Premier - Potter's pallet palaver

Osgood

Western Thunderer
And what was that East - West rail link all about then?
To take container traffic off the roads of course!

Oh but hang on - aren't most of those containers unloaded on the west coast ports and railed across the country only to disappear into the Channel Tunnel or be loaded onto another container ship at an east coast port, because it is cheaper to do so than run the container ship a little further down the west coast and up the channel to one of the main European ports?
:rolleyes:

I wonder how many go by road on the same journey?
 

James Spooner

Western Thunderer
I think the part of this debate that I find most disappointing is that it was not so long ago that the railways had it within their power to provide a door to door service, at a container level (and package level) but didn't build that into a supercompetitive machine.

Road will always be more flexible, but there must be efficiency and CO2 savings in using one driver and electric traction for the long distance leg.

Opportunity lost???



Philosophical thoughts for the day. What would Beeching have done if he had a crystal ball and could have foreseen the congestion of 2020?

And if he could see the empty commuter trains of the post Covid WFH generation????
You are absolutely right Simon and, in the days of the big four, that is what they endeavoured to do. On nationalisation all of the road transport was lumped into British Road Services and that worked fine whilst it was a part of an integrated nationalised transport network. Privatise the road transport bit (in the 1950’s I think) and suddenly the rail network is at a disadvantage. None of the more recently privatised rail freight companies seem to have gone the extra leg to offer pick up/ drop off collection and delivery services, I guess because they regard it as uneconomic and prefer to focus on bulk material transport (a la Beeching).

Nigel
 

76043

Western Thunderer
Fascinating insight and discussion on the state of rail freight in the UK. Looks like the lorries are here to stay. But what I don't fully understand and would like to know is why cross European lorry traffic makes sense? There's so many lorries on UK motorways from the continent, the distances are longer. Is the lack of freight terminals in large cities and towns the issue at both ends? Or just that it's always going to be cheaper to pay a driver to get in a lorry across Europe?
Tony
 

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
There's so many lorries on UK motorways from the continent, the distances are longer. Is
There always was a lot of cross-channel traffic, but 2 or 3 decades ago about 80% of it ran in UK trucks - see @Eastsidepilot for details. ;)
That all changed with several factors coming together (as usual). The fall of the Soviet bloc opened up Europe to cheaper Eastern EU transport companies, the price of UK fuel rocketed thanks to Government taxes (before taxes & VAT are added, UK fuel was one of the cheapest in Europe, not sure if that's still true), and the UK Government also abolished regulations that EU trucks could only do import/export traffic to & from the UK - now they can do 'internal' work as well, often at cheaper 'backload' rates than domestic hauliers can offer.
So now 80% of that cross-channel traffic is in 'foreign' trucks, plus domestic work.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
And what was that East - West rail link all about then?
To take container traffic off the roads of course!

Oh but hang on - aren't most of those containers unloaded on the west coast ports and railed across the country only to disappear into the Channel Tunnel or be loaded onto another container ship at an east coast port, because it is cheaper to do so than run the container ship a little further down the west coast and up the channel to one of the main European ports?
:rolleyes:

I wonder how many go by road on the same journey?
East West rail link was for one specific target only, keep freight out of London, you can't run an intensive passenger service (GEML) whilst dodging around mobile Freightliner chicanes, all passenger stock runs at 100, Freightliner is 75, they're a massive bottle neck. The rail link was imprived over to Bletchley I believe and most traffic from Felixstowe to the Midlands now goes that way and bypasses London. The NLL is chock a block with commuter stock now and Tilbury and more so Gateway are suffering quite badly with that choke point, they can't run up the GEML as that'll just put traffic back where the Rail link took it away. All in all, it's a massive balls up for freight services.

You'll also note the massive new flyover junction north of Peterborough (Werrington) to divert freightliners off the ECML heading north, where it goes after that I'm not sure, my Freightliner Anorak has not be aired for many a year, but it heads up Toward Spalding and Lincoln way.

Regarding port to port transhipments, very little, if any I suspect.

Trans shipments by rail is stupid expensive and a stupid idea that they worked out decades ago; it was a selling point for the chunnel and frankly impractical. Bear in mind a typical feeder can take 1000 TEU (MV Aurora is 1368 TEU capacity), a typical train 50-70 depending on the wagon type.

As far as I know, at Felixstowe we never had any domestic Port to Port transhipments but we had several feeders for UK ports come and go, mostly east coast. There are only two west coast container ports of note, Bristol and Liverpool, Bristol has a low container throughput, it's mostly cars, reefers and bulk. Liverpool has a size able container section but it's goods predominately come from the America's and are destined for the UK, not Europe.

Felixstowe, Tilbury, Gateway and Southampton predominately handle the rest of the world, any transhipments coming from that sector is usually offloaded in Europe, typically Zeebrugge or Cherborg and sail direct up the Irish Sea to Bristol or Liverpool.

Freightliner had one train a day to Tilbury but they were not transhipments AFAIK, that's just where the distribution depot was as the shipper had stopped sailing to Tilbury and decided to come to Felixstowe; sailing down the Thames is to be avoided as it takes so long and Tilbury is limited to smaller vessels.

