Ian@StEnochs
Western Thunderer
As described by most teachers in Scotland as the Curriculum for Excrement! Such is the regard it is held in.
No idea what coal is!
- Thread starter Rob Pulham
- Start date
- Status
John Duffy
Western Thunderer
I have recently had two children go through the Scottish education system very successfully but the entire process was designed to get them to pass exams and not to give them a proper, wide ranging education. There are huge gaping holes in the curriculum. There is also a huge lacking in critical thinking or application of knowledge. We remain overly focused on memory above understanding.
The same gap in critical thinking is what is currently causing the acceptance, without genuine challenge of the so called facts that are presented as gospel in relation to human influence on the weather.
76043
Western Thunderer
Going back to the original set of points, the OP was talking about 7-9 year olds. I recall that in my education, coal didn't come up until I studied geography and it's subset, geology as a subject when 11 and older. Likewise, the industrial revolution was covered in History in secondary education.
I'm not sure I expect primary education to cover coal, not then (1970's) or now.
Tony
I'm not sure I expect primary education to cover coal, not then (1970's) or now.
Tony
Last edited:
simond
Western Thunderer
I guess there has to be some editing, as there isn’t time to teach them everything.
But my daughter joked recently about her relative lack of knowledge of WW2, but how “they taught her everything about 1066”.
I suspect every new Education Secretary has an agenda to make sure they are remembered as the one that “sorted it out”, but frankly the only qualification most of them have is that they went to school….
Osgood
Western Thunderer
No worries, Rob - I guess it was going to go one way or the other
Another example - maybe 15 years ago a 16 year-old who had grown up in a rural community in East Anglia, and who was waitressing in a local pub, asked the chef "Where does cheese come from?" (and they were still mining cheese locally back then
).Would it be reasonable to suggest that some children are dependant upon schools and other influences outside the home for all of their education (even potty training in some cases it would seem....), whilst their parents contribute nothing?
It is unrealistic to expect schools to be able to teach them everything - you might expect them to pick up at least something of their doorstep heritage from other sources (parents, their environment).
Schools used to teach a way of learning - whatever use was Latin other than a discipline of using one's brain and understanding how a language is constructed?
My history input up to 0 level got as up to date as Pitt The Younger (died 1806) - not for me WW2 or even WW1, all that came from outside the school environment, from parents who thought it was important for me to understand a bit of how we got to where we were, and from interacting with people who experienced those times (grandad, who also guarded the local golf course during WW2 with the Home Guard and taught me how to roast hedgehog on an open fire - no practicals were involved and even back then I found it truly awful but they had to eat), and from books (remember books?
).
Last edited:
simond
Western Thunderer
I’ll nail my colours to the mast.
The climate is changing, what proportion of that is attributable to human activity, and what to variability in solar or geothermal activity is more difficult to determine, but given the massive change in world population over the last century, and the wholesale burning of fossil fuels, it might be rather foolhardy to discount the CO2 hypothesis.
despite being a dyed-in-the-wool petrolhead, this is quite convincing:
svs.gsfc.nasa.gov
The climate is changing, what proportion of that is attributable to human activity, and what to variability in solar or geothermal activity is more difficult to determine, but given the massive change in world population over the last century, and the wholesale burning of fossil fuels, it might be rather foolhardy to discount the CO2 hypothesis.
despite being a dyed-in-the-wool petrolhead, this is quite convincing:
NASA Scientific Visualization Studio | NASA Climate Spiral 1880-Present
The NASA climate spiral visualization of the GISTEMP global temperature record.
svs.gsfc.nasa.gov
How much is due to burning of fossil fuels is impossible to determine. Humans produce CO2 and consume large quantities of animals that also produce CO2 and other more global-warming emissions. We cut down carbon storing vegetation in order to have space for ourselves and our livestock. Increased CO2 in the atmosphere promotes plant growth which captures the carbon so normally it would be a self regulating mechanism. The balance has been upset and is likely to get worse even if we abandon fossil fuel use in all forms.
There ends the cheerful thought for the day!
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
The historical side of my schooling was basically the Romans, Saxons, etc.etc. bit about Tudors but nothing regarding I recall about the industrial revolution, Victorians or the world wars, that I learnt from my Father and Grandfathers who were all involved in them in some way.No worries, Rob - I guess it was going to go one way or the other
Another example - maybe 15 years ago a 16 year-old who had grown up in a rural community in East Anglia, and who was waitressing in a local pub, asked the chef "Where does cheese come from?" (and they were still mining cheese locally back then View attachment 240455).
