Removing the screws in Slaters wheels

[Marc Dobson]

I have a slaters Midland 0-6-0T that I want to re wheel from FS to S7 and replace the motor and gear box. But I have a small problem the the screws holding the wheels on have had there alan key holes stripped. Does anyone have a solution?
Marc

 

[Renovater]

Takes courage but you could put a slot on them with a disc and then use an ordinary screwdriver.

 

[Bill Campbell]

Hi Marc

One of the methods is to use a well worn (so you have a smaller diameter) slitting disc to cut a slot in the face of the screw taking care not to damage the brass wheel centre. A plain screwdriver can then be used to unscrew.

Just occurred to me - if you are prepared to modify the plain screwdriver so that the end is filed to a curve matching the slot that has been cut it should give better purchase on the screw.

Whichever method you choose it is advisable to replace the screws with new.

Regards.

 

[michael080]

Hi Marc,

not without destroying the screw. Determine the diamter of the threaded hole, subtract 0.2mm and drill out the screw. A lathe or a pillar drive helps to get a hole that is in line with the axis and screw. The remaining "threaded tube" should come out together with the drill. Choosing a slightly smaller drill bit protects the thread in the axis.

Michael

 

[chigley]

If your not using the axles again, just drill the heads of in a pillar or similar, put the axles to one side for a later day

 

[Marc Dobson]

The plan is to replace the wheels with S7 ones from the stores them machine these ones in slow time.
Looks like it's the slitting disc.
Marc

 

[oldravendale]

This is all very helpful. I have a friend's "Hall" here which had one driver where the screw had come out and jammed the coupling rods. Easily fixed. But on the opposite wheel I suspect the screw has been Loctited in. The idea of putting the wheel/axle on a pillar drill is all very well but the chassis might well get in the way. The thoughts here about a slot and then a large screwdriver sounds just the job. Actually, having sorted the loose screw it may not be necessary to remove the opposing wheel, but I'll file the suggestion away for future use.

Brian

 

[adrian]

It depends on the age of the wheel - the last set of wheels I got from Slaters was actually a torq socket, so whilst an allen key would work it would round off quite quickly whereas you'll get a better fit from a torq driver.

Some photos here #169

Torq driver I use

 

[Marc Dobson]

The wheels are about 25 years old possible older as I got the loco in the early 90:s.
Marc

 

[spikey faz]

Could you grip the axle carefully in a vice and then try and tap the screw round with a centre punch? It's worked in the past for me, admittedly on full size engines, but it might work.

Mike

 

[simond]

This is all very helpful. I have a friend's "Hall" here which had one driver where the screw had come out and jammed the coupling rods. Easily fixed. But on the opposite wheel I suspect the screw has been Loctited in. The idea of putting the wheel/axle on a pillar drill is all very well but the chassis might well get in the way. The thoughts here about a slot and then a large screwdriver sounds just the job. Actually, having sorted the loose screw it may not be necessary to remove the opposing wheel, but I'll file the suggestion away for future use.

Brian

Loctite??? ye gods!

If a whhel comes loose (and it shouldn't), there's probably a good reason (like the wheel is wobbling on the axle) which needs fixing.

Loctite just covers up the real issue. And anyone who uses it on the crankpins is doomed to an expensive fix.

 

[oldravendale]

My interpretation of the situation, Simon. I'm helping someone with a coarse scale garden railway he's trying to resurrect from dereliction after his father's death some five years ago. Sadly his father had Alzheimers for several years beforehand so the railway has not seen any use for probably ten years or more. Actually the owner of the railway has limited interest in it but his son does so the work we're doing is really for him. As an electronics engineer he has, however, built a new analogue control panel.

Doubtless the chap could have got hold of someone competent but I'm bodging for him until he finds that paragon.

For the above reasons we don't actually know that the wheels have been Loctited in place. So far driving wheels have come loose on two of the locos but on the Hall one wheel is loose but I simply cannot undo the other one and have already made the Slaters key in to spaghetti (very al dente). The owner of the railway said, in a throwaway moment that it had probably been Loctited in. Perhaps, in his declining years, that's what his father was prone to do. Who knows? The loco is beautifully and probably scratch built and has Slaters FS wheels but it runs quite sweetly (when it runs!) on the coarse scale track.

