Restriction on Layout Length

Discussion in 'Discussion' started by cbrailways, 11 August 2017.

  1. cbrailways

    cbrailways Western Thunderer

    First post since this topic was set up, so here goes.

    On another forum it has been published by the competition runners that it has been decided that the maximum 'scenic' length is restricted to 2m. That puts an end to my entry then as its 2.42m. I'm a bit anoyed that this wasn't stated at the begining :confused:

    I note that that restriction hasn't been posted on this forum yet.
  2. geoff_nicholls

    geoff_nicholls Western Thunderer

    I don't think there is a hard and fast rule, though a 3 metre scenic section would, I believe, be rejected. How much extra is your fiddle yard? My layout is 2.1m scenic plus 1.8m fiddle yard and it's been accepted. That appears to be longer than your overall layout length, if I've understood your previous posts.
  3. geoff_nicholls

    geoff_nicholls Western Thunderer

    I hadn't seen that post. My layout is 125mm too long, and can't be made shorter.
  4. Simon

    Simon Flying Squad

    I have added the MRJ clarification and Iain's latest thoughts on size to the thread.

    To be fair chaps, both your layouts were underway before the cameo competition rocked up and you are both ( I hope) building them for your own enjoyment and reasons, and so being in or out of a competition whilst being a bit of a disapointment (and I do accept this is a change from what's been said before) is surely of little consequence?

    isambardme, Peter Cross and Pencarrow like this.
  5. Scale7JB

    Scale7JB Western Thunderer

    How wide is the layout?

    You could always display it at 90 degrees, and then it'll be well within the 2M constraint.. ;):D

  6. Simon

    Simon Flying Squad

    If you really feel the need to return the book on the above basis then I will happily accept it back.

    I'd like to think the book has far more value than just a token to gain entry to a competition though.

    I accept that this represents a change as I have already acknowledged, but if you actually sit down and read the Cameo book I truly don't think you would leap off and plan the layout that you have entered.

    Either way, I really don't wish there to be any enmity or bad feeling arising from all this and as I said I will take the book back with good grace if that is what you would like to do.

    Best Wishes

    Simon Castens
  7. Neil

    Neil Western Thunderer

    Is there any restriction on layout depth? Could a 'cameo' layout be a couple of feet wide but ten feet deep? Could viewing then be arranged from the side rather than the front, as the view will be better that way?
  8. Stumpytrain

    Stumpytrain Active Member

    I feel your pain Chris! I've been holding off on submitting my entry for fear of embarrassing myself with yet another unbuilt project but now I'm going to have to think again as the scenic section was to be 9' long in 7mm scale. 'Mid-Size' Cameo 'Trerice' is 56.5 inches long in 4mm scale, or 98.9 inches (8.23 feet) in 7mm, 'Super-Cameo' Longwood Edge is 78 inches in 4mm scale, 136.5 inches in 7mm so I thought I was safe with my 108 inch length! :eek:

    6.5 feet is going to require a little more thought! :(
    cbrailways likes this.
  9. daifly

    daifly Western Thunderer

    And therein lies the 'flaw' in the concept. You could build a complete layout in 2mm scale in a 2m length! It is a totally different concept in the largest scales; in G3 that's only about 7 wagons long!
  10. Obblygobbly

    Obblygobbly Active Member

    The idea I am getting from comments and re-reading parts of the book is that the scenic part of the layout is visualised as one single board, with the fiddle yard bits either part of the same board, or separate structure(s) bolted on the end(s). In my case, a one-piece scenic section would have to be considerably smaller than 2 metres long, as there is generally no one else able to help me lift it into and out of a car. I would be restricted to just over 1 metre max. Try getting a decent layout into that length - even in 2mm scale! Mind you, the 2mm Finescale Association's Diamond Jubilee Layout Competition does require a scenic section no more than 600mm long.
  11. Simon

    Simon Flying Squad

    In between causing cameo mayhem and packing books, I today managed to spray (both primer and topcoat) my Spurn Head Hudswell railcar.


    This is in 1/32 scale (Gauge One) and I am having cameo ideas around a slightly whimsical line which uses this as its passenger transport, but as others are observing it really is very challenging to fit much in such a limited space in the larger scales.

