7mm On Heather's Workbench - raising the Standard
- Thread starter Heather Kay
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- coaches jltrt mk1 coaches
richard carr
Western Thunderer
Heather
On my blood and custard gresleys I used gold gold for the lining, as are the ready built JLTRT gresleys that I have.
I made mine over 10 years ago and I can't remember why I choose gold gold, so that may not be much help to you.
For maroon livery it is yellow lining not gold and numbers too.
Richard
On my blood and custard gresleys I used gold gold for the lining, as are the ready built JLTRT gresleys that I have.
I made mine over 10 years ago and I can't remember why I choose gold gold, so that may not be much help to you.
For maroon livery it is yellow lining not gold and numbers too.
Richard
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
Thanks Richard. As you say, it doesn't really help! 
I am currently leaning towards cream for one coach, and gold for the other. According to the numbering I've chosen, the BSK would be the older coach and might well have left Wolverton in the spring of 1952 with gold lettering. The TSO can have cream, just for variety. I might confirm my choice with the client, but I don't suppose he'll be that bothered.
I'll let things stew over while I concentrate on getting the lining straight and level first.
I am currently leaning towards cream for one coach, and gold for the other. According to the numbering I've chosen, the BSK would be the older coach and might well have left Wolverton in the spring of 1952 with gold lettering. The TSO can have cream, just for variety. I might confirm my choice with the client, but I don't suppose he'll be that bothered.
I'll let things stew over while I concentrate on getting the lining straight and level first.
alcazar
Guest
I'm not sure how feasible it might be, but I had an idea of using eyelets in the underside of the roof, and running high strength fishing line up from the floor. It would need some method of securing the line under the floor, but it would be all but invisible, and readily adaptable to different floor plans.
Perhaps something for the next JLTRT kit I come across.
Sounds feasible. If you had TWO eyelets, one either side, a loop of fishing line could run down both sides and be secured through something similar to a multi-way wiring connector: a brass block with a hole through, tapped on top and a screw in the tappings to trap the line. Like this, but removed from it's insulation block: http://www.scame.com/en/infopoint/news/20091221.asp
In fact, if the line went under the floor, one such device placed centrally would trap both ends, and one, with two screws, could be sawn in half.......
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
Well, the client response to my suggested lettering options was positive. I'll probably complete both coach transfers today, then get them varnished for protection.
Meanwhile [cue Batman theme] - to the osteopath!
Mmm, that doesn't really work, does it.
Meanwhile [cue Batman theme] - to the osteopath!
Mmm, that doesn't really work, does it.
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
Lining out is doing my head in!
The secret, if there is one, to using Fox lining to best advantage I've found is to trim lengths no more than about 40mm at a time. If you try to do longer lengths, it inevitably tangles up and you waste a strip. Shorter lengths can be safely overlapped, and I find it best to cut lengths to fit over doors, and panel lines. It takes a little patience to get things lined up, horizontal and not bowed or twisted, but it's worth it.
Downsides are that a sheet has ten "lines" on it, but there are subtle differences in the width between them. This is a process error, and I doubt there's much you can do about it. You have to be aware of it so you don't try and match a thin line with a thick one.
Anyway, current state of play is both TSO and one BSK sides are lined and numbered, with one side to go. Looks like varnish will be tomorrow now.
The secret, if there is one, to using Fox lining to best advantage I've found is to trim lengths no more than about 40mm at a time. If you try to do longer lengths, it inevitably tangles up and you waste a strip. Shorter lengths can be safely overlapped, and I find it best to cut lengths to fit over doors, and panel lines. It takes a little patience to get things lined up, horizontal and not bowed or twisted, but it's worth it.
Downsides are that a sheet has ten "lines" on it, but there are subtle differences in the width between them. This is a process error, and I doubt there's much you can do about it. You have to be aware of it so you don't try and match a thin line with a thick one.
Anyway, current state of play is both TSO and one BSK sides are lined and numbered, with one side to go. Looks like varnish will be tomorrow now.
