Midland Railway Signal Lamp

[paratom]

I am trying to get hold of a detailed drawing of a MR signal lamp so that I can produce a detailed model of one on my 3D printer. The Wizard Model ones are too crude for my liking. I have gone through all the Midland Record magazines to no avail but the Midland Study Centre does have one but unfortunately the resolution isn't high enough for me to work from. If anybody can furnish me with one I will be able to reward them with some 3D prints in their chosen scale.

Thomas

 

[Paul Cram]

The only drawing I can find is on page 47 of Gearge Dow's Midland Record.

 

[AndyB]

I am trying to get hold of a detailed drawing of a MR signal lamp so that I can produce a detailed model of one on my 3D printer. The Wizard Model ones are too crude for my liking. I have gone through all the Midland Record magazines to no avail but the Midland Study Centre does have one but unfortunately the resolution isn't high enough for me to work from. If anybody can furnish me with one I will be able to reward them with some 3D prints in their chosen scale.

Thomas

Are you referring to item 11379 in the MRSC collection?
If you're not local enough to Derby to go an photograph it in higher resolution for yourself, I'm sure quick request to the SC coordinator would get you what you're after.

Andy

 

[paratom]

The only drawing I can find is on page 47 of Gearge Dow's Midland Record.

The only drawing I can find is on page 47 of Gearge Dow's Midland Record.

Hi Paul if you were referring to Midland Record what number were you referring to. Thanks.

Thomas

 

[Tony Overton]

Can I ask, what period of lamp are you looking for? A pre 1905 Woodward period round lamp or lamps introduced post 1905 during the Acfield period, the Adlake lamps? Also, I'm presuming you mean a running line signal lamp not a ground signal lamp.

 

[paratom]

Are you referring to item 11379 in the MRSC collection?
If you're not local enough to Derby to go an photograph it in higher resolution for yourself, I'm sure quick request to the SC coordinator would get you what you're after.

Andy

Hi Andy thanks for your reply. Yes I was referring to 11379 in the collection which unfortunately is not available to download in high resolution. I have downloaded some other drawings of Midland signals that have the lamps on them but not in such great detail. In 4mm the detail of a signal lamp would probably be lost to most onlookers but maybe not in 7mm. I believe some of the lamps were round like the Wizard Model ones but that is another area of research best left for a rainy day. I will contact the MSC to see if they can do a high resolution scan of the drawing. Thanks.

Thomas

 

[Paul Cram]

Hi Paul if you were referring to Midland Record what number were you referring to. Thanks.

Thomas

No I was referring to Midland Style. HMRS publication isbn 0 902835 02 5

 

[paratom]

Can I ask, what period of lamp are you looking for? A pre 1905 Woodward period round lamp or lamps introduced post 1905 during the Acfield period, the Adlake lamps? Also, I'm presuming you mean a running line signal lamp not a ground signal lamp.

Hi Tony I haven't decided if my layout will be pre 1906 or after. The Midland Railway simplified the the painting and lining of their stock after 1906 so it could be after 1906 to make painting and lining of the stock easier. I didn't realise they changed the shape of their running line lamps after a certain period. I will also need a few ground signals for the layout. I would imagine that it wasn't an overnight change and there would have been a mixture of the two for a period. Were the Adlake lamps a standard lamp that other companies used? Thanks.

Thomas

 

[paratom]

No I was referring to Midland Style. HMRS publication isbn 0 902835 02 5

Thanks Paul I have a copy of that publication.

Thomas

 

[AndyB]

Hi Andy thanks for your reply. Yes I was referring to 11379 in the collection which unfortunately is not available to download in high resolution. I have downloaded some other drawings of Midland signals that have the lamps on them but not in such great detail. In 4mm the detail of a signal lamp would probably be lost to most onlookers but maybe not in 7mm. I believe some of the lamps were round like the Wizard Model ones but that is another area of research best left for a rainy day. I will contact the MSC to see if they can do a high resolution scan of the drawing. Thanks.

Thomas

Thomas,
It looks as though it is framed so unfortunately won't be able to be put through our large format scanner. But Dave (SC Coordinator) has the facilities to photograph large books, etc (I made him the mount to do so!) so I'm sure he'll be able to do something for you.
Andy

 

[Tony Overton]

Hello Thomas

Without wishing go to deeply into the history side of MR signalling the appointment in 1905 of W.C. Acfield ushered in a new era, with cost savings and new ways of doing things across the Signal Dept.

Dealing with running line signal lamps first.

