1/32 Dark Side, Big Scale

[mickoo]

3/16" axles, with the ends turned down to 1/8".

Thank you, thats interesting, the minimum shaft dia on the existing Aristocraft axles is 5mm, I'll need to retain that to preserve wall thickness for the threaded retention screw fixing in the end. That'll mean a 6mm shaft with 5mm turned down ends and a 5mm bore in the coach wheel, I'm assuming either steel wheels with a plastic center for insulation or plastic hubs with a steel rim, all will be revealed when Pat and his cat deliver the goods so things are begining to look favourable...sort of .

Kindest

 

[mickoo]

Ok Pat and his cat delivered the goods, have to say the coach wheels have the vote, strangely both wheel centers are pretty much the same pattern, the coach wheel is plastic all through with a 8mm boss, the driver is plastic with a brass insert in a 10mm boss.

So, more thinking out the box,

Option 1, new 6mm shaft with 6mm thread on the end, drill coach wheel to appropriate size and thread 6mm, screw on wheel to correct B2B, if required add slim lock nut to rear of wheel to secure (if removal required at a later date) or secure with Loctite or alternative stong but not permanent glue, secure gear wheel to shaft first though!.

Option 2, use wheel existing 3/16" shaft, procure alternative roller bearings for gearbox, current ones are 10mm OD, 6mm bore 3mm thick (thickness can be a little wider if required), find some way to fill 6mm gear wheel center and bore to 3/16" or sleeve shaft for that section in gear wheel.

Option 3, turn existing Aristocrafts tapered axle end to parallel 5mm dia, bore wheels to 5mm and slide fit and use existing retention thread and screw to retain.

Of all the options 3 has the most opportunities for Captain c##k up to make an appearance, securing the Aristo half shafts in a lathe is problematical, there is very little shaft behind the fixing flange to grip on and you'd need a chuck with very good fitting jaws to grip. Given the variability of the fixing flange, shaft lengths and thinness of wall once turned down its going to be difficult to ensure constant B2B on all the axles. Option 3 also requires a lathe...which I do not have.....yet (more on that at a later date) and being an impatient so and so kind of eliminates this option.

Option 2 has promise if alternative bearings can be found (tonight's web trawl), basically 3/16" bore with 10mm OD, the only stickler is sleeving the shaft or filling the gear wheel and boring to 3/16", again a lathe maybe required. We do have a lathe at work, but as you may imagine, given the type of work it has to cope with in the container industry, isn't good for small parts , but would cope with gripping the wheels, hence option 1.

Option 1 seems favourite, drilling the wheels centered on a lathe should be easy enough, or even drilling on a pillar drill may suffice, threading is easy enough and threading 6mm rod even easier. Our stores and materials dept is quite extensive, which reminds me, I have some holes and threads to tap on some stainless steel rod (exposure to salt air you see ) crane 22 tomorrow, 6mm I think?, how fortunate LOL.

Time for tea and a think.

Kindest

 

[Simon Dunkley]

Thank you, thats interesting, the minimum shaft dia on the existing Aristocraft axles is 5mm, I'll need to retain that to preserve wall thickness for the threaded retention screw fixing in the end. That'll mean a 6mm shaft with 5mm turned down ends and a 5mm bore in the coach wheel, I'm assuming either steel wheels with a plastic center for insulation or plastic hubs with a steel rim, all will be revealed when Pat and his cat deliver the goods so things are begining to look favourable...sort of .

Kindest

The coach wheels are as per the wagon wheels, plastic centre, steel tyres.

 

[Steph Dale]

Mick,

I must admit I'm still not entirely sure why you're not persuing NWSL - they're still listing sets for the Aristo SD45 in RP25-172: 2606-6. Even at $55 it'd be worth a punt, surely?

Steph

 

[mickoo]

Mick,

I must admit I'm still not entirely sure why you're not persuing NWSL - they're still listing sets for the Aristo SD45 in RP25-172: 2606-6. Even at $55 it'd be worth a punt, surely?

Steph

Simples, the list is rubbish, half the stock no longer exists, the other half that does...isn't listed, their on line site is a mess. I've been back and forth (email) with them for a couple of weeks now, they do not stock or support 172 profile any more, 236 looks to be on the way out and 270 is all that remains, locomotives this is, wagons and coaches seem to have a few more options but still no 170 I believe, certainly not in stock and I get the gist they're seeing if there's much demand before running a new batch. The 270 is basically exactly what's already on the loco, the only gain is solid NS so they can be turned down if required.
One final fly in the ointment as I found today, and which basically throws all of the above in the bin, the half shafts are a loose fit in the nylon gear and screwed down with three minute screws, a good 75% do not fit square when fitted to the gear wheel, in other words continuing with the existing half shafts is a total waste of time. I think the NWSL Aristo replacement wheels are designed to fit onto the existing half shafts, the USAT ones come with new shafts integeral.

