7mm US model dabblings

[Steph Dale]

...I can't ascertain if all the NAR units were the same as yet.

They were. They all came from the same batch and have the same class.

Were the cab fronts built angled or was it a CN(?) mod?

All the CN GP9s were originally high-hood, the angled front was added when the noses were dropped and the locos 'rebuilt, modernised' (the 'rm' in the designation GP9rm) and are therefore a unique CN feature. Even the noses only bear superficial similarity to other methods of lowering the nose. A similiar cab front was also fitted to some SD40s, which I've seen described variously as SD40u, SD40r or SD40rm. All the same thing; locos 6000-6028

Steph

 

[mickoo]

They were. They all came from the same batch and have the same class.

Steph

Then I wonder why the fan differences?

Only four were re-manufactured to GP9rm status, the other six were converted to slugs. On the NAR they originally had only two 48" fans but during rebuild it appears 7221 and 7225 have collected older radiator, engine and electrical cabinet casings with 36" fans, they were some of the first early ones done back in 1985, 4131 and 4132 were processed much later in 1991.

If you start adding grills, covers, battery box sides, steps, cab doors, engine room filter, etc you start to work up a nice RC GP9 conversion etch, throw in the fuel and retention tanks and there's probably just enough space for a new cab, though it might be easier to just try and graft on a new etched front with roof extension. On the winterization hatches the 36" fans remain intact underneath, on the 48" set up the fan cover appears removed, leaving on the hub, blades and shroud, the winterization hatch effectively becoming the new cover; but I need more photos to be sure. In short if this is true then you don't need a second 48" fan cover, just scratch a new 48" fan and shroud under a new etched winterization hatch.

Some engines have the under cab compartments extended on the engineers side at the front end, possibly a tool locker or additional storage locker.

Some dropped noses appear flat, others with a very shallow slope (2-3") front to rear but that might be optical illusions from the photo angles, either way with a dropped nose you'd need to do some work on the front truck pivots, it might clear the truck itself but I doubt it'll clear the support bracket and the retention horns or definitely off the menu.

MD

 

[Steph Dale]

Actually, I'm going to back-pedal from that. Same class yes (GR-17za), but bizarrely two different build styles. Dates are quoted as '57 and '58 so must have been across the change from Phase 2 to Phase 3.

I gave up wondering about conversion etches for the 'rm - nearly everything is different from the Red Caboose model so if I do one in 1:48 it'll be the full works; either etch or scratchbuilt with etched details. You're just beginning to start teasing out the variations. When modelling in HO it reached a point where I gave up trying to work out how to do the conversion (from P2K) and when Kaslo came out with their HO scale kits I sprung for a couple of those. Even then, they're not perfect; the basic shell is based on the one off that was rebuilt from a GP7, so the door heights are all over the place. The etch is oversized on some details too - fitting the numberboards and class lights on the cab front got very crowded.

Steph

 

[mickoo]

Steph, yes two build dates but both still have 48" fans as built if the photos I've dredged up are right.

4132 comes from the 57 batch, the other three (4131, 7221, 7225) from the 58 batch, 7221 & 7225 being the newest would hardly revert back to the 36" fan set up?

Nearly everything? we must be looking at different engines then I'm looking at 4131 CN4131GB_Vaughan_050915 and the RC model side by side and there really isn't much difference, same doors, same louvres, same latches same fuel fill points.

Changes are the cab front of course, dropped nose, conversion to 48" fans and winterization hatch, removal of dynamic brake grid, filter inserted and fan blanked off. New battery box and below cab compartment doors, extended anticlimber structure, new fuel tank; which would be nice as an etch but would more as likely take an hour or two to scratch. A few other bit's need trimming like the skirt but of all the conversions I've had my eye on these past few weeks it's the simplest and easiest one that avoids drastic cutting of the shell for doors and louvres.

Another option is 4018 CN4018GB_Vaughan_050915 requiring only one set of louvres to be cut and shut and retention of the full RC roof fan set up. Even better the classification lights have been blanked so the cab front is easier to work with, same at the rear I suspect and the battery box compartment is not extended on 4013.

Mind, I've probably missed something really obvious, I usually do

 

[Steph Dale]

Steph, yes two build dates but both still have 48" fans as built if the photos I've dredged up are right.

