Protecting Decals... Some Tests

[D869Zest]

Having been largely silent on forums for a few years I thought I would talk about some recent varnish tests that I have been doing.

First the background...

I have had plenty of failures with finishes over decals in the past but the main prompt for doing this now has been the need to find an alternative to Testors Dullcote which is unavailable. Motivation wise I should also add a nod here to the perepetrators of the 'Central Alonso' layout. A chat about decals and finishing at Uckfield 2 weeks ago finally prompted me to get off my posterior and order some candidate products for testing. Like me, they run tank wagons decorated with custom decals done on an Alps printer by Precision Decals. These are very fine decals but super fragile so really need protection.

Dullcote has broadly speaking had excellent results for me. It is extremely flat and I have not had any durability issues. The biggest downside was that it can be difficult to control the spray volume - on one occasion I put way too much on and had it run and pool. It is also based on nasty solvents but I do all spraying outdoors so that is less of an issue.

Humbrol matt enamel varnish was my mainstay for many years with more traditional waterslides but it often proved far from flat when brushed. I airbrushed it once and the result looked like a heavy frost so that won't do. I recently tried brushing it over Alps decals and one small number transfer quickly dislodged and then broke up.

I have tried Tamiya X and XF acrylic varnishes. These go on well from my airbrush but I have had reactions with the residues from Microscale decal fluids resulting in milky looking areas so that is not good. I also used it on a loco once and tried spray on, clean off enamel weathering afterwards as per the Wild Swan book and was dismayed to see some of the decals disintegrate.

The usual recommendation is Johnson's Klear. I actually have a pack of the original stuff in a kitchen cupboard. Apparently you could also use it on floors - who knew? I have never yet tried it on a model... mainly because I am unsure how to clean brushes and airbrushes after using it.

A final honourable mention goes to AK Ultra Matte. I have tried brushing this several times but for me it ends up too uneven. I recently airbrushed one of my too shiny older vans. The finish looks nice and flat but I am unsure how well it will stand up to handling. Time will tell.

I have spent ages reading forum posts on this topic but usually found as many opinions in favour of each product as against so I concluded that I was just going to have to bite the bullet and devote some time to testing.

The tests of a shortlist of untried (by me) products were completed yesterday but I think that I have said enough for one post so more will follow another day.

 

[Arun Sharma]

I use bespoke white Precision Labels decals a lot. I've found that any organic solvent [specifically aromatic hydrocarbon based] will destroy these ALPS printed decals. This includes any Precision-Phoenix, or Humbrol enamel varnish. The only safe coating that I've tried has been Railmatch water-based acrylic satin or matt varnish.

 

[D869Zest]

any organic solvent [specifically aromatic hydrocarbon based] will destroy these ALPS printed decals

That seems very probable. There is one other factor when I have ruined decals - the action of a paint brush. Dullcote spray uses a very 'hot' solvent and most likely causes havoc on a molecular level to the decal ink and carrier but if nothing moves and the whole thing dries again then it all seems to work out ok. That has been my experience anyway.

 

[Jim smith-wright]

Army Painter mass varnish good for both finished models and sealing transfers on the sheet. Its my go to these days

 

[paulc]

Having been largely silent on forums for a few years I thought I would talk about some recent varnish tests that I have been doing.

First the background...

I have had plenty of failures with finishes over decals in the past but the main prompt for doing this now has been the need to find an alternative to Testors Dullcote which is unavailable. Motivation wise I should also add a nod here to the perepetrators of the 'Central Alonso' layout. A chat about decals and finishing at Uckfield 2 weeks ago finally prompted me to get off my posterior and order some candidate products for testing. Like me, they run tank wagons decorated with custom decals done on an Alps printer by Precision Decals. These are very fine decals but super fragile so really need protection.

Dullcote has broadly speaking had excellent results for me. It is extremely flat and I have not had any durability issues. The biggest downside was that it can be difficult to control the spray volume - on one occasion I put way too much on and had it run and pool. It is also based on nasty solvents but I do all spraying outdoors so that is less of an issue.

Humbrol matt enamel varnish was my mainstay for many years with more traditional waterslides but it often proved far from flat when brushed. I airbrushed it once and the result looked like a heavy frost so that won't do. I recently tried brushing it over Alps decals and one small number transfer quickly dislodged and then broke up.

I have tried Tamiya X and XF acrylic varnishes. These go on well from my airbrush but I have had reactions with the residues from Microscale decal fluids resulting in milky looking areas so that is not good. I also used it on a loco once and tried spray on, clean off enamel weathering afterwards as per the Wild Swan book and was dismayed to see some of the decals disintegrate.

