7/8ths scale Slate Wagons

[Martin Shaw]

Afeter the arrival of the 7/8ths Bagnall in the autumn I have been contemplating a rake of slate wagons so a kit arrived as a try out to see whether a rake made sense. It came with wheels I didn't care for and the only suitable ones I had were on O gauge axles. Making two G1 axles is a simple turning exercise as seen in the bottom example and I decided oil blackening was more sensible than paint and a test is shown in the upper example. The only oil I could find in the garage was some 220 bearing oil which at 0deg is not far off steam oil for viscosity and I wonder whether it is entirely suitable for this exercise. The test axle isn't too bad but not wholly successful. Would for example a lower flash point vegetable oil be better. I welcome any thoughts on this.
Regards
Martin

 

[simond]

Martin, the only experience I can offer is blackening coupling hooks.

I hate brass hooks on rolling stock, it looks daft (and is very common, even on expensive, beautifully painted models!) so where I’m building something I use Premier steel hooks, heat them to red and drop them in a little pot of Wahl beard trimmer oil. Other breeds are available.

It’s a light mineral oil, which I use for almost all lubrication of models. It blacks steel perfectly well.

hth
Simon

 

[Rob Pulham]

I have used 3 in 1 oil in the past but now I use more household friendly cooking oil (in my case out of date olive oil). As ever the secret to successful blackening even when heating up, is making sure that the item being blackened is clean before hand.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Thanks Simond and Rob. Whilst listening to my monday evening fix of Cerys I arrived at a conclusion, the axle centre could usefully be blackened whilst the journals will be all but invisible and oiled anyway and therefore won't rust. Whilst I polished the axles with Scotchbrite before blackening I think a chemical clean with Acetone or celly thinners might also be worthwhile. I have ordered 2M of 5mm EN1A which might come tomorrow but at the mo I have no more stock. Once I have decided the procedure it becomes a batch exercise to alleviate boredom. I'll have a further tryout in due course.
Martin

 

[Martin Shaw]

I had a further go at this today using some vegetable oil and a lower temperature, dull red instead of cherry red. I think it was more successful, the blackening is more even although it really is a thin coating at best.


It polished up ok and the journals burnished back to shiny quite easily. The wheels pushed with a drop of super glue, it's all a bit academic as once the wagon side is glued on the wheelsets are trapped.



I made the axles 74mm overall which gives about 2mm endfloat or 1.5mm too much so the production batch axles will be that bit longer. The dimension came from the original Accucraft axles which were a suggestion instead of those supplied in the kit. They are curly spoked all nylon which are undoubtedly more prototypical but the steel wheels will give some additional weight to avoid derailments by privet leaves and similar detritus.

This is the setup in the lathe to press the wheels on, two turned ali mandrels hold the wheels square to the axle and the tailstock provides the urge. Simple stuff really but it works well, wheels with an insulating bush are always a bit of a challenge to keep square. I think thats sorted out all the procedures, when all the bits are here I can crack on.
Martin

 

[Martin Shaw]

For completeness sake, the partially assembled wagon, just to see, you understand. The floor and underframe bits are to be added in due course, I suppose couplings will be needed as well!


At this stage I want to prime all the woodwork but not the wheels or axles I have been labouring over this week so its not glued together yet. The garage is far too cold and damp for painting so this will have to go on hold for a bit but I think it will work well enough so an order for a rake can go to the supplier. These are easy and cheap enough, especially since I don't want the normally supplied axles or wheels, for an initial six to be built and others added later as desire or idiocy demand.

Martin

 

[Martin Shaw]

I see my last post on this was nearly two months ago and things have moved on, forward? Whilst I pondered painting it, one of my least favourite tasks, it sat in limbo until I realised I could get a brushing water based MDF sealer, and final decoration with acrylics meant I needn't hold off further and the assembly was therefore completed, bar couplings which I am still undecided upon. Hooks of some sort and chain seems most likely. I have also ordered a rake of six which will give a reasonable train and I have found a source of dolls house real slates at 1:12 scale which have the advantage of significant weight which will make the engine work reasonably hard.




Laying in front is the stock to make twelve G1 axles to this drawing, there's posh for you.


The other major decision this winter is that the track has to be raised, the knees and back are instructing me to do this but as a separate thread I think.
Martin

 

[PhilH]

bar couplings which I am still undecided upon. Hooks of some sort and chain seems most likely.
Martin

Martin,
Hook and Shackle seem to be the most common type of coupling used on steel slate wagons

Fixed to a buffer as this example at Penrhyn




Fixed direct to the wagon as this Festiniog example




and this GWR one




or alternatively this Festiniog one at the National Slate Museum is a hook and link​

I've used these couplings on my 7/8" scale Penrhyn wagons: https://www.modelearth.net/couplers 7-8.html

 

[Rob R]

I've used these couplings on my 7/8" scale Penrhyn wagons: https://www.modelearth.net/couplers 7-8.html

Rabbit Hole Alert!!!!

