Highland Railway wagons

[Overseer]

Cracking thread only just investigated. Admire the lengths you go into research. Where do you find the material?

There are quite a few books on various aspects of the Highland Railway, the Highland Railway Society website has a list of them all. They also have a fair size collection of photographs and ephemera. The problem with the pre 1900 period is the scarcity of documentary material so the challenge is to piece the snippets of information together. A lot of the other smaller railways have far less information available, and pre 1900 is also quite a grey area for most of the larger railways when it come to getting details of rolling stock.

 

[Simon]

The new book from Noodle on the subject is now on its way to me at the shop.

I'm not anywhere near knowledgeable enough on the subject to be able to judge whether this new book adds much to what has been published before, but hopefully the author will advise readers on this point in his introduction.

I'm certainly looking forward to seeing it though

Simon

 

[SteveO]

...A lot of the other smaller railways have far less information available, and pre 1900 is also quite a grey area for most of the larger railways when it come to getting details of rolling stock.

I can't agree with you more on that point. I have two modelling interests; the early diesel era in Suffolk and the first days of the Whitland & Taf Vale (later Cardigan) branch, circa 1872 to GWR takeover. I'm researching the wagons now and have found a few conflicting descriptions but no pictures. Very frustrating.

 

[Overseer]

N O P

To finish off looking at the Highland Railway wagons before 1896 there are only three more types to be covered and there were only a single example of each type (probably). They also each had six wheels.

Type N was an 18' long, six wheeled flat wagon with low folding sides and ends, described as an Engine Wagon. The diagram book gives its HR number as 2147 but there is some confusion about its LMS number as 297232 or 297233 are quoted in different sources. Both sources agree that the LMS recorded it as being built in 1875. As you would now expect, having read this far in the thread, it has the usual Jones features of narrow headstocks and inverted T crown plates. The diagram gives the sides and ends as 6" high but at some time the sides were increased in height and it became part of the HR breakdown train, with added footboards and handrails. It survived a very long time as it was not scrapped until the 1950s. The following photograph was taken by JL Stevenson in 1952.

The wagon also appears in several photographs in the first volume Peter Tatlow's railway crane books. I haven't built a model yet as I haven't seen a photograph of it in original condition but I think I will have to make some assumptions and get on with it.

Type O was the apparently un-numbered breakdown crane match truck. It also appears in the photographs in the breakdown crane book. It is a very similar looking wagon to the modified 2147, with an added support for the crane boom. It was 19'6" long on the same 13' overall wheelbase. Peter Tatlow has drawn this wagon as part of the crane drawing, and uses the same drawing to illustrate both Type O in original condition and the modified Type N wagon. I haven't checked the dimensions but the photographs show that the Type O match truck had an extra hinge at the centre of the side so there appear to be two doors each side and the wagons were different lengths. So take care if you are building models of the HR breakdown train.

Type P was a six wheel tank wagon for tar only 16' long on a 11' wheelbase. From the diagram it looks like the much later post grouping six wheel milk and beer tank wagons. I think I have found it in a photograph but it is part obscured and not totally clear, I am not sure so won't show it here. It could be the Loch Ness monster hiding at Blair Atholl. I would like to build a model but can't without more information.

That just leaves the brake vans to complete this ramble through early Highland Railway goods stock. I would like to be able to say the brake vans are simple because there are only a few types in the diagram book but it would not be true. Even one I have looked into in detail and built models of has some major anomalies in the information available. Next time.

 

[Overseer]

A quick quiz to check if people have been concentrating. It will also help to explain how Jones' wagons were so distinctive and shows the later HR livery well.

This photograph and caption appear in Highland Railway Liveries. Who can tell us what is wrong, and what does the photo show?

A look at the first post in the thread may help. No prizes (I thought about offering a polyurethane body for the Jones Type C open but the quiz isn't difficult enough).

 

[JimG]

Crownplates?

Jim.

 

[AJC]

Crownplates?

Jim.

And the headstocks? They look comparatively 'normal'. The handbrake mechanism is rather snazzy, never seen anything quite like that on any other railway.

