Dcc And A Western

[28ten]

My Loksound 3.5 for the Western arrived today, and I have a couple of minor problems, I think two speakers might be better than one- any thoughts? there is probably space for one of Stephs baffle type things as well, currently it is all treble and no bass. I think I need a stay alive as well.
The other thing is that depending on further trials I may well fit a second motor bogie - now, would I be better wiring the two motors to one decoder or using 2 decoders as a consist?
Interesting to note that the 3.5xl is much better 'out of the box' than the 4.0, with the coreless maxon.

 

[Steph Dale]

Cynric,

Funny that - I think the v3.5 drive is better as it comes, although the v4 is better when set up properly. I suspect this will be something that will sort itself out as the firmware for the v4 is progressively updated though.

You're talking about the v3.5XL here rather than the standard v3.5? Well, you'd probably have got away with a v4 driving two bogies. No matter - in short using one decoder for two motors doesn't really present an issue. You may find that wiring them in series is better than wiring in parallel and the drive CVs will almost certainly need tweaking.

About the speaker enclosures: if you put two speakers in two seperate boxes which are spaced apart you may well find that you get a reasonable effect of the loco having two engines. I've recently uncovered an approach for having a directional horn as well, if you want to go that far (you'll need two more small speakers and enclosures, a solid-state relay, a couple of capacitors and a spare function or two on the decoder).

As far I know there's no USB/power-pack/keep alive/electronic flywheel facility on the v3.5XL, but I'm willing to be enlightened. The loco(s) will run better if you set CV29 to digital-only operation though.

Steph

 

[Dikitriki]

No matter - in short using one decoder for two motors doesn't really present an issue. You may find that wiring them in series is better than wiring in parallel and the drive CVs will almost certainly need tweaking.

Steph

That's not my experience with 10001. We could not get the decoder to work properly until the second motor was removed. Now that, post exhibition, I have a more time on my hands, I propose putting the second motor back in, wiring it in series, and trying again. If it still wont work then Mr Dale jr. might get an invite to come up and see if he can wave his magic wand at it

Remind me Cynric, is the Western S7 or FS? (visions of Heyside becoming a sub-shed of Penzance)

Yours

Richard

 

[D1054]

My Loksound 3.5 for the Western arrived today, and I have a couple of minor problems, I think two speakers might be better than one- any thoughts? there is probably space for one of Stephs baffle type things as well, currently it is all treble and no bass. I think I need a stay alive as well.
The other thing is that depending on further trials I may well fit a second motor bogie - now, would I be better wiring the two motors to one decoder or using 2 decoders as a consist?
Interesting to note that the 3.5xl is much better 'out of the box' than the 4.0, with the coreless maxon.

I've used a single Loksound XL 3.5 with two 40mm circular speakers on my JLTRT Westerns with what I'd say are now good results. I mount the speakers on the back of the cab bulkheads, pointing inwards towards each other - I seem to get a better accoustic there than centre mounted between the bogies. The motors are wired in parallel to the sound-card, but I believe several others swear by wiring them in series.

D1054's now had miles of noisy running and these Loksounds are damned good - no problems with any of mine whatsoever (not so for certain other brands). I do use a separate Lenz Silver decoder to manage the fan speeds and cab lighting, whilst the Loksound handles the motors, Headcodes and front/rear warning lights.

Not tried the new 4.0 yet........

 

[28ten]

Yes it is an XL, I wasnt sure if a 4 would cope with 2 motors, anyway I had it my head that I could have it reblown as a Warship or D63 for 1/32 or even a Hymek for the heljan if needs be, so it wont go to waste
The horn sounds just the job for the big locos, although the mention of relays and capacitors is rather scary
I have one 40mm loksound speaker, am I better to go for another one or a pair a little smaller and an enclosure?

The other problem is that I dont have enough track to get the full acceleration sequence

 

[28ten]

Remind me Cynric, is the Western S7 or FS? (visions of Heyside becoming a sub-shed of Penzance)

Yours

Richard

It will run on Heyside

 

[28ten]

I've used a single Loksound XL 3.5 with two 40mm circular speakers on my JLTRT Westerns with what I'd say are now good results. I mount the speakers on the back of the cab bulkheads, pointing inwards towards each other - I seem to get a better accoustic there than centre mounted between the bogies. The motors are wired in parallel to the sound-card, but I believe several others swear by wiring them in series.

