Etched zinc sides: a question

[Heather Kay]

I have taken on a commission for four pre-Grouping coaches. Three are fairly complete etched brass affairs, but one is something from the dawn of model railway kit manufacturing.



That says all I need to say, I think!

I have absolutely no experience with this. I wonder if any of you might be able to shed some light on tools and techniques I might find useful in cutting out the windows and forming the sides.

The client has searched high and low, but there are no other Cambrian kits he can find, so I think we are kind of stuck with these sides. I should add that I haven't committed to this actual model yet, but I'm always up for a challenge! I must need my head seeing to!

Part of me thinks it would be quicker to create a kit from scratch, drawing up and having it etched. That would extend the budget a bit far, though. Any ideas welcome!

 

[mickoo]

What scale (looks like 4 mm scaling off the hand writing?) and how big are the etches in inches....roughly and what thickness, it might not be as expensive as you think, not for the etching but time wise it might be.

As a rough guide a sheet of 12 x 7" Nickle Silver 15 Thou thick is just over £50 for the first sheet and roughly £30 for following sheets from PPD.

If it's 4 mm then you'd probably get four sets of sides on a 12 x 7" sheet.

The shapes are easy enough, once you have one section done just copy and paste.

Mick D

 

[Heather Kay]

It's 7mm scale, about 238mm on a trimmed side length.

The zinc plate is about a millimetre thick. The more I think about it the more I think I should walk away!

I know etching new sides would be relatively inexpensive. It's the time to research the prototype for creating the artwork that would be the clincher.

 

[Dikitriki]

That's got to be a few £hundred before you even get to the point of having useable pieces, and then you have to research and source the rest. That's a walk away job IMO

Richard

 

[djparkins]

I have taken on a commission for four pre-Grouping coaches. Three are fairly complete etched brass affairs, but one is something from the dawn of model railway kit manufacturing.

That says all I need to say, I think!

I have absolutely no experience with this. I wonder if any of you might be able to shed some light on tools and techniques I might find useful in cutting out the windows and forming the sides.

Heather -

These look like the etched zinc sides from Trevor Charlton [I see now - should have looked at the photo more thoroughly!]. They will [IIRC] have a green film on the back which needs to be removed if you are to solder them. I built loads of these for a client in the mid 1970s - mostly Cambrian Railway, which might explain why I love the BR/LMR period!!!

They took forever, as I had to drill out holes at the corner of each window aperture and then set to work with a fret saw. For a 6 wheel coach I recall they took around 8-10 hours per side. Then you had to mark out and drill all the door & grab handle positions! Forming the tumblehome was reasonably effortless as the material is quite pliable.

I found no short cuts I'm sorry to say. I hope you are getting well paid for this! I charged a lot back then in the 1970s for work like that. It all changed when Metalmodels & Colin Waite stuff started to appear. I'm surprised these are still around as they are just plain cruel to commission builders!

DJP/MMP

 

[mickoo]

It's 7mm scale, about 238mm on a trimmed side length.

The zinc plate is about a millimetre thick. The more I think about it the more I think I should walk away!

I know etching new sides would be relatively inexpensive. It's the time to research the prototype for creating the artwork that would be the clincher.

Ok, in that case the raw price just went up and Richard is right, it's going to be over £100 a sheet, let alone all the research required and all the extras you need to add because it's 7 mm and will be visible.

Like those above, I'd politely decline

 

[Heather Kay]

Thanks everyone. I guess that's a no-go then.

I'll ask the client whether he'd be happy to invest a little more and have drawings and etches prepared (I know he's still looking for suitable ends, so they could be included in the artwork). We did agree I could drop this build if it proved too much in its current state, so I don't think the client will be overly worried.

Back in the box it goes for now!

