7mm On Heather's Workbench - another other Twin

[Heather Kay]

Hi Heather

Have you seen this?:

Pity there's no loco sound!

Tim

Ooh, that brings back some memories! I pored over that on VHS video when trying to build an RJH model of 10000 for Best Beloved's half century.

I think it's generally accepted the EE Type 4 is the best match for what the Twins might have sounded like. The Class 40s used same power plant and traction gear. The only awkward thing might be the horn sound, which is described in the book as:

"...a single, deep note somewhat reminiscent of the Caledonian and Stanier 'hooters'…"

That might be fun trying to find without it sounding like a steam whistle!

 

[Dikitriki]

Hi Heather,

This somewhat dated Heyside video will show you what the commercial 10000 chip sounds like.....

IIRC, Steph didn't rate it, but I don't know any better

Richard

 

[Steph Dale]

Heather,
I don't agree with that. To give you an idea the Class 56 also uses much the same powerplant, but I don't think anyone would say they sound like a Class 40! The differences between the engines in this family (10000, Class 40, Class 50, Class 56) are in their turbocharging and engine speed. Higher turbo pressure + more speed = more power!
I have come across the odd bit of sound footage of the twins and my perception is that they have rather more of a 'chug', without the all-pervading turbo whistle. For Dad's locos we went with a non-refurbished Class 37 sound with Desilux horns...
Steph

 

[Heather Kay]

Thanks for that, Steph. All grist to the mill, as they say.



This is the result, or at least one quarter of, my efforts today. The spring safety cages sort of worked out okay. In order to speed production up I soldered ten layers of the thin sheet together, and cut them all out from the block in one go. Things still needed a little fettling to sit right, but it made it less of a chore.

The other chore I've been putting off - it's a failing of mine I must deal with - was the hornguide lubricator pipes. All done now, so apart from the sanding pipes the bogies and underframe are ready for primer and paint.

 

[richard carr]

Heather

Its all looking good.

As for the sound there is no doubt that classes 31,37,40 and 50 all have a similar sound to them, but as no one can now know what they sounded like, you could really choose any of those. Personally I wouldn't choose a 40, the whistle is too distinctive in my view.

Richard

 

[Heather Kay]

You are probably right. I tend to think 40 as it's the most direct descendant of the LMS locos, at least as far as the engine and associated electrical system was concerned.

If they ever get their act together, the Ivatt Diesel Recreation Society will let us have a good idea of what 10000 actually sounded like. So far, I know they have one genuine 16SVT, an option on the spare EM2 bogies at Butterley, and are trying to get their hands on a Class 58 before they all get scrapped. The latter loco is thought to be suitable for the fish belly underframe, which would save an awful lot of engineering, and perhaps traction motors and control systems.

 

[Overseer]

Heather
This might help with the sound - http://www.johnnyspages.com/rail_dittys.htm#900_class_lady_norrie . There is a link to a wmv file. It is a 1983 video of a South Australian Railways 900 class. The 900 class were fitted with English Electric 16SVT engines and EE electrical gear and are similar vintage to the LMS pair. The video looks OK but I haven't worked out how to get the sound to work on the Mac so haven't heard it myself yet. Presumably the exhaust system would be different and the 900 couldn't reach 90mph so there will be differences in the sound. There are probably more recent videos with sound as some operated in preservation into the 1990s.

Edit: I downloaded a file converter, sounds good and reminds me of the EAR/Kenya Railways 87 class so an original 37 class sound file would probably work even though they have less cylinders. Showing my ignorance, how does dcc recreate the very distinct transitions? The other distinctive sound up close are the traction motor blowers working flat out while starting, presumably these would be turned down once underway when less amps were being fed to the traction motors.

 

[oldravendale]

Here you go, then. This is the only recording of which I'm aware, starting with 10203 and then 10000/1. Both recorded on Shap. It's a commercial copyright recording and I've copied it here purely for the research aspect of this discussion. Please do not copy or otherwise pass it on.