The usual recommendation is Johnson's Klear. I actually have a pack of the original stuff in a kitchen cupboard. Apparently you could also use it on floors - who knew? I have never yet tried it on a model... mainly because I am unsure how to clean brushes and airbrushes after using it.

A final honourable mention goes to AK Ultra Matte. I have tried brushing this several times but for me it ends up too uneven. I recently airbrushed one of my too shiny older vans. The finish looks nice and flat but I am unsure how well it will stand up to handling. Time will tell.

I have spent ages reading forum posts on this topic but usually found as many opinions in favour of each product as against so I concluded that I was just going to have to bite the bullet and devote some time to testing.

The tests of a shortlist of untried (by me) products were completed yesterday but I think that I have said enough for one post so more will follow another day.

Hi ??????? I use this and have had no issues , just use light coats as you would with Testors .

 

[D869Zest]

This didn't start out as a test - after reading some posts online a rattle can of matt lacquer was purchased from my local Halfords and applied to a slope sided mineral which had just received decals, starting with a very tentative thin coat. The result didn't ruin anything but was not as flat as I had hoped. Rather than using other wagons with more complex liveries as guinea pigs I dug out three old Peco wagon bodies from my odds and ends box to test things out on.

I had a spare set of private owner lettering from one of the recently lettered models so the wagons were given a coat of Humbrol gloss and the private owner letters shared out across six wagon sides with a liberal application of Decal Set followed by Microsol to persuade them into the planking. I left the gloss off the central door area to help gauge how well the products could restore a flat finish. From there onwards their paths diverged to experiment with different treatments and different ways to do weathering.

My shortlist of products for testing was as follows...
Halfords matt lacquer rattle can
Tamiya TS80 rattle can
Tamiya LP23 flat lacquer and Tamiya lacquer thinner. I also bought semi flat while I was making an order online but it wasn't part of the test.

Obviously from the suggestions made on this thread (for which, thank you) there are far more products out there. I have heard of the brands but not all of the products.

So what am I looking for?

1. Protect Alps decals from the sort of handling that locos and rolling stock endure at an exhibition.
2. Kill the gloss paint or varnish recommended for use below decals
3. Compatible with Microscale decal fluids
4. Suitable for weathering over with Humbrol enamels, and partial crud removal with enamel thinner a few hours later
5. Flat and semi flat options for grotty wagons and less grotty locos and coaches
6. Brush, spray and rattle can options ideally

The trickiest questions relate to ex private owner wooden minerals where I need to make the lettering look worn and also represent replaced planks either by scraping part of the letter off or by overpainting with wood coloured enamels, so a few ideas for doing that were included in the various treatments.

 

[TheSnapper]

This didn't start out as a test - after reading some posts online a rattle can of matt lacquer was purchased from my local Halfords and applied to a slope sided mineral which had just received decals, starting with a very tentative thin coat. The result didn't ruin anything but was not as flat as I had hoped. Rather than using other wagons with more complex liveries as guinea pigs I dug out three old Peco wagon bodies from my odds and ends box to test things out on.

I had a spare set of private owner lettering from one of the recently lettered models so the wagons were given a coat of Humbrol gloss and the private owner letters shared out across six wagon sides with a liberal application of Decal Set followed by Microsol to persuade them into the planking. I left the gloss off the central door area to help gauge how well the products could restore a flat finish. From there onwards their paths diverged to experiment with different treatments and different ways to do weathering.

My shortlist of products for testing was as follows...
Halfords matt lacquer rattle can
Tamiya TS80 rattle can
Tamiya LP23 flat lacquer and Tamiya lacquer thinner. I also bought semi flat while I was making an order online but it wasn't part of the test.

Obviously from the suggestions made on this thread (for which, thank you) there are far more products out there. I have heard of the brands but not all of the products.

So what am I looking for?

1. Protect Alps decals from the sort of handling that locos and rolling stock endure at an exhibition.
2. Kill the gloss paint or varnish recommended for use below decals
3. Compatible with Microscale decal fluids
4. Suitable for weathering over with Humbrol enamels, and partial crud removal with enamel thinner a few hours later
5. Flat and semi flat options for grotty wagons and less grotty locos and coaches
6. Brush, spray and rattle can options ideally

The trickiest questions relate to ex private owner wooden minerals where I need to make the lettering look worn and also represent replaced planks either by scraping part of the letter off or by overpainting with wood coloured enamels, so a few ideas for doing that were included in the various treatments.

 

[TheSnapper]

I use Alclad Klear Kote using an airbrush.
It comes in various grades of finish:
-
ALC-311 KLEAR KOTE LIGHT SHEEN
ALC-312 KLEAR KOTE SEMI-MATTE
ALC-313 KLEAR KOTE MATTE
ALC-314 KLEAR KOTE FLAT
ALC-600 AQUA GLOSS

Spray lightly at low pressure, as you would with Testors Dullcote.

