Building the MOK "King Arthur"

[Steph Dale]

And Peter, the MOK kit will make the Urie version as well. In fact it'd probably be a bit easier in the cab department. It's also designed so that it can be built without smoke deflectors. Referring back to Steph's comments earlier, the injectors are (I think) probably more correct for the Urie version.

Good clarification about the Urie loco, Dad. The distinction between the two Chief Engineers' types is the cylinders, large-bore steam pipes and smokebox arrangements, not the just the cab. When I had a dig through your kit I had a look for the Urie steam pipe covers, which I don't recall finding, but see you did (see later post). The Urie (ne Drummond) cab as a modular item also implies that the first ten Maunsell locos (Orders B17 and C17, nos E448-E457) can be built, those that originally had Drummond tenders and Urie cabs. The Drummond tenders were replaced in the fifties, generally with Urie tenders from withdrawn N15s.

The supplied injectors are broadly correct for all N15s and King Arthurs, but there was a move to fit pairs of Ashford injectors (I assume to reduce payments to Messrs Davies and Metcalfe, and Gresham and Craven). It's the Ashford ones which aren't supplied - and apply to your chosen loco from mid '54.

As a further aside, the kit won't easily do any of those that ran with 6-wheel tenders either as they had an Ashford back end (to match the tenders) and the footplate and framing heights are different!

There are other differences in the Urie and Maunsell locos, affecting the front bogie, main frame profile, lubrication regime, steam pipes and smokebox and detail changes to springing and valvegear and most of those changes seem reflected in the kit options. In general, this seems like a stonking kit to build a Scotch Arthur, and particularly Sir Lamiel, and a good one for the other options, but to get it perfect may still require more research and the odd part or another to be modified or replaced. At least we've got the appropriate version of the Drummond tender for the Urie and Maunsell 4-6-0s well in hand now. Oops. Cat, bag...

Steph

Edited 12/05/2020 for clarity around Urie part options in the kit.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your comments, Steph.

I wouldn't dream of challenging your comments! In making my own they were based on information from the instructions and looking at the cabs and smokeboxes provided - I've gone no further than that. Certainly the source of the kit prototype as Sir Lamiel is obvious and some photos of details of Sir Lamiel are in the instructions.

Once again this points out that research is essential to ensure that the raw materials for the loco you wish to build are actually included in the box.

Apologies for providing misleading info which I provided in the honest belief it was correct.

Brian

 

[Ressaldar]

Cracking stuff Brian, nearly on the last lap.

Stay safe and well

regards

Mike

 

[Pencarrow]

Enjoying your build Brian, pity these didn't get down to North Cornwall.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your comments, Mike and Chris. Much appreciated.

Also..... re Steph's comments above and my reply I've just looked at the MOK ad in the Journal and it certainly advises that the King Arthur is for both Urie and Maunsell versions, so I wasn't imagining it after all. I'll have a further look at the bits left over and reference them to Steph's comments, but I know there is only one bogie design provided. There are two smokebox fronts, one designated Urie and one Maunsell, and the door clip locations are provided for both. I'm pretty certain that the cylinders provided are intended to be common across the two types. As I've said already the cab for a Urie loco is also present and there are also smoke deflectors without the cut out for the steam pipe which I've not investigated so I guess it may be possible to build a Urie loco with the parts provided but there should, perhaps, be a health warning and any builder may need to investigate each alternative in detail.

Fortunately mine is a "Scotch Arthur" so well covered by the parts in the kit.

Brian

 

[Steph Dale]

Dad,

Can you post photos of the parts you describe, please and I'll have a gander. It's possible that Dave wasn't fully aware of the difference between the types either! I'll also note again that the differences below the running plate would preclude modelling both types, unless two sets of frames and bogie were included!

Other than the principal dimensions and the boiler, the Urie N15 and Maunsell King Arthur were very different engines.

Steph

 

[SimonT]

Well, they've got different names, so it's obs!

 

[Steph Dale]

Well, they've got different names, so it's obs!

I think that logic only works with Great Western locos.

Steph

 

[Peter Cross]

Were not the early Maunsell KA's built with Urie cabs by mistake?

 

[chigley]

nice build brian, just purchased a 4 mt from dave. should be my next project. still struggling with wc blackmoor vale but getting there. I will leave the A2 till later perhaps

 

[Steph Dale]

Were not the early Maunsell KA's built with Urie cabs by mistake?

Peter,

I think it's difficult to describe them as a 'mistake', when all the design drawings for the B17 and C17 batches clearly show the Urie cab. If you put yourself in a c.1924 mindset, why spend time and effort designing a new cab when the locos were needed urgently? Worth remembering that this cab had actually originated on the larger Drummond locos and Urie hadn't changed it other than in detail for his locos. The first Maunsell Arthur locos were going to work much as the Urie versions were: The need for the Ashford style cab only came about as a consequence of the type being considered for use across the Southern (i.e. not just the Western section). As in my previous post, the differences between Urie and Maunsell locos is around the front end, not the largely-superficial metal box at the back for the driver and fireman.