It's from "Diesels through the Decades", the earliest recording being in 1958 and the latest in 1980. The recording here was in August 1958. Looking at the sleeve I believe that "Rail Express" may have had something to do with the production. The bar code number is 5 027683 462012 as I susoect there may now be a rush to get hold of a copy.

Anyway, the Class 40 clearly does sound wrong. Note the total absence of a whistle to the engine notes on both the ex-SR loco and the LMS pair. Having heard this I opted for a Class 37 engine and had this burned on to a chip, I think by Howes of Oxford, together with a Stanier hooter.

Enjoy, and be amazed, in either order.

Brian

And.....having written all that I find that I can't attach the file. May I suggest that all interested parties contact me via a PM with their email address and I'll attach to an email - unless someone can tell me how to attach a sound file on WT. BTW, I've never done You Tube so don't know whether I could make that work or, indeed, whether it would allow me to download even if that's an appropriate format.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Here's an alternative thought. Would one of the Flying Squad like to take the file and provide it in a format which is WT compatible? If so please PM me with email address. (Always assuming that this item is of sufficient interest).

B

 

[TheSnapper]

Here you go:

Definitely sounds like a "Big '37" to me

Wonder what it sounded like on tickover?

Tim

 

[Pugsley]

Watching the video of the SAR 900 class, I think the sound of that is somewhere between a 50 and a 31, so 10000 is likely to be similar, as borne out by the You Tube sound clip.

I reckon a tweaked '31' would do the job.

 

[Compton castle]

I'm not sure how reliable the sound is but 10201 & 10202 both appear on this video

 

[JimG]

I'm not sure how reliable the sound is but 10201 & 10202 both appear on this video

Most, if not all, the steam sound FX are not sync so could be of any locomotive. It's probable that the footage was shot mute and the cameraman may have recorded appropriate locomotive "wild" sound at the time, or at another time, and laid it on the film sound track after editing. I don't know about the diesel shots but I suspect that they have been treated the same way and the sounds may not be appropriate to the loco in the shot. I would treat with caution.

Jim.

 

[oldravendale]

Definitely sounds like a "Big '37" to me

Wonder what it sounded like on tickover?

Tim

Thanks Tim. That's the very one. As this CD was compiled and recorded by Peter Handford I'd guess we can rely on the descriptions.

Most, if not all, the steam sound FX are not sync so could be of any locomotive. I would treat with caution.

Jim.

Agreed, Jim. In fact the diesel sounds on this film for 10201 and 10202 seem to be reasonable, and in sync rather than a "wild" overlay, as do the steam sounds so perhaps there was sync sound recorded. However, as you say, "treat with caution".

It's interesting (to me at least) that listening again to the sounds of 10000/1 on the disc there is a background whistle to the exhaust, so maybe a Class 40 would do the trick after all. I guess you pays your money and takes your choice. Certainly, on the recording of 10203 there seems to be no whistle, although the sounds we are treating with caution, of 10201/2 at New Street seem to be whistling away quite merrily.

Confused of Ivinghoe

 

[JimG]

Agreed, Jim. In fact the diesel sounds on this film for 10201 and 10202 seem to be reasonable, and in sync rather than a "wild" overlay, as do the steam sounds so perhaps there was sync sound recorded. However, as you say, "treat with caution".

Brian, I don't want to divert from the thread too much , but sync sound in the 50s/60s would be the province of the professional using fairly hefty gear - 35mm or 16mm blimped cameras. The Nagra III, and other good portable recorders only started appearing from 1961 onwards and they would have cost an arm and a leg in those days. Apart from the sound recorders, most 16mm cameras were unblimped and mostly bl**dy noisy (Bolex wasn't too bad) and 8mm cameras had no facilities for sync.