Today I grabbed two of the coach wheels, spun them up on the lathe, bored out to 5mm and added a 6mm thread, grabbed two half axles and cut a 6mm thread on the taper, by using a 2nd cut tap on the wheel it matched the shaft, screwed them on, nice 42.xxxmm B2B (needs fine tuning) spun it up with the motor, horrid gear noise and wheels that look like a badly bashed up kids soapbox kart. Spent hours trying to figure it out (should have been researching lathes) until I rechecked the half shafts, there just plain rubbish. According to sources they are cast!, even the flanges that affix to the gear are different thicknesses. Tested the other two gear boxes which I have not touched, same result, some sides ok, other sides wobble like a drunken penguin. Its not my wheels as I put each one on a straight....ish half axle and its almost fine. To be honest, with a shunting plank of depot layout I'd probably never notice, except now that I know they wobble I'll never be happy.

I'd heard these gearboxes were super quiet and smooth, these three are not, suspect that's a symptom of them being 'gently used' by the Ebay seller and truth be told they're knackered, will pull one of the bogies from the SD45 tomorrow and see if they are any better.

Suspect final solution will be 10mm fine coach wheels, new 3/16" shaft with roller bearings and wheels threaded on and replacement gear boxes, there's plenty of space in the bricks to do this, or new SS 6mm shafts with wheels threaded on and exisitng gear wheels affixed, pack some grease in and they might quieten down and run smoother?.

The 10mm fine do look the dogs danglies when fitted and are almost perfect 1:29 40" wheels so it is the way to go, jut the voyage getting there might be a bit bumpy,

/grump mode off.

Kindest

 

[Dog Star]

/grump mode off

Surely... [/grump mode off]...

Frustration seems to come to mind, that is often an emotion when exploring the unknown roads in the model railway world. Patience and deep-thunk shall help along with a dose of WT banter and advice in equal measure.

regards, Graham

 

[28ten]

Surely... [/grump mode off]...

Frustration seems to come to mind, that is often an emotion when exploring the unknown roads in the model railway world. Patience and deep-thunk shall help along with a dose of WT banter and advice in equal measure.

regards, Graham

Yes, I chuck more than I keep, but to me its about the journey and not necessarily the destination you just have to keep plugging away until it works

 

[Dikitriki]

its about the journey and not necessarily the destination

Good job.

I never seem to reach a destination.

 

[mickoo]

Yes, perhaps it should have read /frustration mode off .

Ok, before exploring wheels and possibilites further its clear I'm short some fundamental tools, aka a mini lathe. I have been planning to get one for some time and now seems as good a time as any with recent experiances.

So simple question, Chester Conqest or SIEG C3 (arc euro trade). Is Arc euro trades post factory set up service really necessary for simple light work I may encounter in gauge 1 electric operations ?, I have no issues stripping down and setting up, providing the source item is good, but I hear that on occasion the source items can be less than ideal and presume in these cases AET replace such components to meet their specifications.

Kindest

Kindest

 

[Simon Dunkley]

So simple question, Chester Conqest or SIEG C3 (arc euro trade). Is Arc euro trades post factory set up service really necessary for simple light work I may encounter in gauge 1 electric operations ?

Hi Mick,

I have no experience of the Chester range, but have experience of Myfords, Unimat SLs and the Sieg C0.

The Sieg C0 has to be fettled/set up at home, but with the C3 you can opt for them to do it for you, at a price. If you do not pay that, then you will need to do some fine finishing, etc, of things like the slides on the beds. Allow a few hours for this, as it shouldn't be hurried, and is a case of fettle-check-fettle-check etc.You also need to be experienced. I would pay for the work to be done, but unfortunately that 400 quid lathe now costs 600 quid. I'd probably go for the taper headstock bearings, too. So, 700 quid, plus some accessories.

For less than the price of a Sieg C3, you could pick up a second hand Myford ML-10, with a few accessories. You would need to have some idea what to look for, though.

For what you want to be doing, I would say that the Unimat SL is too small, as would be similar sized lathes. If you intend to use a form tool (maybe not now, but you might) and you are going to be working on G1 wheels, you really need to be looking at things like the C3, ML10, etc.

HTH

 

[28ten]

The C3 if fine, but it is Chinese, which means you will need to spend some time setting it up. The roller bearings are an essential and arc euro can do that. Given the space I would take an ML10/3 every time, bou also need to balance initial cost vs time to do the mods and cost to get it running properly. Having said that mine has done everything I have asked of it, such as turning 7mm wheel castings and reprofiling wheels, but if you want to part off 1 1/2" steel bar for tyre blanks then its probably not the machine.

