7mm GWR Outside Frame Covered Wagons - kits from the past

Overseer

Western Thunderer
Graham, do yo know the date the headstocks were replaced? The wide brackets at the ends of the bulb iron solebars and the non matching filler pieces between the bulb iron and the rear of the more modern steel channel headstocks strongly suggest that they previously had timber headstocks.
 

Wagonman

Western Thunderer
Graham, do yo know the date the headstocks were replaced? The wide brackets at the ends of the bulb iron solebars and the non matching filler pieces between the bulb iron and the rear of the more modern steel channel headstocks strongly suggest that they previously had timber headstocks.

The GWR never fitted wooden headstocks to iron framed wagons. It would have made no sense to do so. It is possible an iron headstock was replaced by steel though I've not heard of it. But then there's lots I've not heard of...
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
The GWR never fitted wooden headstocks to iron framed wagons. It would have made no sense to do so. It is possible an iron headstock was replaced by steel though I've not heard of it. But then there's lots I've not heard of...
I may be wrong in assuming that the GWR would have done what many other railways did and used composite underframes with iron solebars but timber for everything else. This took advantage of the strength of the iron solebars but avoided the problems of cracking of wrought iron headstocks etc under buffing stresses as the timber was more resilient (until it rotted).
 

Wagonman

Western Thunderer
I may be wrong in assuming that the GWR would have done what many other railways did and used composite underframes with iron solebars but timber for everything else. This took advantage of the strength of the iron solebars but avoided the problems of cracking of wrought iron headstocks etc under buffing stresses as the timber was more resilient (until it rotted).

The GWR wasn't one of them. They adopted all iron frames quite early on (mid 1880s from memory) and stuck to them. Indeed when they acquired wooden framed vehicles as a result of the Grouping they wasted little time in scrapping them. Thinking about it, I am not aware of any railway wagon builder that used iron solebars and wooden everything else; quite a few examples of iron flitch plates attached to wooden solebars but nowt else. Can you give me an instance of iron solebars on otherwise wooden underframes as I'm always keen to learn?
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
I may be wrong in assuming that the GWR would have done what many other railways did and used composite underframes with iron solebars but timber for everything else. This took advantage of the strength of the iron solebars but avoided the problems of cracking of wrought iron headstocks etc under buffing stresses as the timber was more resilient (until it rotted).
I am not in a position to say for the O/F wooden frame covered wagons... however, the iron covered wagons (those which are referred to as "iron minks") had racking plates on top of the solebars / headstocks - a similar situation exists with the Dean era four wheel stock in the Slater's 7mm range.
 

Mike W

Western Thunderer
Not quite the same, but all LNWR 6-wheeled carriage underframes from c1888 to about 1900 were mainly channel section steel (solebars and headstocks), but the central longitudinal frame members were of Oak. There are a few preserved, notably at Quainton.
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
….. Can you give me an instance of iron solebars on otherwise wooden underframes as I'm always keen to learn?
Some Colonial examples, first a photo of a New Zealand Railways L1 class wooden bodied open wagon underframe. The photo is borrowed from the Motorised Dandruff blog, about modelling NZR in 1:120 scale and well worth a look. I hope they don't mind. There were about 4000 L1 wagons built before 1900.
nzr L1.jpg

Then a Victorian Railways H van, built 1893. They originally had a solid sliding door as well as the bar version on this one giving a choice of closed or ventilated van. Side and underneath views of the van at Echuca Wharf, which is not actually H9.
nov h vans.jpg
nov h vanu.jpg
The electrical conduit is not an original feature. The Victorian Railways were building all iron open wagons, as well as wooden opens with the same composite underframe as the H van through the 1890s. The 1850s Daniel Gooch designed iron vans and open wagons were still running at the time but there were several types of 1870s built all iron wagons which had proved to be not so durable.

Now to track down some UK examples.
 

Wagonman

Western Thunderer
Some Colonial examples, first a photo of a New Zealand Railways L1 class wooden bodied open wagon underframe. The photo is borrowed from the Motorised Dandruff blog, about modelling NZR in 1:120 scale and well worth a look. I hope they don't mind. There were about 4000 L1 wagons built before 1900.
View attachment 61535

Then a Victorian Railways H van, built 1893. They originally had a solid sliding door as well as the bar version on this one giving a choice of closed or ventilated van. Side and underneath views of the van at Echuca Wharf, which is not actually H9.
View attachment 61536
View attachment 61537
The electrical conduit is not an original feature. The Victorian Railways were building all iron open wagons, as well as wooden opens with the same composite underframe as the H van through the 1890s. The 1850s Daniel Gooch designed iron vans and open wagons were still running at the time but there were several types of 1870s built all iron wagons which had proved to be not so durable.

