7mm On Scots and Duchesses...

[Steph Dale]

Hi guys,

As many of you know, I'm not a modeller of the LMS and having ideas of building Rebuilt Royal Scots and Duchesses/Cities, I thought I'd ask for some opinions here.

There seem to be a few kits of each class:
Rebuilt Royal Scot; JLTRT (assumed to be the same as that from Chowbent), Gladiator, David Andrews (these last two assumed to be similar).
Duchess/City; Martin Finney, MMP (no longer available), Gladiator, David Andrews (these last two assumed to be similar), Tower/DJH.

So, what are the pros and cons of each? I think the Finney 'Duchess' is the one to have. To my eyes there seems to be something a little 'awry' around the firebox of the Gladiator and David Andrews kits. The MMP version is like hens teeth and the Tower/DJH one is produced by DJH...

But the 'Scot' is causing more confusion. I would suspect that the JLTRT is the one to have, but I'm not sure. Bizarrely, emailing Laurie got me some information on the 'King' kit, but not anything on the Royal Scot - and he hasn't responded to me after I replied! Google hasn't helped either; I got the JLTRT pages, a couple of pages which refer to the David Andrews kit and a load of hits on the Heljan 'Deltic'.

So I'd love to get some impressions from anyone who owns a built or unbuilt version of any of these kits. And, of course, it'd be great to know how well any of them go together!

Steph

 

[Rob Pulham]

Hi Steph,
I have the Finney Duchess in the drawer and I have a David Andrews Streamlined Duchess too. Both have really nice resin boilers and look the part unbuilt but I cannot offer any more comments than that at the moment.

 

[Dikitriki]

Hi Steph

It may not surprise you to know, given my prediliction for LMS standards, that I have either as built or in kit form, all of the kits on your list, except the JLTRT Scot.

Duchess - Martin Finney. One of the quickest and most enjoyable kits I have nearly finished

Royal Scot - David Andrews. I have not had a JLTRT one through my hands to comment. I took some pics of the David Andrews one (at the same time as I did the 1F), so it's a shelf queen. A lovely kit.



If you have any specific questions, want more photos, ask away.

Yours

Richard

 

[28ten]

That's almost finished, what's left to do?
Back O/T the Finney Duchess is indeed the one to go for, I did one many years ago and it was as easy as any loco of that size could be

 

[mickoo]

Ahhh! so your the owner of this fine specimen, I'd seen high rez shots on the web before and drooled but had it down in as a Gladiator kit. I did ask DA at Kettering if he'd scale up this kit for 1:32 and sadly his Coronation is 10mm , but I may just succumb to that as...well just because I can, it's a Coronation, I shouldn't really need any excuse .

Richard, which kit (or range of kits) had/has the best frame spacers, or more correctly the most authentic?.

I hope this thread runs long and detailed as I may just jump for a 7mm one of either of these because I'm a LMR devotee, note, thats 'green' with lion and wheel, not blue or maroon .

Steph, which ever you do get I heartily suggest getting the corresponding tomes from the LMS locomotive profiles series, you will not need for information, be it detail, painting or any other aspect, note the Coronation is much more detailed than the Royal Scot due to it's more recent publication. BTW which aspect of the firebox do you think is awry, a lot are built incorrectly with the throat ring set the wrong height which can throw off the whole look of the loco.

A polite correction if I may , they are Coronations, not Duchesses or anything else one wishes to call them .

Sincerely

 

[Dikitriki]

That's almost finished, what's left to do?

Cab interior and scoop operating gear, and just a few other odds and sods I can't remember. It has been tested over Heyside in its pre DCC days, so I know it runs everywhere. I just need more time in the day!

Richard

 

[Dikitriki]

Ahhh! so your the owner of this fine specimen, I'd seen high rez shots on the web before and drooled but had it down in as a Gladiator kit.

Richard, which kit (or range of kits) had/has the best frame spacers, or more correctly the most authentic?.

Sincerely

Thank you - and you are quite right. All my dealings were with David Andrews when I had the Scot, so I was remembering that. In fact it was under the Gladiator label, when DA was Gladiator (with Alan Bullock). I don't believe there is any difference, but the new Andrews kits might have just a little higher spec.