I remember laying a sound track for an 8mm film in 1960 - on 1/4" tape running in "sync" using a Eumig (I think) projector which had a 1/4" tape capstan running with the sprockets. Apparent sync was very much "it fits where it touches" , and I can't remember where we sourced the sound effects. We had access to mains powered tape recorders, but certainly no battery powered mobile ones for gathering exterior sound. I was reminded of that time when I looked at the film mentioned above.

Jim.

 

[Steph Dale]

Certainly, on the recording of 10203 there seems to be no whistle, although the sounds we are treating with caution, of 10201/2 at New Street seem to be whistling away quite merrily.

Confused of Ivinghoe

I'm confused too, 10203 was mechanically identical to a Class 40, so I'm sure that she would have whistled even if the other 4 locos of that generation didn't!

Steph

 

[Heather Kay]

I honestly don't mind the diversion. It's very interesting.

In an effort to drag things back on the main topic, though, I have been applying paint to various surfaces.



The cabs, getting their first few coats done. Meanwhile, steeping in the drying cabinet, the underframe has been rattlecan painted satin black, and the bogie frames have been shown some white primer. I'm currently debating whether airbrushing silver is worth the hassle, or whether to ingest paint fumes via a sable brush.

 

[oldravendale]

As it's my fault for starting the diversion I'll now try to stop it by responding to Jim - you are, of course, quite correct, and know more about film sound than I ever will. I suspect you are correct that this is some sort of effort at post sync. If so it's been done rather well but almost certainly not the genuine article.

I'm confused too, 10203 was mechanically identical to a Class 40, so I'm sure that she would have whistled even if the other 4 locos of that generation didn't!

Steph

I can only suggest that you listen to the recording yourself, Steph. I suspect that 10203 was probably travelling down hill, whereas 10000/1 were attacking the gradient, so 10203 may just have been drifting past. What effect that would have on exhaust whistle I'm in no position to say, but I think we can rely pretty well n a Peter Handford recording - unless someone knows different.

Here endeth the stuff about sound for the Twins and I'll hand the thread back to Heather - with thanks. (In fact it was a comment by Heather about the sound module for the twins which started this, so an discussion about the accuracy of recordings is possibly of value).

If there's any wish to discuss this further let's start a new one.

Brian

 

[Heather Kay]

It's no problem, Brian. As I said, it's been an interesting discussion, and if I'm honest any discussion about film and audio interests me!

Back on the build, though, I've been studying images to further understand how the engine compartment windows worked. Both locos suffered from excess heat in the engine compartments, and although various attempts were made to solve it, it was not unusual to see one or more windows open when running. I've been trying to work out how the windows worked. Off I went down the rabbit hole once more!

It has become apparent that the double window units were hinged about the centre divider. Rather like a two-door car rear window, the panel could be latched open. This accounts for the sometimes odd reflections and shadows in photos; in fact, once you know what to look for, you can spot the latch mechanism.

I am also of the opinion one or both frames could be dropped down into the body. Oddly, this isn't so obvious in photographs, with only one or two showing what appears to be a completely dropped frame. I can't for the life of me confirm this opening system, though, which is mightily frustrating.

I've also discovered, after studying these locos on and off for two decades, there was a dividing bulkhead at the end of the oily bit and the start of electrical bit. I really think I may have to consider this feature in the build…

I must rein in my detail freak. It gets me into trouble!

 

[Overseer]

These probably won't help with the model or the sound it should make, but they could be interesting and should help with confirming how similar or otherwise the various locos are. Maybe someone has the information for the 40 class for comparison.

First is the performance curves for 10000.

Then the data for 10000, the SR locos and the SAR 900 class. The differences in gearing make a big difference in top speed and starting tractive effort.

I am not sure if pressure charged equals supercharged, maybe the boost pressure is lower. From my experience turbo chargers cause a whistle in the exhaust sound while super chargers don't. But a whistling exhaust could be due to the shape of the pipework - as an example 1960s VW Beetles made a whistling sound due to a gasket with a smaller hole being used in the carburettor heater pipe, blank it off or put the large hole version of the gasket in and they stopped whistling.