Heljan class 25, thoughts?

[Overseer]

I have been watching this thread with interest but little real knowledge of the prototype. I have been looking at a book or two and it strikes me that it would be useful if someone could provide a Mickoo style summary of the differences between the class 24 and subclasses of the 25s. As an example, I hadn't previously noticed the stylish shaped valance pieces above the buffer beam of the class 24 which is missing from the 25s, and numerous other differences.

From photos of the Heljan model it looks like there are some deviations from the prototype. The ones that would bother me are the roof shape and headcode boxes. The horn shrouds are too long, as is the distance the headcode box protrudes from the angle shrouds either side. The front of the roof shape is nqr, the model curves wouldn't meet in a nice domed shape if the headcode box were removed, as they should. The cant rail curves are also nqr, they appear to be too sharp radius and this shows as a vertical face above the cab side gutters instead of the curve starting directly above the gutter. I think the JLTRT version has a similar problem with the roof shape and both the Hornby and Bachmann OO interpretations are not correct around the headcode boxes, so Heljan are in good company. Sorry, none of this helps deciding which model to buy.

 

[richard_t]

These two links off the Derby Sulzers webite might help:

• Design Changes
• Class 24/25 Cabs

And there are two versions of the cab roof moulding for a start.

A list of the differences between the Derby built and Darlington built machines wouldn't go miss though.
(I have a JLTRT class 25/1 shelf queen waiting to be turned into 25042 - yup different headcode moulding)

 

[Osgood]

….I don't think it's healthy to pretend that a model has no flaws, but I should add … that we shouldn't judge each others decision whether those flaws are an acceptable compromise.

I totally agree, Neil. I can't see where anyone is doing either of these things here.
My only interest here is in trying to establish what - if any - flaws exist in the first place.

I also asked the same question (elsewhere) as John did on here, because I did not have enough knowledge of the real thing to make my own mind up about the Heljan with any confidence. This after quite a few folk had dismissed the model as being plain wrong.

However none of the claims of inaccuracy were accompanied by supporting evidence other than comparing its likeness to photographs.
And having trawled through books and pictures it was clear this model seemed to achieve a fair representation of at least some of the class, although it took a better scholar than me to work out why. Once this information came to light much of the early front end criticism has fallen away, whilst others remain unconvinced.

So that meant testing any unsubstantiated claims of inaccuracy to see if there was any basis in fact - or whether they are just perceived errors ('there must be something wrong because it simply doesn't look right').

Some claims are easy to resolve, by checking reliable data and measurements (see - I did take your claim seriously, Jim!). Others - like the degree of curvature of front, whether front doors should or should not be flush, are not so easy without access to proper data / drawings.

So far it doesn't look like any alleged flaws have yet been proven - but the Heljan model appears to be scoring quite poorly in terms of visual / subjective acceptance.

Maybe John, you are undecided about the Heljan model because you believe the front end to be incorrect, or maybe because you simply prefer the more pronounced curve of other variants as represented by for example the JLTRT kit (I admit to preferring the look of the JLRT front curve and came close to commissioning a build last year but could not justify the cost). But you don't need to justify your reasoning in any case.

I actually made my mind up and ordered one very soon after the very first sample pictures came out as I'd established by then that the model looked similar enough to, and captured enough of the character of, most of the 25/1 pictures I could find - and I was not influenced by prior knowledge or experience of the class.

Whatever a manufacturer's reputation, is it not fair to judge each offering impartially?

EDIT: Although given the following post that seems a very a big ask!!

 

[TheSnapper]

Just an aside, if anyone is interested. Looks apart....

I received my Heljan Class25 last Wednesday morning.
I tried it on my layout and it was faulty. One of the motors was not working, so one bogie was being dragged by the other.


This is the third Heljan loco that I have purchased which has had a problem with the drive train. The other two (a Class20 & a Class31) I fixed myself, without complaint. I am not prepared to do it again. I am not happy at all with Heljan Quality Control, or rather what seems to be the lack of any.


Because of the previous problems I have experienced, I was initially sceptical about buying another Heljan loco, but thought the new motor/drive configuration might be better. Now I have definitely decided that I will not be buying another.


I am returning the loco at Telford, for a full refund.

Tim

 

[Overseer]

These two links off the Derby Sulzers webite might help:

• Design Changes
• Class 24/25 Cabs

And there are two versions of the cab roof moulding for a start.

A list of the differences between the Derby built and Darlington built machines wouldn't go miss though.
(I have a JLTRT class 25/1 shelf queen waiting to be turned into 25042 - yup different headcode moulding)

Thanks for the link, these are useful.