Cheers

Tim

 

[D869Zest]

I use Alclad Klear Kote

I have used Alclad metallics in the past and liked the results. I had not thought of checking for clear versions but checking today it seems like a bit of a story. UK sites show Alclad branded stuff as unavailable. The forum trail heads to a now defunct site belonging to a company in Norfolk and then moves on to Mig... who list very similar sounding clear products... but they have marked the flat version as unavailable (sounds like a permanent thing).

Darn.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The forum trail heads to a now defunct site belonging to a company in Norfolk and then moves on to Mig... who list very similar sounding clear products... but they have marked the flat version as unavailable (sounds like a permanent thing).

Alclad is still available (including the Klear-Kotes) through Ammo by MiG under their A-Stand branding.

A.MIG 2500 Klear kote Gloss
A.MIG 2501 Klear kote Satin
A.MIG 2502 Klear kote Flat

There's some more information and explanation in the Britmodeller forum here (7th post down) Alclad II aqua gloss supply issues?

 

[KrustySimplex]

My recent experience with varnishes and Alps decals was weathering a locomotive built by a friend. He had painted it with lacquer (phone really, really wants to say ‘lawyer’), applied the decals and applied a protective overcoat of Dulcote. This all went fine and the loco sat nicely maturing for a couple of months. But as soon as I started attacking it with oils and artists’ odourless thinner, the thinner went straight through the varnish as though it wasn’t there and broke up the decal. “Oh bother” I said, several times. Resisted the temptation to throw things though.
Talking about it with another friend, he reckoned that the only successful protection he’d found was clear lacquer (phone still convinced I want to say lawyer). This doesn’t really appeal to me as I prefer a matte finish. I’d like an acrylic varnish that really did protect against solvents, though.

 

[TheSnapper]

As an alternative, I’ve also used original oil- based Ronseal thinned via an airbrush in various combinations of Matt, Satin & Gloss. Good hard finish, but downside is it needs a lengthy dust-free drying time.
Question is, is it still available?

 

[robertm]

As an alternative, I’ve also used original oil- based Ronseal thinned via an airbrush in various combinations of Matt, Satin & Gloss. Good hard finish, but downside is it needs a lengthy dust-free drying time.
Question is, is it still available?

Can I just ask what thinner you used?

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

I too use Ronseal original thinned with white spirit and a dash of Humbrol satin black. With Alps decals I give two very thin coats onto a warmed model and left in my heated box to cure.

Ronseal original satin , gloss & matt is still available but not often found in the diy sheds. I got my last tin in a small independent hardware shop.

 

[Kylestrome]

I take it, you have completely ruled out the use of Micro-set, as a factor in making your decals fragile?

David

 

[Stephen Freeman]

I use Plastikote clear lacquer for DIY waterslide, works well but I think it's probably not so for ALPs etc

 

[Stephen Freeman]

As an alternative, I’ve also used original oil- based Ronseal thinned via an airbrush in various combinations of Matt, Satin & Gloss. Good hard finish, but downside is it needs a lengthy dust-free drying time.
Question is, is it still available?

Don't know if original Ronseal is still available, it's not exactly eco-friendly, I bought a tin of satin over 12 years ago, still not had occasion to use it but it is varnish of choice.

 

[robertm]

I emailed Ronseal a while ago asking for their recommendation for thinning original oil based satin outdoor varnish. They insisted it was water based but I persisted. They eventually conceded it was oil based but said that it should not be thinned as it’s designed for brushing. They ended saying the product was discontinued and so they could offer no support. It’s probably still available in the smaller retailers shops.
Bob

 

[D869Zest]

I take it, you have completely ruled out the use of Micro-set, as a factor in making your decals fragile?

No but I would not expect good results without some sort of decal fluid(s). Microsol explicitly says it will soften them (but you asked about micro set)

If micro set was behind the disintegration then I think it would need to be causing it after drying otherwise the decal would show harm when being applied. Not impossible but solvents from weathering or attempts to brush apply varnish seem a better fit for what I see.

 

[Stephen Freeman]

I emailed Ronseal a while ago asking for their recommendation for thinning original oil based satin outdoor varnish. They insisted it was water based but I persisted. They eventually conceded it was oil based but said that it should not be thinned as it’s designed for brushing. They ended saying the product was discontinued and so they could offer no support. It’s probably still available in the smaller retailers shops.
Bob

I only used for locos and rolling stock, not built any of those for ages, far too busy with signals