The Finney and Andrews kits have decent frame spacers, but it's some time since I looked closely, and my build predated my purchase of the LMS profile and other recent publications, so I didn't know any better at the time of construction.

If you want, I can fish out the Scot and Duchess Coronation and photograph the undergubbins for you.

Cheers

Richard

 

[mickoo]

Thank you - and you are quite right. All my dealings were with David Andrews when I had the Scot, so I was remembering that. In fact it was under the Gladiator label, when DA was Gladiator (with Alan Bullock). I don't believe there is any difference, but the new Andrews kits might have just a little higher spec.

The Finney and Andrews kits have decent frame spacers, but it's some time since I looked closely, and my build predated my purchase of the LMS profile and other recent publications, so I didn't know any better at the time of construction.

If you want, I can fish out the Scot and Duchess Coronation and photograph the undergubbins for you.

Cheers

Richard

Richard, ahh, you learn something new everyday, didn't know DA was part of Gladiator, so is the current DA kit the same as the Gladiator one?, ie one kit but two suppliers? or is the Gladiator a new set of etches.

I saw a Coronation in build at Kettering but didn't ask...couldn't get near the builder...who's kit it was, the frame spacers around the rear end looked especially good, I know you probably cannot see much of them on the model when completed but I like to know that it's all ship shape under there and that the bits you can see through the frames is just so, especially when you bend down for that line side view once in a blue moon LOL, it's the engineering side of me creeping through .

I like the idea of resin boilers and fireboxes but apparently one vendor (cannot remember who) was saying there's a trend against them because they are not 'metal' and thus detract from the hard core aspect of modelling, coming from a mixed media back ground in military modelling I find that ethos hard to comprehend, they certainly take the pain out of a one of the hardest parts of a steam engine to produce. I believe the JLTRT Royal Scot is resin boiler/ firebox too?.

If you get the chance, then that would be splendid, but please, no special exertions on my behalf, I just need to get to more shows and poke around LOL.

It wouldn't take much for me to forsake my 1:32 lust and banzai a few 7mm models simply because there's so much more choice of kits .

Kindest

 

[Dikitriki]

Hi Mick

The Gladiator kit is the original one designed by David Andrews. The David Andrews kit is to all intents and purposes the same, but slightly updated.

The Coronation you saw at Kettering was a David Andrews kit.

The JLTRT Scot as you rightly say has a resin smokebox/firebox/boiler (I had forgotten about that), and you can buy a super-detailing kit for it too (Why isn't that included in the price in the first place?). You may have seen the L&Y saddle tanks I am doing with the resin sadddle. It doesn't half make life easier.

It can be difficult finding out who does what at shows, you may be better asking here where there is a first class pool of knowledge. That assumes you know what you want to do!

Cheers

Richard

 

[Dog Star]

... you may be better asking here where there is a first class pool of knowledge...

Although the answer may well be "BLUE"...

 

[adrian]

I like the idea of resin boilers and fireboxes but apparently one vendor (cannot remember who) was saying there's a trend against them because they are not 'metal' and thus detract from the hard core aspect of modelling, coming from a mixed media back ground in military modelling I find that ethos hard to comprehend, they certainly take the pain out of a one of the hardest parts of a steam engine to produce. I believe the JLTRT Royal Scot is resin boiler/ firebox too?.

I don't understand that attitude either - unless the vendor in question didn't have the facilities or contacts to produce quality resin products! I think brass is ok for turnings but horrible for etchings which is why I like the David Andrew's kits as he offers all kits in nickel-silver for a small premium. I have my eye on a couple of his kits when funds permit and the extra for the nickel-silver version is well worth it IMHO.

 

[Steph Dale]

Mickoo,
Yep - I suspect the Princess Coronation you saw at Kettering was Bob Alderman's David Andrews' one. And it's actually Princess Coronation, not just 'Coronation'...
The JLTRT Scot does have a resin firebox/boiler/smokebox, which might be a problem for me - nowhere to put the sound chamber in the loco.
And the Wild Swan publications? Got 'em, or at least they're conveniently located for temporary liberation.