    But going back the "flaw"as Dave puts it, I think that different scales offer different things within the cameo concept as promoted by this competition. Larger scales give great "in your face potential" from close up whereas in 2mm scale you can do far away scenes like William Smith's wharf by Jerry Clifford.

    I'm (obviously) not entering the competition as such, but I haven't yet given up on doing something in G1, but I won't get anything like a whole layout or scene into the required space.

    Going back to the size thing, it seems to me that part of the appeal of the cameo concept is its compact nature, I just think we have to have scenes/ideas/concepts that will "fit" and working this out without "going large" strikes me as a large part of the fun of it.

    Anyway, I'm demonstrating at Railwells so feel free to come along and beat me about the head with wet kippers for all the trouble I've caused.

    Oh and by the way, Iain is there too with "Trerice" so there are multiple opportunities for Cameo conflabbery.

  12. geoff_nicholls

    geoff_nicholls Western Thunderer

    Surely that's part of the fun, and of the charm of the result. You can see my efforts in the Aldeburgh Wharf thread. My layout will accommodate a GER 0-6-0T (E22/J65) and three four wheelers which would be correct for the Eye branch. Unfortunately I've limited the goods accommodation by including a wagon turntable, but there is sufficient track to run a timetable for exhibitions. There will be a J15 eventually. My layout is 5 inches too long, purely by chance, those were the sizes of boards available at the time. If I was prepared to take a saw to it, it could be within the limit.
    It would be equally easy for a GWR fan, using a steam railmotor or flying banana (both from GRS) for the passenger service, plus a pannier (ditto).
    And this is in gauge 3.
    Peter Cross and jamiepage like this.
  13. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    I agree. When does a cameo become a diorama and vice versa?

    This, in my view, is becoming interesting and I, for one, am now pleased I did not enter the competition as any 'cameo' I would have built in O scale would have had its visual component exceeding 2m in length.

    The other interesting point is how the word 'cameo' has appeared to have changed it's use or used incorrectly in modern times. According to the current OED cameo is defined as thus:
    1. A piece of jewellery, typically oval in shape, consisting of a portrait in profile carved in relief on a background of a different colour.

    2. Short descriptive literary sketch which neatly encapsulates someone or something.

    3. A small character part in a play or film, played by a distinguished actor.

    Taking 3 above as the literal theatrical interpretation for the competition then each 'cameo' in theory should be a scale theatre stage width in length. Therefore following this to it's logical conclusion, a 2mm 'cameo' would be smaller than a G3 'cameo' and as such everything would be proportional.

    2 above could also be considered but is a model a literary sketch? Again a question of interpretation.

    In my view a diorama would more accurately describe the competition since the OED defines diorama as:
    1. A model representing a scene with three-dimensional figures, either in miniature or as a large-scale museum exhibit.

    In it's historical sense.
    2. A scenic painting, viewed through a peephole, in which changes in colour and direction of illumination simulate changes in the weather, time of day, etc.

    And a more modern definition.
    3. A miniature film set used for special effects or animation.

    Anyway, enough of the pedantry.

    Without taking anything away from the organisers of this inspirational idea (and possibly the first time it has been advertised nationally) to demonstrate you do not have to have a large area in order to create a 'slice' of railway history in model form, I have noted throughout the previous postings it has become clear with the benefit of hindsight perhaps the dimensions of the 'cameo' could have been defined by the scale modelled e.g. 2mm scale up to 1m length; HO/4mm scale up to 2m length; O scale up to 4m length.

    These are my thoughts alone and without detracting from any ongoing building taking place I look forward to seeing the competition entry and 'disqualified' 'cameos' develop as I am always interested in seeing (and learning from) how other modellers develop, build and scenic small layouts no matter what the scale.
  14. Stumpytrain

    Stumpytrain Active Member

    I had been following the banal thread on RMWeb with people expecting every single term and condition extrapolated. I naively assumed I was in sync with Iain and Simon, in that there didn't need to be strict rules; you just felt what a Cameo was. In the same way that I find it impossible to describe what "Northern Soul" record is, you just hear a song and know it's "Northern" and you can't explain how you know that.