Adam

 

[Overseer]

Well spotted Jim and Adam. The only thing wrong in the clipping is the first word in the caption - Jones. The photograph shows a Drummond rebuild of a Jones wagon. The only parts remaining from the Jones wagon are the number and builders plates, the corner plates, the hinges and the outside knees. All of Jones' innovative features have gone. The body is narrower and has curb rails, normal length headstocks, normal crown plates, normal wagon sized wheels and the characteristic Drummond family buffers with a single rib to the outside (bolts through to a single strap on the solebar). Peter Drummond put a lot of effort into rebuilding wagons on the Highland to end up with smaller more archaic looking wagons. Even the standard Drummond brake was more primitive than the Jones brake, although the photo shows an unusual extra lever which looks a bit like a simpler version of the McIntosh patent brake. Who knows what the motivation was? As the 1924 photograph in the first post shows Jones wagons were quite durable when left alone. Maybe he had a dislike of inverted T crown plates. The Highland went from having one of the more original and innovative locomotive and rolling stock engineers in Britain to possibly the least original, most derivative engineer. Peter Drummond did design some good looking locomotives but they were styled to look very like Dugald Drummond designs.

The photo does show the post-Jones livery well.

 

[Sandy Harper]

I don't often dip into Western Thunder but as a HR modeller of 25 + years I think I should do, more often!!

A fascinating article.

Like you, I had scratch built a number of HR goods wagons in the past but I really did not know what I was actually building! I do now!!

I also managed to build a Jones Tank in 7mm 20 years ago and remember the instruction to 'dispose of the etched wrapper and make your own'. Very helpful! Not!

Kind regards
Sandy Harper

 

[warren haywood]

Hi Sandy, you should look in more often, it's a wonderful site, I learn something new here every day
Warren

 

[Overseer]

Hi Sandy,

Good to hear from you. How about posting photos of your Highland wagons, carriages and locos? I am sure there will be an appreciative audience here.

Fraser

 

[Sandy Harper]

Ok, something to be going on with.
Sandy
View attachment 30928

 

[Rob Pulham]

Hi Sandy, a like doesn't quite do that line up in the last photo justice

 

[Sandy Harper]

Thank you Rob. Much appreciated.
Sandy

 

[Overseer]

I finally bought a copy of Peter Tatlow's Highland Railway Carriages and Wagons book at a local book shop yesterday. I haven't read it all yet but it looks good. The reproduction of the photographs is very good, most have been published before but they are much clearer in this book. There are some photos I hadn't seen before. Peter Tatlow's drawings are very good and it is useful to have them compiled together. It can be recommended to anyone with any interest in rolling stock. However, I don't think it fills many of the gaps in our knowledge of the early and Jones periods, as I had been hoping for.

I had held off posting about brake vans until I had a copy of the book to see if it explained an apparent anomaly with the Type A vans. The Type A vans looked something like this-

This is my unfinished model (still without footboards and brake gear, ironically for a brake van) from my polyurethane castings. I should finish it and take some better photos without the dust.

The anomaly is that it has an obviously Jones design underframe but the LMS recorded the introduction date as 1901. The LMS records may not be correct but there seem to be no pre 1895 photographs showing one of these vans. Tatlow has avoided discussing the date of these vans at all. Another odd thing about these vans is that they were known as Klondike vans, but why? The Klondike gold rush in Alaska didn't begin until 1896 and the Highland Railway Herring trains on the Kyle line were given the Klondike name shortly afterwards. These vans don't appear to be the most suitable van available for a fairly high speed express run, logic would suggest one of the larger six wheel vans would be more suitable for these trains. So what was the origin of these vans? Were they rebodied Jones vans of unknown appearance? One possibility is that they were built during Drummond's tenure on secondhand underframes, and the most likely candidate with the same wheelbase and dimensions are the Type K fish wagons. Is this why they were called Klondikes? It is very unusual for Drummond to have retained any Jones features on rebuilt rolling stock.

Sorry for asking so many questions. But I would like some answers…..

