Heljan O Gauge Class 33

[Pugsley]

Hi Phill :wave:

Not until many were either damaged or brought in for overhaul - in the late 1960's - most seemed to have had the roof changes at the time of overhaul and 'Corporate' livery application. I have yet to see photographic evidence of a Green '33' with the modified roof panels/details (some may have been patch painted green and have full yellows with roof mods before having the blue livery applied...). Yet Phill I am far from an expert .

For Heljan to use the later roof details on a green '33' is not right - IMHO....

There is photographic evidence of an all-over green 33 with modified roof panels here:
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... __p__69466

HTH

 

[marsa69]

I don't believe I'm going to say this  but....................after seeing Ians Heljan Hymek and feeling the solidity of the build and it's handling I'd quite like one myself  Only because my layout has a link to the East Lancs Railway mind. I feel all funny now, I think I'll go and lie down 

 

[Pugsley]

Hi :wave:,

Maybe we are crossing wires here etc. :scratch:

I don't think so.  You said:

Not until many were either damaged or brought in for overhaul - in the late 1960's - most seemed to have had the roof changes at the time of overhaul and 'Corporate' livery application. I have yet to see photographic evidence of a Green '33' with the modified roof panels/details (some may have been patch painted green and have full yellows with roof mods before having the blue livery applied...). Yet Phill I am far from an expert .

For Heljan to use the later roof details on a green '33' is not right - IMHO....

I have subsequently provided a link to a photograph that proves that the later 33's were built with the revised roof and silencer arrangement, in all over green.  So, Heljan can legitimately use the revised roof on their green model, and it isn't wrong.

Admittedly you are restricted to D6581 to 6585, but it still isn't wrong.

 

[lancer1027]

+1

+2
Oh and take note everyone Marsa's got the HYDRAULIC fever ;D

Rob :wave:

 

[Pugsley]

Hi Pugsley :wave:

It isnt really right either is it...

Erm, yes it is.  You have looked at the picture in the link I provided earlier, haven't you?

BTW are you on the board of directors for Heljan? :scratch: :scratch:

No, I just get a bit annoyed by ill-informed opinion being presented as fact on the internets, when proven evidence exists to the contrary.

 

[28ten]

Im no 33 expert but, going by the photos it is correct for a small number of green locos.  Therefore it's a case of glass half full or half empty depending on your POV!
I'm guessing either JLTRT or MMP will be able to offer an alternative option for all the variants.

 

[iploffy]

come on lets not fall out over a minor thing it just not worth it

Ian

 

[nascar24]

The wrong roof is why I cancelled my green one from Tower, I could have spent some time doing a conversion having done one on a RJH one sometime ago but thought I'd wait for the JLTRT kit, then someone offered me a SB Class 22 kit, decisions, decisions!. :-\
Incidentally has anyone built one of his so called "revised" kits?

 

[iploffy]

the latest offering white metal and brass vice resin, Jordan put one together on the dark side (other place)

Ian

 

[nascar24]

According to his website he is updating the brass Cl. 22 kit due this winter. I did'nt know MMP were doing a class 33, when is that coming out??

 

[Simon Dunkley]

David is a member of this forum, but his website can be found by clicking on this link: Modern Motive Power.

 

[iploffy]

I have been on SB's website many times and it's always said things like Updated kits and new for***** it's like a wish list for next year

All in all SB's kits are ok but it's like MTK in O gauge compared to JLTRT wait for their 22

Ian

 

[djparkins]

It has been hinted at that the MMP 33 will be out sometime in June (maybe earlier) - I think that there maybe more inteligence on such soon, yet we will need to parachute the SAS in to find out exactly .......

The only problem with calling in the SAS is you might find they are otherwise engaged at present - upon my instruction and heading your way!!!

Seriously though, the main reason we don't commit ourselves to release dates any more is because if we say, for example, 'Approx. June for the Class 33' - then come July there will be postings saying well he said it would be out in June! 

But April & May this year turn out to be really good months for porpoises & dolphins off of Pembrokeshire, so we might rather be watching those than finishing off another 7mm loco - or I might just feel lazy in the coming months, so I wouldn't want to commit ourselves too definitely.  The stuff is out when a price and a click-to-order button appears beside the entry on our web site.  No click-to-order button = no kit ready!  Since we don't do shows, we have the luxury of not having any deadlines [apart from VAT & tax returns!].

As regards this Heljan 33, we certainly were considering some upgrades, because our upgrade sets for their Class 47 have sold quite well.  However I now see that the Heljan 47 is selling out [or largely sold out] and this might mean a premature falling off of the demand for our detail sets for the same.  We like at least a 10 year life for our products across all our ranges [longer preferably] and if these locos are only going to be available for a short time then, then frankly, its just worth us bothering with them, as regards producing sets.  Its very different from where we do detail sets for plastic aircraft kits [in our Flightpath range] as these kits never seem to vanish from the market and some are still available after 30 years plus.  The good side to this though, is that once the RTR locos are all sold out, modellers have to start considering kits as as an option again!!!