Richard,
It's the above point (and that I've seen a good few well-made David Andrews kits) that's making me wonder if the DA Scot might be the way to go - although I'd like to know what's in the JLTRT detail kit and whether that might be useful.
I'm also interested in getting the inside motion (where do I get it from for a Scot?) in either kit. And both would have Mitchell 'WD' tenders, so I'm sure you can work out what I'm aiming to do.

Graham,
Point taken on the livery, but in my case they'd both be in LMS post-war lined black...

Steph

 

[mickoo]

Steph, Yes I'd heard that too, in addition I've heard/read that they were originally 'Princess Royal Coronations', shortened to 'Princess Coronation', shortened again to 'Coronation', I think as each batch came out the class name just got shorter and shorter, I suppose it also depends on which source you use for information as even within the LMS records there appears to be differences of opinion as to what they are 'officially' called, Duchess being in the records too if what I've read is true .

That'll probably be the one, on the stand near to you, NS chassis if I recall, looked rather nice I must admit.

Sound, the tender is a nice cavernous affair?, space for a bigger speaker too.

WD tenders, 1948 trials per chance?.

Kindest

 

[Steph Dale]

WD tenders, 1948 trials per chance?.

Kindest

Of course - City of Bradford and The Hussar...

Steph

 

[Len Cattley]

Hi Steph, I am building a David Andrews Scot with JLTRT underframes detail kit. I have found a few problems with both but I am going on holiday Sat so won't be able to answer questions, I wish I went for the JLTRT instead, will try and some photos on here if you wish.

Len

 

[iploffy]

You had to ask if we want to see pictures ( that's rule 2)

 

[Steph Dale]

Hi Steph, I am building a David Andrews Scot with JLTRT underframes detail kit. I have found a few problems with both but I am going on holiday Sat so won't be able to answer questions, I wish I went for the JLTRT instead, will try and some photos on here if you wish.

Len

Yes please, Len!
I'd love to see your pics after following your postings on the 7mm Yahoo group.

Steph

 

[mickoo]

Back to the OP, I found these images on my HD, again from the interweb, forgotten owner or origin so copyright exists with them.

These are of the JLTRT Royal Scot.


Hope they help.

BTW what's the issue with DJH?.

Kindest

 

[Len Cattley]

Hi there Steph, it's still in the construction stage at the mo, not to the same standard as Richard unfortunately (can't work out how he does it with a flame).
Here is some pictures of the springs.
I had to space the brake blocks out so they were in-line with the wheels, I also found that they touched the brake blocks so had to grind them back so they didn't touch. It was a bit of a struggle making them fit but worth it as you can see. If I knew this I would have made the frame spacers wider and also got the wheels done to S7 profile as I believe this would have over come this problem.
Not wanting to take over your thread Steph I will leave it for now.

Len

 

[Steph Dale]

BTW what's the issue with DJH?, I had a close look at their A1 at Kettering and it looked pretty darn good to me?, as did their Britannia, and the A4 looks pretty respectable, though I do have a soft spot for white metal when used succinctly, I still feel their 47 is the best looking O gauge version out there.

Kindest

Because their chassis would be politely described as 'agricultural'. I've seen thinner material on battleships. Because of this they're a right royal pain to set up with any form of articulation/suspension and the general lack of finesse below the running plates grates with me. Especially when you consider the cost of the blasted things....

Hi there Steph, it's still in the construction stage at the mo, not to the same standard as Richard unfortunately (can't work out how he does it with a flame).
Here is some pictures of the springs.
I had to space the brake blocks out so they were in-line with the wheels, I also found that they touched the brake blocks so had to grind them back so they didn't touch. It was a bit of a struggle making them fit but worth it as you can see. If I knew this I would have made the frame spacers wider and also got the wheels done to S7 profile as I believe this would have over come this problem.
Not wanting to take over your thread Steph I will leave it for now.

Len

Len,

I like it very much; neat work. And useful info to allow to filter through the old grey matter. Don't worry about taking over the thread, in order to work out what I'd like to do I'm actively looking for peoples thoughts and judgement. If you're comfortable to post more pictures I'd welcome them.

I have to agree with you about widening the frame spacers, it's something I regularly do with David's kits.

Steph