D1054's now had miles of noisy running and these Loksounds are damned good - no problems with any of mine whatsoever (not so for certain other brands). I do use a separate Lenz Silver decoder to manage the fan speeds and cab lighting, whilst the Loksound handles the motors, Headcodes and front/rear warning lights.

Not tried the new 4.0 yet........

That sounds reassuring, I would rather rover spec the decoder than be waiting for a plume of smoke I suppose I ought light it seeing as I have fitted the fibre optics etc. What motors are you using?

 

[Steph Dale]

That's not my experience with 10001. We could not get the decoder to work properly until the second motor was removed. Now that, post exhibition, I have a more time on my hands, I propose putting the second motor back in, wiring it in series, and trying again. If it still wont work then Mr Dale jr. might get an invite to come up and see if he can wave his magic wand at it

Richard,
We got Dad's 10000 and 10001 running on a standard v4. The motors are in series as we found there was less tweaking of speeds and the sound seemed to synchronise better with the motion. Having done it twice I've come to the conclusion it's not a fluke! The only time I've had the troubles I remember you describing (it ran away didn't it?) it was down to dodgy pick-up; although this may not be the cause with your model.

I've used a single Loksound XL 3.5 with two 40mm circular speakers on my JLTRT Westerns with what I'd say are now good results. I mount the speakers on the back of the cab bulkheads, pointing inwards towards each other - I seem to get a better accoustic there than centre mounted between the bogies. The motors are wired in parallel to the sound-card, but I believe several others swear by wiring them in series.

D1054's now had miles of noisy running and these Loksounds are damned good - no problems with any of mine whatsoever (not so for certain other brands). I do use a separate Lenz Silver decoder to manage the fan speeds and cab lighting, whilst the Loksound handles the motors, Headcodes and front/rear warning lights.

Not tried the new 4.0 yet........

D1054,
What you describe is much as I'd expect. In your case the larger decoder may well be required as motors in parallel will require more current delivery than motors in series.
I like the idea of using a seperate decoder for the accessories - that will be my approach with my model of 11001 as it's the only way I can think to get the radiator fan to run up in synchronisation with the engine sound! It's nice to know that it can be done.

Steph

 

[Steph Dale]

Yes it is an XL, I wasnt sure if a 4 would cope with 2 motors, anyway I had it my head that I could have it reblown as a Warship or D63 for 1/32 or even a Hymek for the heljan if needs be, so it wont go to waste
The horn sounds just the job for the big locos, although the mention of relays and capacitors is rather scary
I have one 40mm loksound speaker, am I better to go for another one or a pair a little smaller and an enclosure?

The other problem is that I dont have enough track to get the full acceleration sequence

Cynric,
If your loco has got a Maxon in it I really can't see it drawing over half an amp - so even in parallel two of them wouldn't put a v4.0 into a sweat.
I'd go for two of the biggest speakers you can fit. Bin the provided enclosures and make them up into the body - the bigger the better...!

Steph

 

[Dikitriki]

The other problem is that I dont have enough track to get the full acceleration sequence

Not a problem

 

[TheSnapper]

In my limited experience, I believe it depends on the type of motors used and their characteristics. Also, if back-EMF is used, I would imagine that if the motors are not well matched, the chip would be receiving some strange signals , and be struggling to control them.

I have employed XL chips in a 2 Heljan locos ( Hymek and 47), plus a (still not finished) JLTRT 37 fitted with 2 Canon/ABC units , all wired in parallel. (NB. wiring in series will reduce the top speed). Thanks to some advice and encouragement from Steph on the 7mm/Yahoo forums about tweaking the back-EMF setting CV’s, all work fine.

I seem to remember Richard, that when 10001 had 2 motors, it worked better with back-EMF switched off. Remind me – what type of motors are installed?

Incidentally, I was very impressed recently when I fitted a Zimo chip to a isambardme’s Maxxon powered Jinty – very smooth! Also, I have a Zimo 645 sound-chip to fit into my Heljan Class20 – I’ll let you know how I get on………

Cheers

Tim Ingman

 

[Dikitriki]

I seem to remember Richard, that when 10001 had 2 motors, it worked better with back-EMF switched off. Remind me – what type of motors are installed?