Heather
I am going to put the cat amongst the pigeons now re: coach liveries. I have a July 1949 pamphlet produced by Railway Pictorial and Locomotive Review on British Railways' Standard Liveries. It was produced with help from the Railway Executive.
To quote "Mainline Corridor Coaches, Compo - Brake, Third - Brakes, First - Brakes and also Brake Vans for use on principal passenger trains. Crimson Lake, with Cream Panels, Lined Gold and Black. Roof, Light Grey, Cornice, Black.
Cream Panel to be full height of window plus 1 inch above and below. Above and below the cream panel will run the black and gold lines, the former to be adjacent to the cream panel. The black line to be 3/4" and the gold line 3/8" in width. All other portions of the sides to be crimson lake. End of vehicles to be black.".
So at that time crimson lake was the colour for all steam hauled coaches, whether main-line or suburban. Crimson is also separately used in this pamphlet but only for various road vehicles. It does therefore seem that there are two different colours in use which are based on crimson.
I don't have any later pamphlet, say from the early fifties, to know if there were any further changes before the big changes in 1956.
Rob
I am going to put the cat amongst the pigeons now re: coach liveries. I have a July 1949 pamphlet produced by Railway Pictorial and Locomotive Review on British Railways' Standard Liveries. It was produced with help from the Railway Executive.
To quote "Mainline Corridor Coaches, Compo - Brake, Third - Brakes, First - Brakes and also Brake Vans for use on principal passenger trains. Crimson Lake, with Cream Panels, Lined Gold and Black. Roof, Light Grey, Cornice, Black.
Cream Panel to be full height of window plus 1 inch above and below. Above and below the cream panel will run the black and gold lines, the former to be adjacent to the cream panel. The black line to be 3/4" and the gold line 3/8" in width. All other portions of the sides to be crimson lake. End of vehicles to be black.".
So at that time crimson lake was the colour for all steam hauled coaches, whether main-line or suburban. Crimson is also separately used in this pamphlet but only for various road vehicles. It does therefore seem that there are two different colours in use which are based on crimson.
I don't have any later pamphlet, say from the early fifties, to know if there were any further changes before the big changes in 1956.
Rob
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
Hi Rob
Yes, your extract tallies with my understanding of the livery I'm working with. The next big change to what you've set out, notwithstanding the availability of otherwise of gold lettering transfers, came with the 1956 revisions. Mainline stock from then on was painted in maroon, lined yellow-black-yellow, with black ends. The Western Region and Southern Regions were allowed to use the chocolate and cream and stock green respectively, just to muddy the waters further.
The paint I'm using for the crimson, or crimson lake, is too purple for some tastes, but it's what I get in the tin from Phoenix Precision. Photos of the livery, allowing for fading and reproduction, is certainly much redder than the maroon tint I have. I had an interesting discussion with Adrian Swain at ScaleForum about just this problem, and how he is very fussy about what colour his mainline coaches are painted.
Yes, your extract tallies with my understanding of the livery I'm working with. The next big change to what you've set out, notwithstanding the availability of otherwise of gold lettering transfers, came with the 1956 revisions. Mainline stock from then on was painted in maroon, lined yellow-black-yellow, with black ends. The Western Region and Southern Regions were allowed to use the chocolate and cream and stock green respectively, just to muddy the waters further.
The paint I'm using for the crimson, or crimson lake, is too purple for some tastes, but it's what I get in the tin from Phoenix Precision. Photos of the livery, allowing for fading and reproduction, is certainly much redder than the maroon tint I have. I had an interesting discussion with Adrian Swain at ScaleForum about just this problem, and how he is very fussy about what colour his mainline coaches are painted.
Hi Heather
Agree with you over the 1956 changes and it was an interesting period seeing the trains I travelled on daily to and from school change their colours very gradually especially when the SR painted their stock green quicker than ER changed their stock to maroon. So for quite a while SR green stock with ER crimson lake and cream mixed, this was on the cross-country Bournemouth - York trains.