Now to track down some UK examples.

Amazing what our wild colonials got up to when our back was turned! Well found, though. I'm amazed it worked given the marked difference in the coefficient of linear expansion between wood and iron/steel – but then it didn't cause a problem with iron frames and wood bodies...

I remain confident you won't find a GWR example though :) Not counting loco sandwich frames.
 

Wagonman

Western Thunderer
Here is a quick iPhone snap of my own scratchbuilt wooden mink. It's been siting on the shelf for the last 3 years while my modelling mojo sues me for divorce on the grounds of desertion! It was going to be GWR grey, until I realised it should actually be GWR red! I do have axlebox and spring castings (BGS) somewhere, and some etched brake gear, so all it needs is a bit of effort/time/inspiration/all the things I don't have...


wood mink model S.jpg
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
A great shame about the mojo...... That's a fine looking wagon. What size is it - it looks G1?

I've found that an "enforced" start in the workshop when my mojo's gone a bit wobbly works well. I only need to be out there for five minutes and I'm back in to it, particularly if I'm this far down the road with a model.

Brian
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
In typical WT fashion this topic has gone around the houses world and taken a historic flavour. As WTers seem to have a liking for oddities then the GWR O/F wooden frame covered wagon takes some beating. John Lewis (HMRS) has provided some background to the wagons and I quote from a recent message:-

"There were something like 1195 of these vans built with wooden underframes and 1104 vans with iron frames. The diagonals on the wood underframed vans sloped the opposite way to those on the iron underframed vans. The doubt is because lot 239 may have had iron plated wood solebars."

I suspect that John meant to write O/S Lot 239... I shall check in Tourett. As to "iron plated wood solebars", this is a wooden solebar with an external steel plate - often referred to as a flitch plate.

Here is a photo of a wagon with wooden solebars:-
16556WoodMinkOF.jpg

The wagon is in traffic at the Spillers' flour mill at Swansea. The wagon displays the outside diagonal brace as being in the opposite orientation to that of a wagon with iron solebar as here:-
37452WoodMinkOF.jpg
Both photos in this post are courtesy of John Lewis.
 

daifly

Western Thunderer
Although not affecting the substance of Grahams comments, can I point out that the upper photo is at Weaver's Mill in Swansea. The subject wagon (cropped on the LHS) appeared as part of a larger photo as the cover of the HMRS publication 'All About Iron Minks'. The photo was taken c1922 and certainly pre 1926 as the building behind was demolished about then. Here's an irrelevant but fascinating view from street level in 1922.
Weavers drawbridge looking E.jpg
 

Wagonman

Western Thunderer
A great shame about the mojo...... That's a fine looking wagon. What size is it - it looks G1?

I've found that an "enforced" start in the workshop when my mojo's gone a bit wobbly works well. I only need to be out there for five minutes and I'm back in to it, particularly if I'm this far down the road with a model.

Brian

Thanks Brian. It's 7mm scale. My workbench is such a mess I'd have to spend hours just sorting it all out, mojo draining away every minute.
One day...


Richard
 

daifly

Western Thunderer
Dave, just how do you find such fascinating images?
I have a major interest in the dock railways of Swansea so have scores, probably hundreds, of photos of locations, trains etc. in and around that area culled from myriad sources including buying some photos! The scene in that particular photo shows 2 major items of railway interest.
The tram is crossing a bridge across the entrance to North Dock. The bridge lifts and rolls towards the camera to allow small ships to pass. The track on the extreme right is part of the Swansea Harbour Trust lines serving the South Dock.
Bridge lifted ready to roll back to the town side.jpg
The pale grey steelwork to the left is another rolling bridge which carries a double track connection between the South Dock coal hoists, Swansea Victoria (LNWR) interchange traffic and connected the East Dock area to the GWR lines to the west of the River Tawe. This bridge would open (looked at from the opposite side) for larger vessels to pass like this:
SS Cognac entering North Dock 1920 with High Level drawbridge open.jpg
Major holds-ups to traffic were inevitable. Here's my favourite photo of the location which is full of really interesting material and including one of the inevitable SHT Pecketts! Both bridges are open.
Arches Hotel in Quay Parade c1920.jpg
Photo dates to after the rebuilding of the mill building on the left and the installation of the high-level bridge connecting the two main mill buildings. Sorry for going off topic!
Dave
 

daifly

Western Thunderer
Very much so, especially with the contextual comments.

Got any which have the "Spiller's" name on the side of the GWR-style covered iron wagons?
I don't have such a photo nor have I ever seen one of Spillers wagons here. Didn't Spillers have their own mills?
 
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