I
Cheers

Tim Ingman

Hi Tim

10001's motors are the type sold by DJH for their 37s. Big brutes, but very smooth and powerful. Identical motors bought at the same time.

No problem with pick ups as it's all split axle with some sprung wheels. The problem was at slow speed only and stopping. It wouldn't stop - just carry on crawling. I assume that the chip got confused between the 2 motors when one was at stop and the other wasn't quite. Cor, that's technical!

I'm not worried about top speed, but I would like 2 motors back in to balance the loco up. It's probably going to come your way Tim to sort out!

Cheers

Richard

 

[Steph Dale]

Tim,
Yep - you got it; the series connection was useful on Dad's locos as it means they run at a respectable 80(ish) at full speed on the decoder with no mucking about with speed CVs. Zimo have always been good decoders and I used them for years until ESU started getting good (LokPilotv2 was the first of theirs I had contact with), they were relatively late into sound though and by then I'd already invested in ESU technology.

Richard,
Tim is also right about the feedback loop affecting performance. I suspect it needs weakening (CV change) and the motor CVs changing too, the latter to allow for the size of the motors. The newer ESUs can have different values for different locos. What you've described above is classic of a feedback error and I now think isn't related to pick-up. I had thought the problem was a high-speed run-away.

Steph

 

[TheSnapper]

..........I'm not worried about top speed, but I would like 2 motors back in to balance the loco up. It's probably going to come your way Tim to sort out!

With pleasure Richard - I like a challenge!!

Tim

 

[28ten]

Two speakers now fitted and it sounds much better. Next question, how do I slow the acceleration and lower the top speed?

 

[Steph Dale]

Cynric,

I thought you'd bought a SPROG? If not, no worry, but it's time to RTFM...

Acceleration is CV3 - a larger value gives a gentler acceleration
Deceleration is CV4 - as above - I generally find that having this at about 3/4 of the CV3 value works well.

Max speed is CV5 - a larger value means faster..
Mid speed is CV6 - you'll generally want this to around 1/3rd of CV5 to give fluid control at low speeds and good performance at high speed.

It's also worth trying to find out what you'd need to do to get 'Shunting Mode' enabled; this reduces the speed values to around 2/3rds of their full value to give even smoother performance at low speed. On my model of 11001 that is coincidentally the difference betweent he prototype's high and low speed ranges.

Steph

 

[28ten]

No SPROG yet. Ill try those later, the acceleration is crazy at the moment and over 3 yards of track I cant stop in time

 

[Simon]

No SPROG yet. Ill try those later, the acceleration is crazy at the moment and over 3 yards of track I cant stop in time

We'd better keep the door open tomorrow then

 

[Steph Dale]

No SPROG yet. Ill try those later, the acceleration is crazy at the moment and over 3 yards of track I cant stop in time

Cynric,

Actually it's probably pretty good as it is then. Stop thinking 'model' and start driving it like you would a real loco if it only had 3 yards of track (i.e. slowly and carefully!). You'll soon get the hang of it; just creeping the loco onto it's first power notch, bit more, brakes off, then shut the throttle, coast and stop.

And that's why I've got sound - done well it's a lot more involving and adds to the operation.

Not intended as a personal criticism, Steph - info like this is good, but only half the story - CV values within what range?
AFAIK CV3 & 4 have values between only 1 and 6 ? CV5 & 6 have values from 0 to 255..?
I got an American book on DCC to try and learn from, and it was a bit like this - "play around with the values" sort of thing, without telling you the actual range of values accepted by the CV in question.
A bit OT, but I have followed the link from the "Blogs/Websites" thread to your site Steph - looks really useful and I must devote time to studying it - thanks for posting!

Jordan,

That's where the RTFM thing comes in - it is all in ESU's (exceptionally well written) manual for the decoder. It's not helped that I don't know what values the decoder will come with after SWD/Howes/whomever have done their thing. I don't have absolute values for any of the decoders I've set up as I find they need changing from loco to loco. The simple rules of thumb for setting the proportional values are worth divulging though. Incidentally the range on the ESU decoders is typically 0-64, rather than 0-128 or 0-255 used by other manufacturers.

Thanks for the feedback on the website - it's always welcome, whether good or bad.
Steph

 

[28ten]

Steph, the instructions are quite comprehensive, there is a tripple punp, preheat and then up to 4 and to 12 , but by that time it is just going too damn fast