That's the background. I met the owner only this year so have very limited history. He had already reinstated two of the tracks outside (using Peco) and we're hoping to reinstate the remaining two in 2023. After all, I have absolutely nothing else to do.

Here are a few photos taken on my phone during one of the hottest days of the year. Fortunately his mother makes wonderful ginger cake and endless cups of tea so I was well sustained.....

Brian

Oops - apologies for the diversion to a thread about removing wheels.....

 

[chigley]

nice one Brian

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Slater's axle screws are 6 B.A. so a 2.3mm drill is best used if you want to drill out the screws, this will clear the threads.

Col.

 

[simond]

Sorry if I appeared snappy, I’ve seen (and repaired) models (and engineered assemblies at work) with Loctite where it doesn’t belong, and it’s never going to end well. Great stuff in the right place. But throw away the bits if it’s in the wrong place, carelessly applied, the thing isn’t properly tightened or is misassembled, or if it just needs taking apart to get serviced.

Heat will get it apart, but that’s not an option with Slaters wheels. David LO Smith published a couple of “this is how I fixed it” cases where his skills with the milling machine and lathe saved the wheels, but at a cost in time & effort.

atb
Simon

 

[oldravendale]

Not snappy at all, Simon. Very justified in fact. I just felt it needed some explanatory background. I just wonder what I've got myself in to!.

Brian

 

[Joe's Garage]

Lovely project though Brian, sweeping curves and long trains! Very nice control panel as well.
All the best
Julian

 

[michael080]

Simon's right., in many cases Loctite ==> doom, but on the other hand, there is more than one type of Loctite. Type 221 or 222 are low strenght types that may be useful in some cases. I have been using it to fix excentric cranks.

Michael

 

[markjj]

Seeing Adrian's comment above reminded me of how we got rounded off Countersunk allen head metric screws out in my last few jobs. A Torx driver tapped into an allen key hole often works as the splines grip the sides. If it's a bit loose grind the end off slightly so you go into the tapered part. Slaters screws are soft compared to Stainless ones so it should work even better. If you grind it down it means sacrificing a Torx driver but they can be brought very cheaply.
If it's been loctited in you can apply a little bit of heat with a soldering iron to the head of the screw it doesnt take much to soften the loctite enough to move. Just use a small pointed bit in the middle of the screw though.

 

[mickoo]

Loctite is not the end of the world, it just depends on what type they've used.

Loctite is actually a trade name and they have hundreds of different adhesives, it's a bit like calling all vacuum cleaners 'hoovers', they're not.

I use two types of Loctite, both industrial from my previous employment. 603 which will hold crane wheels to shafts, serious heavy tonnage adhesive, it'll hold crank axles just fine. The other is 2400 which is more gentle and is technically called a thread lock adhesive, it's great for top hat bearings and axle screws, it'll hold them in place but easily loosened with the correct tools.

Brian, regarding the Hall, stop faffing around , turn it on it's side, support the underside with cloth to prevent damage and drill out the countersunk head with a 3.5/4 mm drill, you'll get so far and the head will just spin off, flip the model over and do the same the other side, if you can get the coupling rods off (do this after the drilling as you can grip another wheel and the rods will stop the one your drilling spin around when the drill breaks through) then both wheels will come off the axle just fine. Replace the axle and new screws and off you go. The frames won't get in the way at all as you're working outside of them.

You may actually find that the local heat from the drilling and vibration is enough to loosen the screw and it'll start to unwind, I've had that a few times.

Your screws may not have been fixed in place, it's not uncommon for the screw to rust in the axle, I've had a few of those, given this is a garden railway it may just have rusted solid, you could try a squirt of WD40 and leave it for a few hours and then try to get the screw out. Personally I'd not waste the time, drill it out, fit new axle, go down the pub.

All the other ideas are lovely but sometimes you just have to keep it simple and agricultural.

Here's one I made earlier.



Your loose wheels will probably be due to one of two primary causes, the first (least likely) is burs on the square end of the shaft when assembled, they've now rubbed off over time and the wheel has settled onto the shoulder and is sloppy.

Second and more likely, the countersink in the axle end is not deep enough and when the screw is tightened up it does not grip or hold the wheel in place. To resolve that you'll need to deepen the countersink....best done in a lathe with the correct countersink bit to match the Slaters screw head.

There is a possible third option, swarf or debris in the bottom of the screw thread which is stopping the screw from fully tightening.