By the 1890’s a large cylindrical lamp case was fitted to running line signals; a smaller rectangular case being fitted to miniature arm and siding semaphores. Shortly before Acfield’s appointment his predecessor Thomas Woodward had experimented with the new-fangled Adlake long burning signal lamp, an American import and innovation providing a lamp which could burn for over a week without attention - Adlake derives its name from Adams & Westlake of Chicago, a major US manufacturer of lamps. Acfield then commenced to install Adlake lamps across the MR system. Side by side with a MR cylindrical lamp case an Adlake is a very different looking lamp.

Things then get complicated because over time numerous undated versions appeared on the MR and then LMS. By the 1930’s there appears to have been 12 variants in use in the UK, the lamps I understand at some point being manufactured under license in the UK.

Adlake lamps were used by other companies, the Great Central installing them from 1905, but beyond that I don’t have any details.

As you say changes do not happen overnight and photos show this, with the old and the new side by side well into the LMS period and even later.

I don’t know of a dimensioned drawing for any of the Adlake lamps, only photos, and a couple of surviving examples (objects 10711 and 18094-03) which may still be at MSC Derby.

To sum up, even if you choose your post 1906 option cylindrical lamp cases would have still dominated for a considerable period. I would think main lines would have been the first to receive new Adlakes, leaving branch lines, the usual modellers choice, well behind.

Hope the above is of help.

I’ll turn to ground signals in my next post.

Tony

 

[paratom]

Thomas,
It looks as though it is framed so unfortunately won't be able to be put through our large format scanner. But Dave (SC Coordinator) has the facilities to photograph large books, etc (I made him the mount to do so!) so I'm sure he'll be able to do something for you.
Andy

Thanks Andy.

 

[paratom]

Hello Thomas

Without wishing go to deeply into the history side of MR signalling the appointment in 1905 of W.C. Acfield ushered in a new era, with cost savings and new ways of doing things across the Signal Dept.

Dealing with running line signal lamps first.

By the 1890’s a large cylindrical lamp case was fitted to running line signals; a smaller rectangular case being fitted to miniature arm and siding semaphores. Shortly before Acfield’s appointment his predecessor Thomas Woodward had experimented with the new-fangled Adlake long burning signal lamp, an American import and innovation providing a lamp which could burn for over a week without attention - Adlake derives its name from Adams & Westlake of Chicago, a major US manufacturer of lamps. Acfield then commenced to install Adlake lamps across the MR system. Side by side with a MR cylindrical lamp case an Adlake is a very different looking lamp.

Things then get complicated because over time numerous undated versions appeared on the MR and then LMS. By the 1930’s there appears to have been 12 variants in use in the UK, the lamps I understand at some point being manufactured under license in the UK.

Adlake lamps were used by other companies, the Great Central installing them from 1905, but beyond that I don’t have any details.

As you say changes do not happen overnight and photos show this, with the old and the new side by side well into the LMS period and even later.

I don’t know of a dimensioned drawing for any of the Adlake lamps, only photos, and a couple of surviving examples (objects 10711 and 18094-03) which may still be at MSC Derby.

To sum up, even if you choose your post 1906 option cylindrical lamp cases would have still dominated for a considerable period. I would think main lines would have been the first to receive new Adlakes, leaving branch lines, the usual modellers choice, well behind.

Hope the above is of help.

I’ll turn to ground signals in my next post.

Tony

Thanks Tony. I’m always impressed when I come across people who can be so knowledgeable about something that most modellers probably don’t give much thought to. I’m hoping to produce these lamps in clear resin with a hole in the bottom for a micro LED if I can find one small enough for 4mm. I had thought about fibre optic cable but bending it at right angles I think would damage it.

Thomas

 

[Stephen Freeman]

Thanks Tony. I’m always impressed when I come across people who can be so knowledgeable about something that most modellers probably don’t give much thought to. I’m hoping to produce these lamps in clear resin with a hole in the bottom for a micro LED if I can find one small enough for 4mm. I had thought about fibre optic cable but bending it at right angles I think would damage it.

Thomas

The way to do it if you wish to use fibre optic is described in a Railway Modeller article, quite some years ago "pipe your light". You do have to be careful with the stuff not to get any glue/paint on it. I do have some but normally prefer to use smd leds as they are brighter. Wrong scale I know but Scale Signal Supply do quite a nice lamp body of the square variety in lost wax brass for 7mm scale.