Would it be reasonable to suggest that some children are dependant upon schools and other influences outside the home for all of their education (even potty training in some cases it would seem....), whilst their parents contribute nothing?
It is unrealistic to expect schools to be able to teach them everything - you might expect them to pick up at least something of their doorstep heritage from other sources (parents, their environment).
Schools used to teach a way of learning - whatever use was Latin other than a discipline of using one's brain and understanding how a language is constructed?
My history input up to 0 level got as up to date as Pitt The Younger (died 1806) - not for me WW2 or even WW1, all that came from outside the school environment, from parents who thought it was important for me to understand a bit of how we got to where we were, and from interacting with people who experienced those times (grandad, who also guarded the local golf course during WW2 with the Home Guard and taught me how to roast hedgehog on an open fire - no practicals were involved and even back then I found it truly awful but they had to eat), and from books (remember books?
Do remember a project about the timber industry, from growing the trees, where, and the different species and what they were used for right up to end product. I suspect that was largely my Fathers influence being a Carpenter/building contractor, probably knew how a house was built when I was 8 years old .
I spent a lot of my time pre-teenage years in my Father's workshop so I learnt at lot more about practical skills then academic subjects
Roast hedgehog on the fire ? the nearest I got to that was baked potatoes and apples in the bonfire
Col.
Ian@StEnochs
Western Thunderer
Nail firmly hit on the head there Simon.
The school is not the main educator of any child — that role falls to the parents/guardians. Apart from anything else, just look at the amount of time in school compared with home. What happens in school can make a huge difference but it can’t replace the parental role.No worries, Rob - I guess it was going to go one way or the other
Another example - maybe 15 years ago a 16 year-old who had grown up in a rural community in East Anglia, and who was waitressing in a local pub, asked the chef "Where does cheese come from?" (and they were still mining cheese locally back then View attachment 240455).
Would it be reasonable to suggest that some children are dependant upon schools and other influences outside the home for all of their education (even potty training in some cases it would seem....), whilst their parents contribute nothing?
It is unrealistic to expect schools to be able to teach them everything - you might expect them to pick up at least something of their doorstep heritage from other sources (parents, their environment).
Schools used to teach a way of learning - whatever use was Latin other than a discipline of using one's brain and understanding how a language is constructed?
My history input up to 0 level got as up to date as Pitt The Younger (died 1806) - not for me WW2 or even WW1, all that came from outside the school environment, from parents who thought it was important for me to understand a bit of how we got to where we were, and from interacting with people who experienced those times (grandad, who also guarded the local golf course during WW2 with the Home Guard and taught me how to roast hedgehog on an open fire - no practicals were involved and even back then I found it truly awful but they had to eat), and from books (remember books?
cbrailways
Western Thunderer
Not coal but signalling. I am (well, was until recent health issues) a volunteer signalman on a heritage railway. You would be supprised how many visitors ask if they can come and have look in the signalbox not knowing anything about it (we are lucky that the box is on the end of the station platform). One of the most rewarding visits for me was when a group of disabled children visited and were determined to climb the signalbox steps to see what it was all about. I still vividly remember their faces when they had a chance to pull some levers and watch the points and signals operate. To cap it all their teachers asked if they could have a go as well!!
Oz7mm
Western Thunderer
Sadly many parents abdicate from that role, leaving everything from potty training and the use of cutlery to early schooling where the time should be better spent. Absent fathers (how many news stories feature a single mother?) add to the gaping void. Career mothers delegating every day responsibilities to nursery schools.
Almost 50 years ago my wife was helping at the village primary school and read a story to a group of 5 year olds. She asked one boy if he liked the story, and he replied "Yes, no-one's ever read a story to me before"
I do wonder about critical thinking. I have a granddaughter (currently doing A levels) who is a sponge for knowledge. While she seems to have a good understanding of anything we discuss, I wonder how well she would do in applying that knowledge.
But before we despair totally on modern education, and the ignorance of coal, perhaps we should consider all the things we ourselves don't know, Donald Rumsfeld's "unknown unknowns". It could be us who aren't keeping up.
John
alastairq
Western Thunderer
Certainly in the 1960's my primary edumacation [divided though it was] covered oil! I wrote a project in my last year at primary school [5th form] with much input from Shell. One wrote to them and asked for bumph...One got a load of bumph back, all very interesting. Even better bumph was to be had if one's project involved cocoa beans!
alastairq
Western Thunderer
In my primary education, WW2 wasn't , at that point, deemed 'history!'