4132 comes from the 57 batch, the other three (4131, 7221, 7225) from the 58 batch, 7221 & 7225 being the newest would hardly revert back to the 36" fan set up?

Nearly everything? we must be looking at different engines then...

As rebuilt the fans are a case of 'anything goes' so it's possible a 48" fan loco could come out of shops with 36" fans, if you get to the point of tracking through the numbers you'll see what I mean. I'm struggling to find too many pictures of NAR GP9s in absolutely original condition, but this page has them in CNR ownership: 4600s - GP9 if you haven't found it already.

Yep, I suspect I'm looking at different engines than you (!!), 7069 was one of my targets. The only GP9 I saw in Canada, at Trois Rivieres in Quebec. The other one I was looking at doing was 4115...

In terms of details you've lit upon a one-off*, in the same way I could say the Kaslo kit is 'correct'; it is for one loco! In terms of doing a loco that's been with CN from new and rebuilt as a GP9rm you've got the whole of the cab and nose area, steps, pilots, anticlimbers, long nose end, brakegear, bodyside louvres (and a couple of doors/latches) and modify the brake blister, fuel tank and that's just the big handful stuff, if you're doing an ex-lightweight unit the frame needs changing too. I reckon I can knock out a couple of rectangles of material for the basic body easier than prepping an existing one and lo - scratchbuilt model.

Steph

*May not actually be a one off, I concede, but there can't more than a handful. As Fraser pointed out earlier, all CN's GP9s were built with an unusual arrangement of grilles to clear the original name 'banner' when in green livery.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

If you don't want to too much work initially, then start with the CN 4500 series GP9 GR-17g......

 

[mickoo]

As rebuilt the fans are a case of 'anything goes' so it's possible a 48" fan loco could come out of shops with 36" fans, if you get to the point of tracking through the numbers you'll see what I mean. I'm struggling to find too many pictures of NAR GP9s in absolutely original condition, but this page has them in CNR ownership: 4600s - GP9 if you haven't found it already.

Yep, I suspect I'm looking at different engines than you (!!), 7069 was one of my targets. The only GP9 I saw in Canada, at Trois Rivieres in Quebec. The other one I was looking at doing was 4115...

In terms of details you've lit upon a one-off*, in the same way I could say the Kaslo kit is 'correct'; it is for one loco! In terms of doing a loco that's been with CN from new and rebuilt as a GP9rm you've got the whole of the cab and nose area, steps, pilots, anticlimbers, long nose end, brakegear, bodyside louvres (and a couple of doors/latches) and modify the brake blister, fuel tank and that's just the big handful stuff, if you're doing an ex-lightweight unit the frame needs changing too. I reckon I can knock out a couple of rectangles of material for the basic body easier than prepping an existing one and lo - scratchbuilt model.

Steph

*May not actually be a one off, I concede, but there can't more than a handful. As Fraser pointed out earlier, all CN's GP9s were built with an unusual arrangement of grilles to clear the original name 'banner' when in green livery.

I got tired of walking to the mountain, it was a long way away, so I decided to meet it half way and pick an engine that matched what I had with the minimum of work.

If you don't want to too much work initially, then start with the CN 4500 series GP9 GR-17g......

There is an easier option, put it back in the box and then I don't have to do any work, problem solved

 

[Steph Dale]

I got tired of walking to the mountain, it was a long way away, so I decided to meet it half way and pick an engine that matched what I had with the minimum of work.


There is an easier option, put it back in the box and then I don't have to do any work, problem solved

Hehe, fair enough!
I've spent the last hour working out whether I could bash a lightweight GP9 from an Atlas SW9/1200 chassis and a Red Caboose GP9. The answer, it appears, is a cautious 'yes'.

Steph

 

[mickoo]

Hehe, fair enough!
I've spent the last hour working out whether I could bash a lightweight GP9 from an Atlas SW9/1200 chassis and a Red Caboose GP9. The answer, it appears, is a cautious 'yes'.

Steph

See, I think that option is way more complex than the GP9rm conundrum lol.

The problem is, if you're not careful, you can find so many reasons 'not' to do something to reach that 100% goal that you run the risk of stagnating and doing nothing

For me, I'd rather accept a good 90% from a yard away for the RC GP9 in what ever guise it is, hence not getting overly beat up over the etched grills, radiator shutters and brake slack adjusters for example. I have no issue with those that do and in other models I'd do the same, but the GP9 is supposed to be a quick and playful thing.