 

[mickoo]

To be honest, I'd rather buy new, granted the cost of new will give you a lower spec machine Vz second hand, but second hand tools are not something that sits very well with me, I don't even like using colleges tools when working on cranes together. My envisaged space is small and the C3 fits in there nicely, anything bigger and I have to start rearranging built in book shelves etc.

As far as I can ascertain, most of these mini lathes are Chinese built and if they're anything like our cranes, hit and miss at the best of times, we just paid around £40m for 7 cranes and there's still 4-6 months remedial work after they have left site!.

The fettling to reduce backlash and set up I could probably do, the taper bearings not, nor setting up the tail stock to be true and centered, or the headstock even so, having them do it all sounds like good money to me, just wondered if it actually was, going by Arc Euros spanner grading I'm a good 3/3.5 spanners on machine tools I reckon, so not afraid to do it but feel having someone who really knows may well pay off in the long run, maybe after my 2nd or 3rd lathe I'd do it, but having never set a lathe up before will probably defer to the experts.

What concerns me is that Chester offer basically the same mini lathe and there's no hint of set up being required, I find that hard to believe given the origin of said equipment. I'd allowed £500 for a lathe and £500 for a mill, but its looking like nearer £1k for a lathe after set up and decent tools etc. The money isn't that much of a stickler provided I'm getting value for money, I'd probably also go for a steel gear set as well.

The oft spoken failings of circuit boards or motor controls are no issue, that's my day job so repairing a 500w motor compared to a 0.5Mw (2 per crane) control circuit should present little issue LOL, though it is quite exciting to watch and hear 6000A dump back through the fuses when they crash stop due to power dips in thunder storms or the IGBT mis-fires!.

Anyway, thanks for the input, I'll continue to dig around but Arc Euro seem to be best supplier of the Sieg C3 and I'm am tending toward that, more probably because of Arc Euros site with downloadable detailed paperwork and set up facility.

Kindest

 

[28ten]

If you are looking at a lathe and mill add another £500 for tooling. I picked up a lot micrometers and measuring equipment up off ebay. you can get some really nice imperial equipment at very good prices.
Any comment person could do the de greasing etc. in theory their service means you can plug and play, but you will still end up doing a lot of work
here is a list to get to started http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_lathe/Modifications/modifications.htm

 

[ceejaydee]

You will get a lot of reward simply by stripping parts of your machine down, cleaning, de-burring as/if necessary, cleaning again, then re-assembling with fresh grease/oil/lubrication as required.
I bought my Unimat 4 which is the Far East version of the Unimat 3 and a strip, clean and re-assembly has worked wonders. There were a few burrs here and there which I attended to and use of a slip stone on the sharp intersections of the ground bedways increased the smoothness of the traverse and removed any 'lumpiness'

Another lathe possibly worth looking at is the Peatol/Taig which is still, I believe, US made and more than capable of oversize work.

Problem with a lathe is that you don't always know what you really want from one until you've been an owner and user - it then gets a little addictive if you are not careful
Lots of good books to read on amateur lathework too.

As Simon mentioned form tool work really does generate some heavy cutting forces and you will need a pretty hefty machine to cope with that however serving your apprenticeship on a smaller machine to get you going is a good option and you can then build up all the associated tooling as your knowledge increases.

 

[mickoo]

Chris, ohh fear not I've a list as long as your arm of what I want to do, I've always loved lathe and mill work, just never had a small lathe or mill of my own and the ones we have at work are just too big...and too many prying eyes to do model work, especially now I'm on permanent days, wasn't so bad when I worked shifts on nights, but after nine years decided I'd had enough!. Our smallest will turn 18" on 48" centers.

I love my tools especially machine tools, hence the above comment about 2nd hand gear and have waited for a good ten years for funds to 'mature'. My apprenticeship was with the GPO and we did block release courses in London, the last and most complex was the 4 week machine tools course, I was top and passed with distinctions, I think there were 12 tasks and you only had to complete 7 or 8 to pass, I'd done all 12 by the start of week 4 LOL so the instructors started teaching me index tables and more complex mill work and I loved every day of that course.

Its been a few years of course but I cannot wait to get my own lathe up and running, already planning where to put it and make a table/ bench for it .

If all Arc Euro are doing is stripping of the manufacturing grease and general clean up then I really see no issue there, its basic mechanical work, I'll re-read the set up pdf later and look at the replacement bearings one as well, that £225 saved will go a long way in tools.

Kindest

 

[Simon Dunkley]

What concerns me is that Chester offer basically the same mini lathe and there's no hint of set up being required, I find that hard to believe given the origin of said equipment. I'd allowed £500 for a lathe and £500 for a mill, but its looking like nearer £1k for a lathe after set up and decent tools etc. The money isn't that much of a stickler provided I'm getting value for money, I'd probably also go for a steel gear set as well.