I've just checked the Felixstowe WTT for 2013-2016 and today OCEAN and cannot see a single port to port service, I could check the other ports but won't as I'll wager that any traffic will be near zero significance.

If you check shipping arrivals and departures OCEAN you'll see the one coastal transhipment to Teeside, MV Aurora due 13th Sept but that'll all be vessel to vessel transhipments. That's on top of two trains a day 4E93 & 5E59 going to virtually the same place.

Anyway, we're diluting Phils thread so happy to expand or waffle about all this in my old out and about at work (Port of Felixstowe) thread if folks are interested.
 
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Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
There always was a lot of cross-channel traffic, but 2 or 3 decades ago about 80% of it ran in UK trucks - see @Eastsidepilot for details. ;)
Late 80'- early 90's there wasn't enough of us, I was returning to Dover from Italy on a Friday, dropping the trailer up at Blackwall in a secure compound Saturday morning and straight back out Sunday with a pre-loaded trailer to Calais, my boots never touched home ground, even re-fuelled in France. My end of week break always seemed to end up in Europe somewhere !

Savona Docks, Italy. late 80s.jpg


Col.
 

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
Liverpool has a size able container section but it's goods predominately come from the America's and are destined for the UK, not Europe.
I used to be involved in a nightly operation fetching loaded boxes from Liverpool Seaforth & returning empties - the goods were ambient foodstuffs like 'Mexican' Fajita "kits"; the boxes came from Spain!! Hence why I put Mexican in commas - the stuff had not been much closer to Mexico than I have!!
Immingham is another East Coast container terminal, I went there a few times.
I agree though, that I don't think there was any traffic where containers have been 'land shipped' across the UK from one port for onward export by another.
 

SimonT

Western Thunderer
I do know of one trans UK flow that MissT took part in when she needed her head examining for working for Sto......s. Bulkers taking biomass from Liverpool docks to the green power station at Drax. Something like 50+ trips a day. Very Green.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
I do know of one trans UK flow that MissT took part in when she needed her head examining for working for Sto......s. Bulkers taking biomass from Liverpool docks to the green power station at Drax. Something like 50+ trips a day. Very Green.
I think that flow should have been by train and I believe originally was, but, I think was targeted by the eco warriors (I'm all for the environment, but there are ways and means to do it) and stopped several times, so they just changed to going by road.

The flow used to arrive in Scotland somewhere I think, but by train was unreliable, Teesport would have been better but they don't have the infrastructure to unload the vessels....go figure. I believe the source is from Norway or Sweden?
 
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Osgood

Western Thunderer
Looks as if I must stand corrected on the trans-uk flow (I'm sure I read about this a long while ago) - and thanks for all the traffic info Mick.

According to the Drax website (this info dated 2021):

Drax Power Station uses compressed wood pellets sourced from sustainably managed working forests in the US, Canada, Europe and Brazil, and are largely made up of low-grade wood produced as a byproduct of the production and processing of higher value wood products, like lumber and furniture.​
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Looks as if I must stand corrected on the trans-uk flow (I'm sure I read about this a long while ago) - and thanks for all the traffic info Mick.

According to the Drax website (this info dated 2021):

Drax Power Station uses compressed wood pellets sourced from sustainably managed working forests in the US, Canada, Europe and Brazil, and are largely made up of low-grade wood produced as a byproduct of the production and processing of higher value wood products, like lumber and furniture.​
Well, way back I think you may have been right, I dimly recall BR Freightliner trains were unloaded at Parkeston (from Europe I believe) and traveled to Holyhead and thence to Ireland, but that was back in the sixties, delivery times and tonnages were drastically reduced. Nowadays feeder vessels (capacity) are as big as many ocean vessels were back then, so economics of scale have all changed.

I wouldn't say it never happened, there may be specific high value small flows that do it. I think china clay slurry is shipped from Cornwall through the chunnel to Europe but that's not strictly a transhipment. There used to be a sugar flow through Felixstowe (IBC in 30' contaners), it used to go by road to Ipswich to be put on a train there as no container trains left Felixstowe to that destination.

That reminds me, I'm sure we used to get a WineLiner from Portbury (Bristol) but I'm not sure where the origin was, could have been South America and we exported it, only ran once every few weeks. It always ran as a class 4 but coded Q (as and when) and was in the path schedule everyday for when it was needed.

Re Drax Biomass, that makes sense to ship through Liverpool then, I'm sure back in time it came from elsewhere, not really relevant though.
 

DougT

Western Thunderer
It’s a fascinating thread developing here, and highly topical. Network Rail have a regulated target to grow freight KGTM (thousand gross tonne miles) by 7.5% by the end of CP7 - the current 5 year control period ending in 2029. Leaving aside the concept that this is like asking highways agency to increase the number of Lorries and holding them accountable for not doing so…this thread shows the scale of the challenge. The barriers to entry are greater than for road and the costs struggle to be competitive even when modal shift subsidies are used.