There are four main phases of construction of the class:

1. Orders N15, P15, L16, N16; Pre-Grouping design with Urie 5000g tender and Urie cab, 'Urie Arthur', which can be built from the MOK kit.
2. Orders B17, C17; modernised Post-Grouping design with (modified) Drummond 4300g tender and Urie Cab, 'Eastleigh Arthur'. Loco can be built from MOK kit, some had tenders swapped for Urie 5000g too.
3. The first modernised locos with the Ashford-pattern cab and Urie 5000g tenders were the North British built 'Scotch Arthur' or 'Scotchmen' group. Can definitely be built from MOK kit, as Dad's model shows.
4. Order E121 were also modernised locos, with Ashford-pattern cab and built with Ashford 6-wheel 3500g tenders. These also seem to be referred to as 'Eastleigh Arthur'. Cannot be built from MOK kit due to the different cab/frame arrangement associated with the Ashford tenders.

It's a complicated class!

Steph

Edited 12/05/2020 for clarity around Urie part options in the kit.

 

[oldravendale]

'ere yar.....

These are the parts I found on a quick run through of bits identified as needed for a Urie version. I've not taken the instructions apart, or searched out every last potential part, but these will give a pretty good flavour.


(Actually I think these next two bits - footplate - are for locos without smoke deflectors)



These castings are identified as specifically for Urie engines. These include the steam pipe covers.


The casting bits shown here are the smokebox door clips.



These are identified as loco springs for the Urie.


And these are the centre springs for the Urie loco.



Make of it what you will!

 

[Steph Dale]

'ere yar.....

These are the parts I found on a quick run through of bits identified as needed for a Urie version. I've not taken the instructions apart, or searched out every last potential part, but these will give a pretty good flavour.

Thanks for that, Dad, it confirms that the most significant option parts for the Urie locos are in the MOK kit. This means that's it's only those with Ashford tenders that are going to be difficult to build with this kit as a starting point.

I've corrected my previous postings where they've needed changing, in case anyone refers to this thread in the future. It's my pleasure to do so! Now then; where's that Alteration Arrangement for the Bulleid front end, he thinks, stroking his beard. Hmm...

Steph

 

[oldravendale]

I'm going to need some help with this......

Unfortunately, for such a refined kit, the lamp irons are etched. Cast are far superior, of course, particularly from the perspective of longevity and I'm a little surprised that these have been omitted. However, against all the positives it's a minor whinge. I've looked at the LG site but there's nothing appropriate there (in fact I have a set of Laurie's SR lamp irons and hoped that there may be an alternative set, but no go.)

Does anyone have any idea where there may be cast versions of these available? For the time being I've used the etched versions which look, I suppose, OK, but those twists and turns are difficult to replicate for both sides of the smokebox. They'll easily come off with a bit of heat if alternatives can be located. I think mine are very nearly there but perfection will not be easy!

Here's where I am right now, and I've included the photo from the instructions which may make the lamp iron type more easily seen. The irons as fitted to the prototype are easily seen in the photo I took at Eastleigh and which is somewhere near the beginning of this thread.

 

[Genghis]

Just been doing Adrian Rowland's Northstar S15: this has cast lamp irons for all except for those on the door, which are etched! So sorry cannot help.

David

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks David. I wonder if they are difficult to cast or, more likely, the market is so small that production is simply not worthwhile.

It's an itch which I may need to scratch but I'm going to leave those lamp irons where they are for a bit and see how I feel about them towards the end of the build. If I still can't live with them they'll come off and be further adjusted - that attachment to the firebox should really be horizontal and they are far from that on my "King Arthur".

The overall shape of them is OK and as has been pointed out they are protected by the smoke deflectors so the risk of damage in use is limited. I'm accepting that I may have to live with them.

Brian

 

[richard carr]

I think they look OK Brian

I would though have drilled them out and added a spigot with some 0.7mm NS wire and soldered them in from the back.

Richard

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Richard.

It's not too late by far to do that. I'll add it to the options.....

Brian

 

[Steph Dale]

If I still can't live with them they'll come off and be further adjusted - that attachment to the firebox....

Firebox!!?! Oh dear, I think you've caught Simon's disease - and this isn't a GWR loco y'know...! Hehe, o' course, there may be other railways that have lamp irons at that end of a loco but not the LSWR or SR ;-)

Steph

 

[SimonT]

My disease and I are very happy together and I don't scratch in public. At least I don't paint my locos Salmon Pink.