 

[hatfielddoc]

Just revisited this fascinating thread and have just noticed the covered goods van in the back ground behind the sheeted carriage.This appears to have 2 verticals between the end and the doors,as per Hunters sketches.Could this be an early version of type Q,
Ian

 

[Overseer]

Just revisited this fascinating thread and have just noticed the covered goods van in the back ground behind the sheeted carriage.This appears to have 2 verticals between the end and the doors,as per Hunters sketches.Could this be an early version of type Q,
Ian

It is possible but without the solebar or the rest of the van being visible it is hard to know. Most of the other Scottish railways had similar vans, most if not all being narrower than the Highland ones. For example the similar looking North British vans had the verticals continue down over the solebars so the body was only as wide as the underframe.

 

[Overseer]

hatfielddoc's query reminded me there are more glimpses of vans amongst the George Washington Wilson photographs, a few of which may be Highland Railway. One is towards the left side of this image taken at Aberfeldy - it looks like it might be a covered carriage truck but could be a HR type S van. The vans to the right are almost certainly not Highland, probably North British Railway.


I thought I had spotted a HR van when I first found this image, but looking at it in more detail it is certainly not Highland Railway and is probably Great North of Scotland Railway as it is in Fraserburgh. Could be an interesting scene to model though.


There are also quite a number of photographs showing Edinburgh Waverley station, and elsewhere, showing interesting glimpses of 1870s and 1880s rolling stock, but I haven't been able to positively identify any Highland stock in them. All this really means is there are lots of unknowns so if anyone has more information I for one would be very pleased to hear from them.

 

[Peter Bunce]

Hi, I am a new boy here and I think the van behind the goods shed(?) at Aberfeldy, with the quite sharp roof radii, for Scottish vehicles, is a Caledonian Railway Refrigerator van, built from 1906. I built one from a drawing in a HMRS plan book of a long time ago and still useful.



Having found the 4mm scale vehicle here is a photo of it: a bit poor as it was a 'grabbed shot' today on a window sill and inside as well; behind it for contrast is a normal radii CR covered Van.

The 3 posts per side of the central cupboard doors on the right are I think the original style of Great North Of Scotland vans; later the had diagonal strapping and also diagonal stiffoning added to the door, and ends. There is a understandably poor photo (due to the early date) of the Ladysbridge Asylum, and in front of it is the station: in those photos there with some more such vans, with no visible lettering, in the GNSR Yahoo chat site. There would however be a number plate for the vehicles on the solebars.

Yours Peter.

 

[Overseer]

Hi, I am a new boy here and I think the van behind the goods shed(?) at Aberfeldy, with the quite sharp roof radii, for Scottish vehicles, is a Caledonian Railway Refrigerator van, built from 1906. I built one from a drawing in a HMRS plan book of a long time ago and still useful.



Having found the 4mm scale vehicle here is a photo of it: a bit poor as it was a 'grabbed shot' today on a window sill and inside as well; behind it for contrast is a normal radii CR covered Van.

The 3 posts per side of the central cupboard doors on the right are I think the original style of Great North Of Scotland vans; later the had diagonal strapping and also diagonal stiffoning added to the door, and ends. There is a understandably poor photo (due to the early date) of the Ladysbridge Asylum, and in front of it is the station: in those photos there with some more such vans, with no visible lettering, in the GNSR Yahoo chat site. There would however be a number plate for the vehicles on the solebars.

Yours Peter.

Peter, welcome and thanks for the input. We can be certain the van in the photo wasn't the CR van built in 1906 as the photo dates from the 1880s. Nice model though. I am also fairly sure the vans to the right of the picture are North British because they are with other North British stock, but it is possible that they could be from almost any of the Scottish railways at the time. Part of the same photo appeared in post 36 showing the HR sheep van and it shows another van further to the right which is an early NBR van with roof doors. Two similar NBR vans, one with the roof door and one with a bottom flap door, to those at Aberfeldy appear in one of the 1870s Edinburgh Waverley photos -


The lack of large lettering on rolling stock before 1900 does make it difficult to identify glimpses of wagons in historic photographs. The illiteracy symbols are often quite small and difficult to see and the numberplates on the solebar are often obscured.

Perhaps you could start a thread on your wagons, there will be plenty of interest.