Having said all of that, if we change topic to the GE GEVO series, AC4400W, ET44AC or whatever (insert model of your choice), then we're on a higher, almost spiritual plain, time is irrelevant, completion too (though it would be nice to finish at least one of them); here, we're talking about the journey from research to problem solving and creation.
I did look at MTH's Premier versions and I'm kind of tempted, primarily so I can 'have' one right now, but it'd never compete or replace the 'real' project and I know the table top curve restrictions modelled underneath would drive me quite insane.

For the GP9 I have about a dozen small grainy detail shots, so even if I wanted to follow the spiritual path of the GEVO, I can't, I've failed at step one....research. I'm sure given enough time and patience I'd get a little more but nice as GP9's are, they're not GEVOs For the GP9 time is important and completion too.

The hardest part is keeping the two ethos apart and not let either taint the other. Sometimes I do wonder if I, and maybe others too, make self restraining boxes that we perhaps ought not or necessarily need too

And all that spuffle is proof enough that it's easier to do nothing than something, so I'd best get back to the GP9 drag boxes and achieve something before the movie starts

 

[JasonD]

Skip down to the next para if you're feeling guilty that you're on here rather than getting those castellated nut pins done. Reminds me of a favourite Peanuts cartoon strip, where Charlie Brown is agonising over three frames how to make his life better so he can be more valuable to the world and ... and Lucy says "we've had French Fries at our house three times this week!" Nobody here, phew, good.

O-scale is forgiving. Build something super-detailed in an old TV set, or RTR all around the garden and into the shed - and EVERYTHING in between. Model railways as a hobby is the key. One hobby? You must be joking - engineering, operation, painting, history, geography, you've heard this all before. My AtlasO D&H C424 has the wrong fuel tank (apart from being gauged incorrectly) but I've got used to it, so maybe I won't bother to change it, mainly because the Weaver RS3 I'm converting into a RS3u has taken such a looooong time, including converting its fuel tank to its smaller profile.

Where did that para come from? Anyway, I have found the other Red Caboose relevant sprues and I have 5 spare sets (4 already packed) with
the sprue that holds the fan blades and base rings (Mickoo's comment). Handrail sets and instruction sheets available too.

I bought an MTH GE ES44 to test Protosound 3 with my NCE DCC system and it works. No immediate reason to keep it although I like it - but needs modern rolling-stock. It's a fixed pilot model, scale length trucks, have a closer look if you want. Eeeee, dog time again!
Jason

 

[Jordan]

I bought an MTH GE ES44 to test Protosound 3 with my NCE DCC system and it works. No immediate reason to keep it although I like it - but needs modern rolling-stock. It's a fixed pilot model, scale length trucks, have a closer look if you want. Eeeee, dog time again!
Jason

How on earth do you work out if an MTH loco is a true 2-rail loco, with fixed pilots, proper long handrails etc??
MTH locos I've seen advertised as "2-rail" online (I've never seen an MTH loco for real) seem to be 3-rail models, with all the usual horrors that entails, & just come with a drop-in replacement set of 2-rail wheelsets.

 

[Overseer]

A little progress on the Canadian Pacific GP9u. It is quite pleasant to spend the odd half hour cutting up plastic and sticking it back together. It should end up reasonably accurate. I wasn't going to put in etched mesh but the CP used a different shape expanded mesh which I found a close copy of and I thought a bit more representation of the rotating shutters would look better so opened them out. Gears are on order of for the mechanism. It does lead to more distractions, I now know more about CP and CN locos and rolling stock than I ever felt I needed to. A light weight CN GP9 is tempting, as is a SWEEP, or more correctly a SW1200RSm with shortened GP9 hood on a SW1200 frame. A loco needs at least one piece of rolling stock so I also bought a CP boxcar from the Atlas online specials, it came without trucks or couplers which suits me as they would have been replaced anyway and seems to be quite accurate for a small number of CP boxcars so will be renumbered to match. Lots still to do on the GP9u but no rush on this one.