 

[Tony Overton]

Thomas

If it helps herewith attached is a copy of an un-dimensioned drawing of a MR cylindrical lamp case.

It comes from the P. Larkham collection of MR signal component drawings, drawings drawn by Pat Larkham in the 1950’s and 60’s from a meticulous examination of numerous surviving MR signals; some drawings are dimensioned and these may help you with other components.

My view with all my modelling is if the information is out there and available lets gets things right, don't guess, do some research first.

Tony

 

[paratom]

Thomas

If it helps herewith attached is a copy of an un-dimensioned drawing of a MR cylindrical lamp case.
View attachment 172510
It comes from the P. Larkham collection of MR signal component drawings, drawings drawn by Pat Larkham in the 1950’s and 60’s from a meticulous examination of numerous surviving MR signals; some drawings are dimensioned and these may help you with other components.

My view with all my modelling is if the information is out there and available lets gets things right, don't guess, do some research first.

Tony

Thanks Tony just what I was looking for. I will be able to work out the dimensions from the MRSC signal drawings that show the lamps on the signal. Will probably do a square one as well to see how it turns out. While on the subject of signals would the hight of the signal from rail hight have been the same from the platform hight, .ie. minus the hight of the platform from rail hight.

Thomas

 

[Tony Overton]

Sorry, I forgot to say, the P. Larkham drawings are held at the Midland Railway Study Centre, Derby - Reference: 88-PAL-125 & 126

Thanks Tony just what I was looking for. I will be able to work out the dimensions from the MRSC signal drawings that show the lamps on the signal. Will probably do a square one as well to see how it turns out. While on the subject of signals would the hight of the signal from rail hight have been the same from the platform hight, .ie. minus the hight of the platform from rail hight.

Thomas

Thomas I'll need to get paperwork out to answer your height question. Be in touch later today, hopefully.

 

[paratom]

Sorry, I forgot to say, the P. Larkham drawings are held at the Midland Railway Study Centre, Derby - Reference: 88-PAL-125 & 126

Thomas I'll need to get paperwork out to answer your height question. Be in touch later today, hopefully.

OK thanks.


Thomas

 

[Tony Overton]

While on the subject of signals would the hight of the signal from rail hight have been the same from the platform hight, .ie. minus the hight of the platform from rail hight.

Thomas

Evening Thomas
Reading your question again I realised I had confused myself, realising what you were actually asking.

Put simply no.

Signals varied in height according to the location and what obstructed the view of the arm/s from a locomotive cab; curves, platform canopies and bridges being the main culprits. So there are no standard heights.

On a model it’s a case of mimicking the prototype by looking where a signal is needed and then ‘sighting’ the arm/s on it to use a modern term. Imagine yourself on the footplate of a model loco and judge how well you can see a signal arm and then adjust the post height up or down. A station platform makes no difference. Even alter the configuration if necessary to improve’ sighting’. Ask the question would a bracketed arm, or even an under slung arm, be better than a straight post signal for example. I applied this approach to a layout I was helping to signal some years ago and even went to the trouble of making an adjustable jig to represent signals as I moved about the layout.

It was quite an eye opener. By going to all this trouble we are getting closer to signalling our layouts prototypically. Some folk however may think this a bit OTT, but it’s worth it I think.

Tony

 

[Tony Overton]

Morning Thomas

Turning now to ground signals.

Prior to 1900 the MR had installed rotary ground disc signals (one design but with two methods of mounting) – as with some running line signals, where a supply was available some rotary ground signals were also gas lit. Circa 1900 the MR began introducing the ‘Frost’ design of miniature arm ground signal - attributed to J. Frost, MR Signal Works Manager. On the appointment of Acfield he took the Frost ground signal and redesigned it; for ease I’ll refer to it as the ‘Acfield’ design. It seems only small numbers of ‘Frost’ design ground signals were installed, being quickly superseded on new installations by the ‘Acfield’ design. One advantage of these two designs over the rotary disc signal was that where multiple routes needed to be signalled variants were manufactured with stacked arms.
Again, as with signal lamps, photos show that all three designs would go on to be found side by side across the system for many years after introduction, with odd ‘Frost’ and rotary ground signals even surviving into the 1960’s.

The above is a very simplified history. Could you give me an idea of which design of ground signal suits your needs best so I can provide more targeted information and photos, though it would be accurate to have examples of all the designs on a post 1906 MR period layout. I also have access to a few dimensioned and undimensioned drawings for some of these ground signals.

Hope the above helps.

Cheers
Tony