This pamphlet has got quite a good representation of the crimson lake livery but it is an ink colour not a paint swatch. It is interesting to note how the crimson lake looks slightly different when set against the cream as opposed to an all crimson lake vehicle. I have to say that many of the paints look wrong when compared to this pamphlet and certainly was quite different to a coach for the Okehampton layout at the club.
Agree with you over the 1956 changes and it was an interesting period seeing the trains I travelled on daily to and from school change their colours very gradually especially when the SR painted their stock green quicker than ER changed their stock to maroon. So for quite a while SR green stock with ER crimson lake and cream mixed, this was on the cross-country Bournemouth - York trains.
This pamphlet has got quite a good representation of the crimson lake livery but it is an ink colour not a paint swatch. It is interesting to note how the crimson lake looks slightly different when set against the cream as opposed to an all crimson lake vehicle. I have to say that many of the paints look wrong when compared to this pamphlet and certainly was quite different to a coach for the Okehampton layout at the club.
This is very interesting but it should be remembered that we all see colours slightly differently anyway and military modellers do not seem to get quite so hung up on this subject.
With BR Rail Blue, it has been noted that back in that period coaches that spent their lives north of Inverness for example, faded far less than those that spent their lives in the South West of England - bleached by all that Cornish Riviera sun!
When I was coach building for customers it was the Precision Paints range that, for me, most closely captured the as I recalled/saw them and this applied to all the main five liveries applied to Mk.1 stock - seemingly different to your experience. I found the Precision blood & custard to be pretty well spot on to my memory of it at the very end of its period - as there was still the odd coach around in it in the very early 1960s. The BR/SR coach green & the brown & cream in the Precision range were in my view though absolutely perfect. The blue/grey and the BR coach maroon were good too.
One rider - I have no knowledge of whether the current paints [which might be made differently due to modern restrictions on certain ingredients] might have caused them to appear or dry differently now in terms of shade. My still quite large stocks of P. Paints were all purchased in the 1980s - but are still fine for all that!
DJP
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
Thanks for the input David. I do appreciate this kind of information. It's all helpful in building on the published references.
I have an N gauge Bachmann Farish FSK in "blood and custard" - which I bought as the first instalment of a currently dormant project - and the colours seem to match pretty closely to the Precision ones. I am not claiming the Precision crimson lake (or carmine, depending on who you read) is wrong, only that it appears to me to be a little dark compared to the few colour photos I have seen reproduced. The sides of the kits I'm working on had been painted by a previous owner, and the carmine/crimson was very much towards the scarlet end of things and seemed very bright.
I am not old enough to have seen the livery in real life. I have to rely on printed references - and recollections of those who can remember - to get a picture. My personal take on it is liveries did fade in service and cleaning and weathering makes a difference. Photos taken in bright sunlight will have a different hue to those taken on an overcast day, and that's before we get into the vagaries of different colour transparency stock.
The worry is that what should be a "standard" colour, presumably with a BS number and pigment mixing specifications, will eventually be lost to us and we'll move on with an erroneous idea of what it should look like. Reproduced the LNWR livery has already reached that kind of point, with plenty of discussion about how blue the "spilt milk" panels should be. Adrian said his coaches were painted with a colour that had been matched to a sample from the real thing, and to him it matched his recollection of the colours in service. Who am I to argue with that?
A fascinating subject, but today I must finish lining and lettering the BSK.
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
Lining all done. A coat of protective satin varnish is now drying. No doubt I'll have to extricate some pesky dust particles before the next phase. 
My next task is chemically blackening all the various solebar step boards. I remembered I needed to fabricate the emergency lighting sockets, too. It's fiddly bits until the big day of assembling all the bits, which won't be far away now.
My next task is chemically blackening all the various solebar step boards. I remembered I needed to fabricate the emergency lighting sockets, too. It's fiddly bits until the big day of assembling all the bits, which won't be far away now.
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
I've been indulging in my favourite part of our hobby, that of reading books. I'm studying as many photos of trains in the 1950s and 1960s as I can find to get a flavour for a typical coach weathering pattern.
The brief, if you remember, assuming I mentioned it already, is for the coaches to be "slightly tired" in finish. I'm aiming for a typical finish for mainline express train stock. The underframes and ends will get a dusting of brake and track dirt, the sides will be relatively clean with grime in the nooks and crannies.