    There's no doubt that a key component of a Cameo is that it's modest in size, but I always imaged that it was what was considered modest relative to the scale being modelled in. If had been planning a 2mm Finescale project, I can't imagine I'd have been pushing for the full 6'6" that's permitted. In fact, I think you'd be hard pushed to build what looks like a Cameo Layout that long, unless perhaps it was split into two scenes. The 4'6" (I think it was) of Highbury Colliery was perfect. Indeed, harking back to what I said earlier about feeling Cameo, I personally wouldn't class Lakebank (featured in the book) as one. It's nicely presented, but it's too long and lacks the "rule of thirds" depth of other examples.

    On the way home from work I pondered if I could abandon my prototype ambitions and freelance something with the track plan of one of the smallest 2mm Finescale layouts - Chapel Wharf. Sadly even that scales up to a scenic section of something like 7'7", though I'll admit with the "scale and presence" of 7mm you might get away with shorter sidings than a model that famously fits in a suitcase. 6'6" in 7mm Scale really is Paul Lunn "Micro Layout" territory.

    Ultimately you guys are bosses and as Cameo Layouts are essentially Iain's baby, and certainly book, what you say goes. I suppose that I'm a little disheartened that after investing a fair bit of time and money recently to get something prepared to submit before the deadline, that seemingly bowing to RMWeb pressure for terms and conditions, a hurdle has been raised (shades of Max Zorin in A View to a Kill) at the 11th hour.

    Cameo layouts should have been judged on their merit and feel, rather than the judges getting a tape measure out. The wind has been taken out of my sail. I'm trying to console myself with the knowledge that I probably wouldn't have finished in time, but I was looking forward to the deadline (hopefully) pushing me along...


    Attached Files:

    Last edited: 12 August 2017
    cbrailways, Neil and SimonT like this.
  15. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    Seen from a distance, I think it is unfortunate that something that was inclusive and inspiring people to get modelling has become more restricted and has excluded people who's entries have previously been accepted.

    Can we have a Claytons Cameo competition for the larger scale entries that don't quite follow all the rules? It could be on WT and voted for by WT members, or organise a hall somewhere to show them. I for one want to see Stumpytrain build his layout and cbrailways model is looking interesting.

    [check Wikipedia for the Australian vernacular meaning of claytons]
  16. geoff_nicholls

    geoff_nicholls Western Thunderer

    I completely disagree with Daifly on this. In my opinion that is the whole point of the concept. You have a defined space. How you chose to fill that space is up to you, whether 2mm or gauge 3. In 2mm there may be rolling hills and a station with an overall roof, in gauge 3 it might be part of that roof, a water tower and a tree. In either case the point is for the viewer to recognise it immediately as Ashburton, and for his or her attention to be held by the activities of the trains, at least for a few minutes, hopefully much longer.
    cbrailways and jamiepage like this.
  17. Obblygobbly

    Obblygobbly Active Member

    Ok I see your point, but I have problems understanding how you would judge such entries relative to each other in a competition. To my mind it clearly is more challenging to fit a gauge 3 model in the space and this is likely to lead to far more imaginative and radically different solutions than a 2mm scale model in the same space.
    cbrailways and Stumpytrain like this.
  18. daifly

    daifly Western Thunderer

    All valid arguments! For me the problem with small layouts in large scales is that they sit at the diorama end of the spectrum. Their lack of operating potential is evident to both operator and viewer. Having admired the exquisite modelling there is no reason to linger. If it doesn't hold the enthusiasm of the builder/operator and the attention of the viewer then it fails - as so many diorama/cameos appear to do.
    Sorry if this sounds a bit negative but as has been remarked upon above, in this competition the playing field is far from level - quite apart from the rules 'changing' during the game!
    If it gets more people constructing more layouts that should be a positive for the hobby.
    Stumpytrain and Obblygobbly like this.
  19. Obblygobbly

    Obblygobbly Active Member

    Just to emphasise the difference scale makes, you could just about get a large main line terminus within the rules in 2mm scale. For example, a scale model of Liverpool Central in 2mm scale - the distance would be almost exactly right from buffer stops to the tunnel mouth. The rules would also allow a generous fiddle yard. Should that be considered a cameo? On size alone, it is.
    Stumpytrain likes this.
  20. jonte

    jonte Western Thunderer

    'Liverpool Central'.....mmmm, nice.