The incentive to decarbonise is a strong factor, but even with Network Rail’s modest EC4T costs (which comprise of a bulk purchase discount price passed through to the operator - which no operator has been able to beat through their own procurement - plus a contribution to OLE and traction power asset wear and tear - wouldn’t be right for diesel services to pay for the OLE) the biggest barrier is the cost of new electric or bi-mode locos which are between 2 and 3 times the unit cost to lease of a Class 66. Network capability plays a part but after 15 years of interventions the W10/W12 network is quite extensive now but of course could do with some infill to reduce mileages. This is then exacerbated by the fact that almost all Uk electrification schemes since the WCML have been output specific, I.e. they only provided enough power for the the service being electrified so there actually isn’t very much usable spare capacity for electric freight services anywhere other than on the WCML. Unfortunately UK rail freight is now shackled by a large but low cost fleet of moderately capable diesel locos which are at the limit of their effective haulage capability, this in an environment in which maximising trailing length and weight is the key to maximising revenue and return. All of that on top of the issues well described by Phil regarding the actual customers requirements and funds available.

Growing freight on UK rail will only work with some form of direct, high impact and probably controversial government policy choices such as removing the derogation on high-cube Lorries or (cue much gnashing of teeth and frothing at the mouth) actual road pricing that allows the government to recover the costs of the infrastructure as rail has to.

Although having driven Edinburgh to Grantham last night I was genuinely surprised by the number of Amazon, DHL, Royal Mail etc lorries heading in both directions on the A1. Maybe high value logistics is the market for rail…thank goodness all these new warehousing sheds all over the country are being rail connected. Oh, hang on…
 
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Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
If the rail network is not developed enough to cover the country with hubs at 'all' major towns and Cities then road transport will have to make up for it by increasing load capacity of individual vehicles, i.e. road trains. By doubling the capacity of an artic you will be using only one tractor unit thus halving ? the carbon foot print. I don't believe electric HGV's will work unless they can develop a diesel/ electric with an ecologically friendly fuel. Diesel will be around a lot longer than we think, maybe bio fuels ? and eventually maybe HGV's will be hydrogen . I would like to think that combustion engines will prevail but with a fuel that does not pollute.

Col.
 

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
increasing load capacity of individual vehicles, i.e. road trains. By doubling the capacity of an artic you will be using only one tractor unit thus halving ? the carbon foot print.
Denby trialled that some years ago, it came to nothing it seems. I was trained for the alternative which my Company was part of - longer 15m double-deck trailers. The rear trailer axle was spaced further back than the other two & was steerable.
One problem with multi-trailer Road Trains in the UK is that the complete rig is too long to fit between the gaps in all the temporary roadworks..... :)
 

BrushType4

Western Thunderer
If the rail network is not developed enough to cover the country with hubs at 'all' major towns and Cities then road transport will have to make up for it by increasing load capacity of individual vehicles, i.e. road trains. By doubling the capacity of an artic you will be using only one tractor unit thus halving ? the carbon foot print. I don't believe electric HGV's will work unless they can develop a diesel/ electric with an ecologically friendly fuel. Diesel will be around a lot longer than we think, maybe bio fuels ? and eventually maybe HGV's will be hydrogen . I would like to think that combustion engines will prevail but with a fuel that does not pollute.

Col.
Electric trucks are closer than you think. Very likely, trucks will be autonomous and will close together nose to tail on motorways and will really be road trains. Only needing humans to open and close the trailer doors. Within five years we will see something similar, Ten years and truck driving will be one of those jobs destined to the past.

Once trucks are all wheel electric drive, including the semitrailers then motors will be much smaller. Think electric underground train style. Existing electric trucks can get halfway across the country on a single charge. They will simply recharge at the unloading and loading docks. With no drivers to get moving, there isn’t such a time limit. Just add infrastructure and equipment.

Even the last mile delivery on smaller vehicles will not only be electric but most likely autonomous.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Electric trucks are closer than you think. Very likely, trucks will be autonomous and will close together nose to tail on motorways and will really be road trains. Only needing humans to open and close the trailer doors. Within five years we will see something similar, Ten years and truck driving will be one of those jobs destined to the past.

Once trucks are all wheel electric drive, including the semitrailers then motors will be much smaller. Think electric underground train style. Existing electric trucks can get halfway across the country on a single charge. They will simply recharge at the unloading and loading docks. With no drivers to get moving, there isn’t such a time limit. Just add infrastructure and equipment.

Even the last mile delivery on smaller vehicles will not only be electric but most likely autonomous.
Caught a brief article on TV over the weekend, Scanina have invested millions in modifying their factory to move over to electric trucks.

As you say, the next step is to move away from truck only motors to distributed motors, the battery will probably stay in the truck to maximize payload in the trailer. Distributed motors will enhance vehicle stability and traction, it'll also add more dynamic braking and regenerative braking as well.

Charging will be with the fixed point pantograph system as recently adopted by London busses but already sweeping across Europe for several years now. The system is autonomous and can fast charge at much higher capacity than plug and cable and more safely too.

go-ahead-barnehurt-bus-pantograph-tlf-london-03.jpg
 
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