 

[timbowales]

And a very interesting rabbit hole it is

 

[Martin Shaw]

Phil
I'm most grateful for your photos illustrating the seemingly myriad ways of connecting wagons together, it is really helpful and hopefully points me at a choice from the model earth website. I'll make a choice and see if I can get some dimensions.
Thanks
Martin

 

[Martin Shaw]

I spent a pleasant and fruitful Sunday turning Fridays bits of bar into axles. Briefly if your interested I devised an order of things to make sure I got 12 as nearly the same as each other as I could.
1. Stock cut to 80mm long.
2. Using a collett chuck face one end and turn journal to length.
3. Reverse in chuck, face other end and measure overall length to determine how much to remove for correct length.
4. Face down to length, zero DRO and turn journal to length.
5. Measure finished item to check conformity to drawing. As it is all dimensions are within a thou or two which is rather more precise than I actually need although I am pleased to have managed that.

The ice cream tub as well as originally providing vital sustenance now has the wheelsets which I could only obtain in 0 gauge hence the need for new axles. They also serve very well as temporary storage for dismantling and building things Pretty neat excuse eh! Blackening tomorrow after a haircut so I have been told.
Martin

 

[simond]

You forgot the “DO NOT SCALE” and “IF IN DOUBT, ASK” memoranda on the drawing…

 

[Fitzroy]

Um, tolerances, too? (sorry, nitpicking!) and edge breakage.

 

[Martin Shaw]

In answer to the clever clogs,
1. There is no scale on the drawing so it is impossible to scale from it.
2. There is no one to ask except me so it would be superfluose.
3. Nearest 20 thou which is more an error than a tolerance but adequate for the application.
4. See top most dimension note which mentions chamfering to break edge.

This would be important if it were proper engineering being done by a proper engineer, but it isn't and I'm not, although I suspect I'll get away with it and it will work any old way. I've been for a haircut as well.
Martin

 

[Martin Shaw]

As a matter of interest since Fitzroy raised the matter I went and measured the centre section of all the axles. This is supposed to be 40.00mm however since it is a derived length by virtue of the manufacturing process it is the most likely to be variable and wrong. It is also critical since it determines the wheel back to back dimension.
Of the 12,
1 is 39.98
3 are 40.00
1 is 40.02
1 is 40.06
6 are 40.08

which gives a variation of 0.01mm or half a thou, and ignorable. Tick.
Martin

 

[PhilH]

Martin,
This may be a daft question, but I'll ask it anyway. Are you aware that Slaters do 7/8" scale wagon wheels for 45mm gauge ?
They do 12" (scale) dia. Hudson, 15" dia. 7 spoke Penrhyn and 18" dia. Festiniog 6 spoke or 6 web.
They also do rather pricey FR slate wagon kits.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Phil
Yes I was, sort of, however perhaps an explanation of my rationale. When I was at my garden railway group in the autumn I rather admired a 7/8ths quarry hunslet and I was therefore put in touch with an individual who was selling one. This didn't appeal however I bought from him a Bagnall instead and I was given a scratchbuilt slate wagon gratis. This was most generous as well as being a rather nice wagon loaded with genuine slate so it weighs a bit and it set me thinking.

The free gift, constructed from wood and plasticard with stick on nuts and bolts, alongside the prototype for the rake. A lovely one off but my patience would run out long before I had finished one, let alone a few.

I thought a rake of slate wagons would go well with the Bagnall so I looked at the trade offerings and found Houston Gate Locomotive Works kits at £23 each or Slaters at £81.43 each. There are one or two others available which for various reasons I rejected. The Slaters kit will produce a far superior model undoubtedly however a rake of seven is to my mind prohibitively expensive and probably too fiddly to build and for my scheme, the alternative rather more palatible. It come with curly spoke nylon/steel wheels from Colin Binnie which are protoypical but rather light so I decided to go with Accucraft wheels to add weight low down and I had them, or so I thought. In the end I didn't but no matter they cost me £9.50 a wagon rather than Slaters at £16 a pop.

Thats the perhaps flawed thinking however at a simple cost comparison, for a rake of seven slate wagons from Slaters would be £567 before you open the boxes, Houston Gate MDF kits plus Accucraft wheels, £153.50. Even allowing for some materials and time making axles it becomes a worth while cost effective exercise.
Martin

 

[PhilH]

​

When the Accucraft Quarry Hunslets came out David Bailey produced several kits for Penrhyn Railway wagons including slate wagons, but unfortunately they were a limited run and soon sold out. At the time (about 10 years ago) with Slaters wheels they worked out at about half the current cost of the Slaters wagons.

There is a forum dealing with 7/8" scale:
Login
Its not open access so you have to join (free) but you might find something of interest.

P.S. if the link doesn't work try: The SE Lounge 7/8"=1'-0" in the search box.

 

[Dog Star]

... I suspect I'll get away with it and it will work any old way. I've been for a haircut as well.

Well, after being for a haircut it ought to work because you have taken a lot off of your mind.