Regards,

David Parkins,
Modern Motive Power

 

[28ten]

Here's hoping for poor weather in West Wales 
Interesting point about the Heljan add ons. I'm not sure about their production runs, but either 150 or 300 rings a bell, but you are probably right about the lifespan.

 

[djparkins]

Here's hoping for poor weather in West Wales 
Interesting point about the Heljan add ons. I'm not sure about their production runs, but either 150 or 300 rings a bell, but you are probably right about the lifespan.

Cynric -

If that is so [and I'm sure you are right] it just amazes me that it can be viable to produce them for the price.  I'd assumed they were looking at runs of 1500-2000 minimum!

Even these days, most plastic kit manufacturers are looking at a 20,000 run as a minimum to justify the making of injection moulding tools.  Even that is a far cry from the early 1960s.  Back then Airfix would make 250,000 of a new kit as an initial production run - most of which Woolworths would take!!!  Happy Days!

DJP

 

[28ten]

I think the Hymeks were an initial run of 150 and then the second run was 150. So my guess is that the 47's were a run of  between 300 and 500, but that is of course speculation! As another example, I believe Tower did 150 Castles in their latest special edition, so I am pretty certain nobody is doing runs of 1000 models.
You are not the only one to wonder about the viability, the gap between success and failure looks mighty narrow to me, and I guess they aim to do a small run and get a quick return rather than having a larger run and  stock sat on shelves,  which of course comes back to what you were saying about your aim of a 10 year lifespan...

 

[iploffy]

You know the only thing that worries me with all of the different makers of the class 33 around is it not going to get confusing for the E bayers to try and pass off a Lima 33 as a Heljan or JLTRT or MMP with the state of some of the pictures that have been posted any one would have trouble telling the difference

Ian

 

[Pugsley]

Dont blow a gasket man

No gasket blowing here - you'll know when that happens 

it is all about marketing, numbers and practicality when manufacturing a model of a prototype :scratch:

Ah, so we agree on something then.

Yes I have looked at your picture/photo, ever heard the phrase;- "one swallow does not a summer make". I would ask; have you read my comments - fully :?
BTW how can opinion be ill informed when, in this case, the weight of numbers indicate otherwise.........

You said:

It isnt really right either is it...

Which can only be opinion, as the facts say otherwise.  The fact that the model in green can only accurately represent D6580-6585 is neither here nor there, it is not wrong.  I believe that Heljan do not produce their 7mm locos with numbers, so it won't be wrong in that department either.

Some poor souls will pay ?525 for these models with - potentially - 33-50% of such being incorrect/having incorrect roofs, just like the old Limas (yet reversed), do you think that such is acceptable in this day and age of fidelity?

In this age of plentiful information, I suspect that any prospective purchasers will do their homework and weigh up the pros and cons before purchasing.  Anyone who shells out ?500 on anything without at least having a good look at it, or doing a bit of research first is a bit daft, and has no right to complain if it turns out not as expected.  Please see below for a few more points about the cost and fidelity.

I should have asked what your modelling preferences/biases are in terms of scale/gauge etc. and if you would be prepared to pay ?525 for an incorrect model?

I model in both 4mm EM and 7mm S7.  I strive to make my models as realistic and accurate as possible, hence the "searching for perfection" line in the sidebar.  Would I pay ?525 for an incorrect model?  If I wanted one, yes.  I'd then do the necessary work on the roof, if I wanted to number it as something other than D6580-85.

Then there is the issue of paying all that money for a model only to find that the gears have been moulded in a substandard plastic (as opposed to the better quality Delrin et al.) and fail prematurely......a common problem for some other manufactueres who out-source to China so I am led to believe.

You pays yer money, you takes yer choice.  To me ?525 retail, so there is a chance that you'll be able to pick them up discounted for under ?500, is an absolute bargain.  To put it into context, just to buy a JLTRT kit, equip it with wheels and only one motor and gearbox will set you back ?550. 

Add to this the time you have to spend building it, plus painting and finishing it to the same standard as the Heljan one, which not everybody will be able to do, then the Heljan looks rather cheap IMO.  If you wanted a 33 that you could just run straight away, built from the kit by a professional, I'd think you were looking at around the ?1,000 mark as a minimum, or twice the cost of the Heljan.

If they were to produce two roof variants, the additional tooling cost would make it more expensive.  Would you pay ?800 for a Heljan 33?

You compare the kits etc available in 7mm to the likes of Tamiya RC kits.  You will never get that quality in 7mm purely due to the costs of tooling and the size of the market.  You're talking tens of thousands of units shipped for the kit, the RTR loco you're looking at 500 tops, according to Cynric above.

You can have the quality you desire, but are you prepared to pay for it?

 

[28ten]

CME, Pugsley
You have both made fair points, and I think we are going to go in a circle here and this seems a fair juncture to leave it be so I will lock the thread. If anybody actually gets their mitts on a 33 from Heljan, JLTRT or MMP then feel free to start another thread