Not when some of the older teachers had actually fought in it!
alastairq
Western Thunderer
Which works fine, providing there are parents, or even, a conventional ''home,'' to go to?
I was part of a 'divided' family when I was a child, in the 1950's and 1960's. I had a mother...some of the time. I had a divorced father, who I cannot clearly even recall.
My mother didn't take advantage of the budding welfare state, or ''social''....She came from a very 'middle class' family [in the pre-WW2 sense]... and due to maternal pressure [one doesn't do that sort of thing, thing?] didn't take advantage of what local government could offer a ''single'' parent.
As a result, my upbringing from an early age either resulted from being 'dumped' on fairly unwilling, near-relatives [sometimes even 'close,' unwilling, relatives!] or in boarding school environments.
Some genuine, but not officially authorised, fostering was done as well...probably the best part of my pre-secondary school life...as it meant I went to a ''proper'' junior school, like all the other kids I came across!
Prior to that, I was a free pupil at a 'preparatory' school, where my mother was employed as an 'assistant matron!,' & had a 'room' as her residence. I was incarcerated within the boarding school proper.
The point being, at the Prep school [whose pupils went up to the age 14...''Common Entrance Exam' stage]...]...I received, and for the most part, enjoyed, a level of education normally found in State secondary schools. Latin was taught, as was French, German, etc...as well as maths, especially trigonometry, at which I excelled. History went up to WW1, but was a bit close to the button for WW2! Geography was, as I later found out, well up to O level standards. Progression was by end-of-term exams....Thus as a 9 year old, I could find myself in the same classes for some subjects, as 13 or 14 year olds.
I was never going to find myself in a 'public ' school [Repton, I think, was the usual recipient of pupils from this particular Prep school?]
Mother had mental health issues anyway, and throughout my childhood would disappear into a psychiatric hospital for treatment of some sort [probably involving electric shocks, which seemed to be the treatment of choice for mental health issues in those days?] on an irregular basis.
When I found myself fostered at age 9 [and a bit], I also changed school...to a proper, primary school as befitted my age.
There, I was totally lost!
The education [lessons] on a variety of subjects was alien to me....I struggled with the 'arithmetic'....as that had passed me by some 3 or 4 years previously. I was regressing badly, as I had to take educationally backward steps.
I was good at cricket, however.
As well as English of the literature sort....
I passed my 11+, and immediately got sent to a County Council grammar school with boarding facilities.
The point being, I suppose, that both the Prep school, and the Grammar boarding school, had strict, specified times set aside during the evening, for 'homework!'
Which meant, pupils [or, ''inmates?''] received not just the 9 to 4-15 [with a lunch break] , normal day education, but also another compulsory 3 hours sat in a classroom, doing what might be called, 'homework!' {Not forgetting, both schools also did Saturday mornings. ]
So, 5 1/2 days school attendance, then another 3 hours every night except Sundays, for 'homework!
Yup, at both types of school we got a mandatory 3 hours' worth of homework.
When I eventually got myself into a normal, everyday, grammar school [with girls, too]...homework amounted to around half an hour if we were unfortunate.
No Saturdays, either....Plus, school was 'out' by 4 o'clock!
When I drove buses, and did 'school bus runs,' I was amazed that the kids [no longer ''pupils,'' in my eyes
]..were leaving school from 3.30!They were also not 'in class' much before 9.30 A.M.
My own kids were the same.
In many ways, spending less time at school, compared to kids in the 50's and 60's, was maybe, a good thing?
Or am I mistaken?
Neil
Western Thunderer
..... and just what would be this woke s**t that they teach in schools then?
There seems not to be one clear definition of 'woke' but there is commonality centred around a heightened awareness of social inequalities and injustices also a willingness to take action to address those injustices. This to me sounds like a good thing who wouldn't want young people growing up with sensitivity and respect for others and a desire to stand up for those less fortunate for themselves.
76043
Western Thunderer
I do think it's worth looking at the entomology of the word "woke". The first use of "woke", appearing on a 1938 recording by the musician Lead Belly. The track, entitled 'Scottsboro Boys', describes the plight of nine young Black men wrongly accused of rape in Alabama in 1931.
The idea being, stay woke, look out for yourself and don't get lynched.
Tony
The idea being, stay woke, look out for yourself and don't get lynched.
Tony
simond
Western Thunderer
I think Kathy Burke commented that it was better to be “woke” than “a dozy <censored>”
Made me giggle anyway
But perhaps we are straying into territory best left to other discussion forums?
adrian
Flying Squad
Agreed - a suitable point to lock the thread I suspect.
- Status