Having read through Martyn Welch's The Art of Weathering again, I think I may well perform the main side weathering while everything is still in kit form. Likewise for the roofs and underframes. Once assembled, I can consider a unifying dusting here and there.
I'm looking forward to it. It's been a good while since I made anything look like it's been in service a while.
The brief, if you remember, assuming I mentioned it already, is for the coaches to be "slightly tired" in finish. I'm aiming for a typical finish for mainline express train stock. The underframes and ends will get a dusting of brake and track dirt, the sides will be relatively clean with grime in the nooks and crannies.
Having read through Martyn Welch's The Art of Weathering again, I think I may well perform the main side weathering while everything is still in kit form. Likewise for the roofs and underframes. Once assembled, I can consider a unifying dusting here and there.
I'm looking forward to it. It's been a good while since I made anything look like it's been in service a while.
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
Okay, both sets of sides have been given a coat of satin, but I'm very disappointed with the lining.
I had the same problem with the Colletts. Essentially, the lining just doesn't lay flat. An edge, usually the gold one, lifts, so the lining is not uniform along the coach side. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong, as I follow Fox's instructions to the letter: gloss base coat, warm water with a touch of washing up liquid, short strips, immersed just long enough to get the transfer to slide from the backing paper. It's almost as if there's not enough adhesive left after manipulating the transfer into place. I even had one short section literally fall off as I picked up the side. There is also a difference in the thickness of lines across a sheet. I start at one end of a coach at one thickness, only to find the line gets thinner part of the way along a side.
Currently, while I sit here sneezing and snuffling through yet another cold - where I got this one from I can't begin to imagine - I am considering whether to just press on regardless, or to strip the lining back and have another go. I'm not keen on doing the latter because I can find better ways to spend four days of my time, frankly. Then again, I am not happy with the finish as it is, and it will annoy me if I don't do something about it. Ack!
The Collett's owner didn't complain about the bitty lining, but I am unhappy that the same problem has manifested on two more coaches. I'd like to show Fox the problem, but I won't be going to a show they're attending before I deliver the finished product. Perhaps detailed shots in an email to them might help.
*sigh*
I had the same problem with the Colletts. Essentially, the lining just doesn't lay flat. An edge, usually the gold one, lifts, so the lining is not uniform along the coach side. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong, as I follow Fox's instructions to the letter: gloss base coat, warm water with a touch of washing up liquid, short strips, immersed just long enough to get the transfer to slide from the backing paper. It's almost as if there's not enough adhesive left after manipulating the transfer into place. I even had one short section literally fall off as I picked up the side. There is also a difference in the thickness of lines across a sheet. I start at one end of a coach at one thickness, only to find the line gets thinner part of the way along a side.
Currently, while I sit here sneezing and snuffling through yet another cold - where I got this one from I can't begin to imagine - I am considering whether to just press on regardless, or to strip the lining back and have another go. I'm not keen on doing the latter because I can find better ways to spend four days of my time, frankly. Then again, I am not happy with the finish as it is, and it will annoy me if I don't do something about it. Ack!
The Collett's owner didn't complain about the bitty lining, but I am unhappy that the same problem has manifested on two more coaches. I'd like to show Fox the problem, but I won't be going to a show they're attending before I deliver the finished product. Perhaps detailed shots in an email to them might help.
*sigh*
Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
Hi Heather,
I too applied some Fox transfers on Wednesday, straw coach numbers this time to a Class 121, again exactly to the destructions, I picked the unit up last night from the box and one of the characters fell off
- should have put the Johnsons Kleer on soon after applying the transfers.