On the roof profile issue, it would not be difficult to prove one way or another whether the models are correct. There must be surviving sectional drawings which detail all the radiuses of the various bodies. Hopefully someone has a copy available. This is the type of drawing needed -

This one is for the early 1950s BRCW Commonwealth Railways NSU class, fitted with a Sulzer 6LDA 28 engine. In this case the cantrail curve is 3 inch radius for 43 degrees. The original is 3" to 1' scale. The GA drawing has more cross sections at a smaller scale showing how the equipment fits but the dimensions are not included on the GA so the detail drawings are needed.

 

[The Penguin Of Doom]

I took a couple of snatched front end profile pics today of the front end of D7628 at the NYMR. I accept that this is the later body style but once they're resized, I will post them in case they are any use.

For my point of view, I do feel the front end profile is much too flat and that the prototype has a very subtle curve towards the nose doors. I do wonder if it may be possible to reprofile the front end by bulking out the chassis front lip and doing a bit of surgery to the front end on its inner face.

I was hoping to find a cheap pre production sample model or similar at Telford this weekend but cannot make it now to see if it might be possible (I found a horrible Green 26 at Warley a few years back which lent itself to some successful butchery). That's the way the cookie crumbles I guess......

Cheers.

Sean.

 

[Osgood]

….The ones that would bother me are the roof shape and headcode boxes. The horn shrouds are too long, as is the distance the headcode box protrudes from the angle shrouds either side. The front of the roof shape is nqr, the model curves wouldn't meet in a nice domed shape if the headcode box were removed, as they should. …..

I hadn't noticed that. Reducing the horn housing length (by moving front face of headcode box to red position) to conform better to photo evidence would certainly cause the roof profile to adopt a smooth transition curve (yellow) joining front and rear curves. Guess a G.A.is needed to be sure of exact position, and did this vary between builds using different cab formers?

 

[The Penguin Of Doom]

 

[Blueeighties]

Picture one looks slightly curved, picture 2 doesn't. What does that prove? The pictures weren't taken with a tilt and shift correction lens. This debate is becoming tiring. There are imperfections, but it's a model, a representation of the real thing. If you need 100% dead scale accuracy then scratch build your own!

Every manufacturers class 25 that has came out over the Years

MTK
Hornby
Bachmann
JLTRT
Heljan

Have all been ripped apart for various inaccuracies, sold very well, and then just been accepted into the market and used as is, detailed, improved, kitbashed, whatever by the end user. Why does everyone have to whinge so much?

 

[adrian]

Picture one looks slightly curved, picture 2 doesn't. What does that prove?

Agreed - not a lot except it's all a matter of perspective. Unless someone would be good enough to put a straight edge along the front prior to taking the photo it's still a matter of interpretation.

Have all been ripped apart for various inaccuracies, sold very well, and then just been accepted into the market and used as is, detailed, improved, kitbashed, whatever by the end user. Why does everyone have to whinge so much?

Again it's a matter of perspective but to be fair I don't really see much if any whinging in this thread and I think people have been fair just pointing out the differences between the various models and I would hope that it remains that way. As Neil said earlier in the thread if you like it and are happy with it then that's fine.

 

[The Penguin Of Doom]

To be fair to my goodself, they were snatched shots as the loco backed away from banking us up from Grosmont. To have been able to put a straight edge across the end would have meant suffering the wrath of the train crew on this occasion and probably riding back to Grosmont on the buffer steps.....

If I do get a chance to make a better job of this one (or even better, 25059 at Keighley), I will do so but only to try for the definative answer.....

 

[delticfan]

Got one of these models in my hands now and I was quite sceptical about the front ends. I can assure anyone it is a great model and well worth the money if you don't have the time or skill to go down the kit route. There is so much other detail to look at you don't focus solely on the nose ends. I'm pleased I got it in the end and everyone I've heard who's got one thinks the same.

 

[Phill Dyson]

Heljan have surpassed themselves in their mediocrity with the class 25, having seen it in the flesh today . For me the flat front alone looks so wrong to me personally.

 

[The Penguin Of Doom]

Hi all.

I took these (amongst many others that will be posted on my Facebook group), on a recent visit to Haworth.

Thought they may be of help to those considering any modifications (like me).

Cheers.

Sean.

 

[The Penguin Of Doom]

She was in the shed with the engine off. Permission to grab a few snaps granted too - the "selfie" camera on the smartphone was put to good use on that one too.....

 

[Osgood]

Great pics. Is the engine at Haworth a Derby 25/1 as represented by the model?

Edit: Yes it is - must have been re-cabbed at some stage

 

[OzzyO]

We were talking about the cab front shape of the 25s at the club the other night and it looks like both Heljan and JLTRT have the shape correct, the angled front was used on about 50 locos built at Darlington with the more curved front being preferred by Derby. Darlington may have changed the front end shape at a latter time.

OzzyO.

 

[40126]

That'll put the cat amongst the pigeons, @OzzyO !!

Steve