Acknowledging (and understanding) what you have already said about preferring to buy new, I would still say that your best bet is a second-hand ML10 in good nick: quite a few appear on the market that have hardly been used. One reason in its favour - and this is important with tools - is that it is British designed and British built.
Failing that, I would go for the C3 from Arc Euro Trade, paying them to set it up, and have the new bearings.

 

[mickoo]

Simon, well after much browsing it looks like the Chester Conquest is the same as a Sieg C2 and the Chester Conquest super is the same as the Sieg C3, thus the AET C3 works out at a better deal. I've also had a detailed look at what AET do with their set up (thanks to their detailed pdf explaining these things), and as hinted above its basically a strip down, clean and lubricate re-assemble process, nothing that I don't do in my day job, the bearings are a little more tricky but we have all the gear in our workshops to accomplish that plus some seriously skilled machine tool operators across the department. AET charge £85 to fit these bearings, yet they price in at £9.95ea if you do it yourself.

Given the budget contstraints (self imposed) I have three basic options, a C3 set up and bearings done by AET, a C3 factory and bearings done by myself, or, being as I'd allocated a set figure for the lathe in option one, could now swing for the super C3 factory and bearings done by myself.

I must the last option with its brushless motor and belt drive noise level is very attractive plus the extra torque that power system brings to the headstock is appealing, especially when coupled with taper bearings. A brass gib set is mandatory and I'd like a clamp lock tail stock.

To be really blunt I'm not so sure why I'm hesitant about stripping down and cleaning up a mini lathe, I've changed three automobile engines in my time, do most of the work on my car, bearings, suspension, track rod ends blah blah with out a second thought so it's not a lack of skills LOL....no need for anyone to reply to that last statement ....and some of the work we do here is far more complex and detailed than that required for the mini lathe set up, I think I'm just being a bit of a wet blouse really LOL.

Fully concur on Britsih built and tooling, sadly though we continue to keep pricing ourselves out of the market. I think your absolutely right about a 2nd hand Myford and would be better value for money all round but its the waiting, searching, guessing and the 2nd hand nature that makes that option less desirable for me.

Kindest

 

[28ten]

The superC3 would be a good choice, you really need to make taper gibs as the brass gigs are still a bit hit and miss.
Personally given space i would still go for a s/h Myford, or higher quality far eastern model, simply because I don't want to spend my time modding a lathe, to me its a tool not a hobby in itself (nothing wrong if it is a hobby).
I have spent a lot of time working on my Chinese laser and I wish I had spent more initially on a better machine, as it has taken a lot of faffing about to get results. I suppose it depends how much your time is worth

I may have a set of photos from when I stripped my C3 down to have the bed milled, its nothing you couldn't do.

 

[mickoo]

But what other far eastern options does one have?, I cannot see any other models that look better quality, as far as I can tell most are from the same mould give or take a few extras. I don't think a Myford will fit in my space, I have about 1m give or take a few inches LOL.

I think the modding will come with time, if after the strip down and bearing change it does what I want it to do then I'll be happy, obviously as things develope then modifications can be done if required or necessary, if however you have to modify it a lot to even begin to use it, then, yes I agree with your view. I suppose it depends on is what you initially want to use it for from the outset.
The only desperate mod I can see from the outset is the tailstock clamp lock mod, gib replacement and reduction of backlash, the latter I'd expect to do as part of the rebuild and I suppose is not really a modification, and yes, I do like to tinker with things...so long as I can see light at the end of the tunnel (more on that with the wheel issues later ).

I do seem to be moving more from the model train to the model engineering side of things which I find very interesting so adding the machine tool side of things is just another aspect I suppose, but I do empathise with those that simply use tools as tools and not view tools as a side hobby.

Gibs, is it easier to just taper the brass set from AET, or better to make your own ?. To be fair the strip down isn't or wasn't the primary concern, it was if the headstock or tailstock were mis-aligned but reading forums and such, these issues seem to have been addressed at source from the early years and post 2006 etc seem to have all but been resolved, if forums posts are anyhting to go by.

Why did you have the C3 bed milled was it defromed or not true?. Did you fit your own taper bearings and any photos you have, feel free to load up. Is there a better forum here for machine tool talk, I've searched through the posts and bits and pieces of advice turn up here and there, rather than dilute this G scale US thread with machine tool talk, wondered if it might be better to start a dedicated thread to it as I go along, but where to put it is the conundrum?.

Kindest

 

[Simon Dunkley]

Fully concur on Britsih built and tooling, sadly though we continue to keep pricing ourselves out of the market.

I think it is more the case that the market is not prepared to pay for the amount of time it takes for a skilled craftsman to bring a good tool up to a higher standard, which is the real issue here.

Anyway, we need to steer clear of politics. I mean, next thing we know, we'll have satirists being caught doing what they complain about other people doing...
(He said, [tax] evasively.)