The 121 (Bachmann) is one that I have just purchased via the Guild Sales pages finished with a not too bad green liveried Tower paint job, numbered W55026, the prototype didn't have the large round buffers which the model has, hence the re-numbering (last two digits only) to W55034 and looks as if it can be remodelled into the current refurbed unit without too much work - mainly putting on the bits that Bachmann didn't - I'll put some notes on my workshop thread.
cheers
Mike
I too applied some Fox transfers on Wednesday, straw coach numbers this time to a Class 121, again exactly to the destructions, I picked the unit up last night from the box and one of the characters fell off
- should have put the Johnsons Kleer on soon after applying the transfers.The 121 (Bachmann) is one that I have just purchased via the Guild Sales pages finished with a not too bad green liveried Tower paint job, numbered W55026, the prototype didn't have the large round buffers which the model has, hence the re-numbering (last two digits only) to W55034 and looks as if it can be remodelled into the current refurbed unit without too much work - mainly putting on the bits that Bachmann didn't - I'll put some notes on my workshop thread.
cheers
Mike
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
I think there's something about the adhesive. If it's left too wet for too long it becomes too dilute - well, obviously. A pity, because otherwise I like the transfers. They're a lot less fiddle than the HMRS ones, though arguably the Pressfix/Methfix ones are better than waterslide.
Anyway, I have a brass LMS porthole coach which needs finishing for Best Beloved. I might try my hand at hand lining the B&C livery on it. How hard can it be? [/Clarkson]
Anyway, I have a brass LMS porthole coach which needs finishing for Best Beloved. I might try my hand at hand lining the B&C livery on it. How hard can it be? [/Clarkson]
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Okay, both sets of sides have been given a coat of satin, but I'm very disappointed with the lining.
I had the same problem with the Colletts. Essentially, the lining just doesn't lay flat. An edge, usually the gold one, lifts, so the lining is not uniform along the coach side. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong, as I follow Fox's instructions to the letter: gloss base coat, warm water with a touch of washing up liquid, short strips, immersed just long enough to get the transfer to slide from the backing paper. It's almost as if there's not enough adhesive left after manipulating the transfer into place. I even had one short section literally fall off as I picked up the side. There is also a difference in the thickness of lines across a sheet. I start at one end of a coach at one thickness, only to find the line gets thinner part of the way along a side.
Currently, while I sit here sneezing and snuffling through yet another cold - where I got this one from I can't begin to imagine - I am considering whether to just press on regardless, or to strip the lining back and have another go. I'm not keen on doing the latter because I can find better ways to spend four days of my time, frankly. Then again, I am not happy with the finish as it is, and it will annoy me if I don't do something about it. Ack!
The Collett's owner didn't complain about the bitty lining, but I am unhappy that the same problem has manifested on two more coaches. I'd like to show Fox the problem, but I won't be going to a show they're attending before I deliver the finished product. Perhaps detailed shots in an email to them might help.
*sigh*
Hi Heather
Fox don't do shows any more.
In my experience, their after-sales consists of 'not our problem, mate', and they are never, repeat, never in the wrong.
To be a little more helpful. It seems like you are washing all the glue away. I know they have to be kept wet to manipulate to position, but I use a wetted brush that I mix a bit on the un-transfered part of the sheet so I take some more glue with me, and avoid over-wetting the transfer. Then varnish ASAP.
Doesn't help you with out of register thickness of lines though.
I find Fox's products very expensive, Fox themselves very unhelpful, but they do probably have the best product for our purposes.
Richard
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
Hi Richard
Yes, I kind of got the "not our problem" implication in a thread on RMW. Ho-hum. The numbers, letters and badges transfers are great, it's just the lining that's iffy from what I can see.
Fox do mention using the spare part of the sheet technique, but there's not a whole lot of sheet around the lining they make. I must bear it in mind next time. Still, it's a bit academic now. I've decided I'm not going to take it all off and start again. What's done is done. Time to move on, or these coaches will never be finished in time!
Yes, I kind of got the "not our problem" implication in a thread on RMW. Ho-hum. The numbers, letters and badges transfers are great, it's just the lining that's iffy from what I can see.
Fox do mention using the spare part of the sheet technique, but there's not a whole lot of sheet around the lining they make. I must bear it in mind next time. Still, it's a bit academic now. I've decided I'm not going to take it all off and start again. What's done is done. Time to move on, or these coaches will never be finished in time!