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

Heather,
I have built quite a few of Trevor's etchings in 4mm and some of Philip Millards 'red rose models' too. They build up very well as models but as AIDS to scratch building rather than kits.
However I had a different experience with the 7mm ones! I got a rake of Trevor's coaches, 4 sides and ends about 15 years ago when I moved into S7. Basically the same as the 4mm ones but bigger and the windows were cut out. However when I came to solder them together I had major problems. Zinc solders but also soaks up the heat and oxidises like billy-o. Result was that I cranked up the heat too much and burned holes in the etchings. One set ruined so I had to resort to araldite for the other 3 which are OK but never again.
My last coach was hand cut lace from plastikard, time consuming and a bit of a pain but cheaper than dedicated etches.
Ian

 

[Hobbyhorse]

Those bring back memories, I did a load of them in the old Kemco days for a client, mostly 4mm but with a selection of 7mm ones.
The key in soldering them is to use a very active flux, at the time a wife's mate worked in a hospital pharmacists and we mixed our own flux. To clean them I used a Scotchbrite pad, and soldered with 145 solder and then give a good scrub to remove the flux.
John Petcher built a lot of the zinc sided coaches, have a look at Kevin Wilsons Bucks Hill site.

Simon

 

[Susie]

Hi Heather,

Trevor produced quite a few of his etched zinc sides in S scale as well, however he always cut the window apertures out himself, and formed the incurve at the base of the sides.

They were etched for him by his local printing works - hence the use of zinc. The masters were usually drawn using a Skinley print as the source. When he retired, the masters were bought by another who carried on for a while having them etched, but didn't carry on with the window cutting. They can be soldered - use low melt solder and tallow as a flux, but I think many used to araldite them.

Good luck if you do the job, but with the ends missing and a lot of scratchbuilding you'll need it.

Susie

 

[Mike W]

As others have said, they are really an aid to scratchbuilding, but when done they are, in my opinion, better than etched brass because they have more depth. Look at the superb and revered John Petcher coaches - almost all made from these sides and ends. But most of us don't have his skills!

Mike

 

[JimG]

This zinc coach side thread popped up yesterday just as I was handing some of the same in the S Scale Society's parts department (getting ready for the AGM this coming Saturday)


These are sets for K&ESR bogie and six wheel brake ends and came for the estate of a past member. All the windows are cut out - I assume as supplied since the packing seems to be original.


The lookouts and the tumblehomes were supplied already formed. The quality of the etches is excellent and the thickness of the zinc probably depicts the depth of pre-Grouping coaches better than brass sheet.

Jim.

 

[Heather Kay]

Interesting. It all points to the etches I have here as being after Trevor handed the product on.

I've made up my mind I don't want to get involved. I will ask the client if he wants to consider heading down the bespoke etch route.

 

[djparkins]

Interesting. It all points to the etches I have here as being after Trevor handed the product on.

I've made up my mind I don't want to get involved. I will ask the client if he wants to consider heading down the bespoke etch route.

I'm not so sure - ALL of the T. Charlton packs that came to me to build in the 1970s had to have the windows cut out and were flat.

 

[Heather Kay]

Thanks for the clarification David.

My decision still stands, though.

 

[Rob Pulham]

I have a set of sides/ends for an NER coach that Cynric kindly let me have a few years ago. I have been slowly building up all the other bits and pieces needed to complete it. I intend to build it despite any issues purely because Cynric was kind enough to think of me when he was letting it go and didn't want anything for them either.

 

[Oz7mm]

The etches I had from Trevor himself had the windows cut out and the turnunder formed.

John

 

[Simon]

The windows were definitely cut out on the sides you purchased from Trevor by the time I spoke to him, I foolishly delayed on various S&D coach sides in 1/32 scale before he very sadly passed away.

My impression, both from talking to people who actually used the sides and looking at the finished models, is that they produced models that were superior to similar (ie panelled) prototypes produced from an etched kit.

I guess this thread also highlights one of the differences between building for "hire and reward" on the one hand and a personal interest in a subject on the other. All professionals have only so much time they can spend on a subject while we amateurs have all the time in the world, as the song says.

Simon