One thing I need help with are handrails. The handrails supplied in the kit are nice acetal mouldings which I would like to use but the CP had a different arrangement at the ends because of the vertical steps, and the left side behind the cab is different as well. I don't think I will be able to modify the acetal handrails because nothing will stick it apart from heat. So who makes nice fine handrail stanchions?

 

[Steph Dale]

That's looking good, Fraser. I'm sure Dave will be along shortly with recommendations for suitable stantions.

I'm just pondering ordering a spare sprue of the Red Caboose ones from Jason and seeing whether I can find a caster who can turn them into brass for me.

I'm also on the look out for an Atlas SW so I can start looking at what's actually required to do the SW1200rsm (SWeeP). There are other locos which appeal, but I'm going to keep an open mind and see what turns up. The RSD17 is quite high up the list, but so too a C424, RS18, GMD-1, lightweight GP9...

Decisions, decisions.

Steph

 

[mickoo]

How on earth do you work out if an MTH loco is a true 2-rail loco, with fixed pilots, proper long handrails etc??
MTH locos I've seen advertised as "2-rail" online (I've never seen an MTH loco for real) seem to be 3-rail models, with all the usual horrors that entails, & just come with a drop-in replacement set of 2-rail wheelsets.

I think the pilots are remove able and can then be fixed onto the chassis..... or is that Atlas? I think it also depends on which brand name it is as well, I think the premier range has that option but rail king might not. Like you I've only seen MTN on line and not in the flesh, I've plenty of Atlas O but not MTH US, I've a DB TRAXX model from MTH but that's aimed at a different market so has fixed pilots and is pure 2 rail.

 

[JasonD]

Jordan, you're right, it's a shame there is no focal point for judging O-scale (especially 3-rail manufacturers') models against their (supposed) prototypes. I was lucky with the ES44, the wife did her shrug and youbettergothen routine and I inspected the MTH loco at the Indianapolis O-scale Meet. If it makes you feel any better(!), I got the GE demonstrator version and it came with a matching car, but instead of the proper 'test' car built in a smooth-side passenger car, it's just a postal car repaint stil complete with mailbag catcher.... Sharp knife, plastic card and Foo Fighters atmosphere needed. I'll take some pics.

Talking of which, I'll include pics of GP handrail posts I think I got from P&D. Whatever, P&D and Des Plaines always worth a call. I signed up with 18185 many years ago and calls are 1p/min yes 1p from land-lines to US (and many other countries).
Jason

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

So who makes nice fine handrail stanchions?

I used P&D Hobbies PDP2100K Stanchion Kit. They are cast brass and there are enough to complete a GP9.

 

[JasonD]

Thanks Dave, btw do you want the other sprue type (fans and base section, etc) to go with the fan tops?
Jason

 

[Overseer]

I used P&D Hobbies PDP2100K Stanchion Kit. They are cast brass and there are enough to complete a GP9.

View attachment 68750

Thanks Dave. That is probably the solution. I will have to try not to order too many other things, could get expensive.

 

[mickoo]

Not much of an update, just trying to get my head back around 3D modelling.

Started with the easy stuff, a GEVO tank, in reality it'll be etched but it's a good exercise to start with.



Boyed by what looked something like a fuel tank I tried something harder, the air tanks.



Seems to work ok, nothing too untoward so onto something a bit harder, a simple chimney, the B1 in fact.





Not bad, but for some reason Autocad will not extrude the flange at the base nor will it vary the fillet radius at the base, neither can you take the upper fillet line and flatten it which would of course vary the radius. Having not touched 3D for ten years or Autocad 3D ever before this morning it's a steep learning curve, everything 3DSM did in seconds just seems such a chore and it's a crying shame 3DSM couldn't handle scale model parts, but it is what it is.

The tank took ten minutes, the reservoir about 30 and the chimney, well that's version 35 billionth millionth what ever in thirteen hours, you'd think I'd learn and see the warning sighs lol.

Autocad is very good at many things, but complex curved items in 3D seem to be it's nemesis, how people render cars and other stuff is beyond me at the moment, I'll give it another day and probably put it back in the box.

MD

 

[Steph Dale]

Mick,

The chimney doesn't look too bad - although I'm working through the same problem at the moment in TurboCAD. I suspect the true enormity of the problem you've got is only really apparent from square on front and sides...

Keep at it - I'm sure there's a solution there somewhere.

Steph