7mm Rob P's Coaching Stock Workbench - Kirk Twin Set Diag 105/125
- Thread starter Rob Pulham
- Start date
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Your wish is my command Iain
A recent Ebay buy was a Bill Bedford kit for a NBR/LNER D71 BG, I say "kit" but it's more sides ends and underframe. One evening I needed a bit of a distraction from rolling the tumblehome for the second Kemilway so I thuoght I would see how well the BB kit went together.
The sides are in two halves that are lap jointed a bit like Comet 4mm LNER coach sides if anyone has ever made them. I have to say that they go together very positively and were a joy to solder up. The sides themselves are nicely etched but the one thing that all the parts suffer from is that where there are holes for slots/tabs or door handles etch they are all etched too big.
In order to support the solebars I made up some brackets shaped like this
There are some etched battery boxes included but the details was a bit 2D so I made up some hinge detail from scrap etch and 0.5mm wire.
Next up I created the tumblehome. back up the thread I offered to detail how I do this so I took the opportunity to take step by step photos while doing it.
First stick a strip of 2" masking tape to just below the windows.
Place your piece of rod on the remaining strip of masking tape and roll it around until it's stuck to the rod and up against the bottom of your side.
Then continue to roll gently but firmly and the tape pulls the side into a curve.
And there you have it.
A recent Ebay buy was a Bill Bedford kit for a NBR/LNER D71 BG, I say "kit" but it's more sides ends and underframe. One evening I needed a bit of a distraction from rolling the tumblehome for the second Kemilway so I thuoght I would see how well the BB kit went together.
The sides are in two halves that are lap jointed a bit like Comet 4mm LNER coach sides if anyone has ever made them. I have to say that they go together very positively and were a joy to solder up. The sides themselves are nicely etched but the one thing that all the parts suffer from is that where there are holes for slots/tabs or door handles etch they are all etched too big.
In order to support the solebars I made up some brackets shaped like this
There are some etched battery boxes included but the details was a bit 2D so I made up some hinge detail from scrap etch and 0.5mm wire.
Next up I created the tumblehome. back up the thread I offered to detail how I do this so I took the opportunity to take step by step photos while doing it.
First stick a strip of 2" masking tape to just below the windows.
Place your piece of rod on the remaining strip of masking tape and roll it around until it's stuck to the rod and up against the bottom of your side.
Then continue to roll gently but firmly and the tape pulls the side into a curve.
And there you have it.
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
I am still sidelined by the NBR BG. 
One of the three battery boxes provided is actually split into two smaller boxes and as such does have any ends supplied. I made some from scrap etch to fill the gap basing them on the out ends which are provided.
next up is a shot of the guard's ducket which is included but which needs the ends to be rolled very tightly in order to get it to fit nicely - the ends have half etched lines on the back to assist with this.
And the rear view - so far I haven't soldered it, it's held by the tabs.
And finally the door handle and hinge detail. I had some nice cast T handles in stock but the longer guards lever handles I made from 0.8mm wire annealed and flattened in a pair of smooth jawed pliers. because as I mentioned earlier all the etched holes are a bit on the big side I had to make and escutcheon plate to cover the hole and for the hinges I used folded scrap etc pinched together in the pliers to fill the hole and give a nice hinge representation.
One of the three battery boxes provided is actually split into two smaller boxes and as such does have any ends supplied. I made some from scrap etch to fill the gap basing them on the out ends which are provided.
next up is a shot of the guard's ducket which is included but which needs the ends to be rolled very tightly in order to get it to fit nicely - the ends have half etched lines on the back to assist with this.
And the rear view - so far I haven't soldered it, it's held by the tabs.
And finally the door handle and hinge detail. I had some nice cast T handles in stock but the longer guards lever handles I made from 0.8mm wire annealed and flattened in a pair of smooth jawed pliers. because as I mentioned earlier all the etched holes are a bit on the big side I had to make and escutcheon plate to cover the hole and for the hinges I used folded scrap etc pinched together in the pliers to fill the hole and give a nice hinge representation.
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
The hinges look real neat and tidy - difficult to get a round end from an etch piece. How about putting a small groove in the strip, before bending, and then fold the piece around some 0.3mm wire to represent the hinge pin?
Carry on like this and I might offer up a Mallard Models K18 for your attention .
regards, Graham
Carry on like this and I might offer up a Mallard Models K18 for your attention
.regards, Graham
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
The hinges look real neat and tidy - difficult to get a round end from an etch piece. How about putting a small groove in the strip, before bending, and then fold the piece around some 0.3mm wire to represent the hinge pin?
Carry on like this and I might offer up a Mallard Models K18 for your attention
regards, Graham
That's an excellent idea Graham, I shall keep it for the Trevor Charlton based NER coach that's in the pile.
I was going to say forgive my heresy but I am mostly ignorant of things of western origin so what's a K18 but I remembered that I have actually built a K15 (I think) in the dim and distant past so I know that it's a brake coach
but that's all I know........Let me sort the cattle wagons first though
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
As you surmised, GWR carriage diagrams in the K series are for bogie brake vans. Here is a link to a JLTRT photo of a K22...
http://www.justliketherealthing.co.uk/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=31
which is the steel flush sided version of the K18. The K18 is the traditional wood sheeting with panelling / bolections and is very similar to the style of your current build.
regards, Graham
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
It sounds like a nice kit, I have always heard good things about the Blacksmith kits.
iak63
Western Thunderer
Already have some Vernon.
Full brakes and a non corridor lav compo
The MJT box is quite large as one might guess....
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
The problem solving juices were flowing nicely last night!
I have sorted a way to fasten on the upper step boards by folding strips of scrap etch around the half etched tabs (bearing in mind the size of the etched holes these would have been much better if they were full thickness not half etched - I cannot fathom the thinking behind having something that essentially provides support, half etched) and leaving a longer bit underneath as extra support (on all except the three centre ones where the supports for the lower step boards will go).
Hopefully the photos below will illustrate this better than I can describe it.
At the moment the one side that I fitted last night is just a press fit and to be honest I could probably get away without soldering it, it's that good a fit.
Above are the coach ends as supplied and I was thinking about scratch building some gangway doors when I had a bit of a light bulb moment. In some of the Kemilway kits there are two or three outer ends representing various changes over the life of the vehicle. So I cut a couple of these down to fit.
I plan to get some scissor gangways from CPL (they are GWR but hopefully can adapt them into something that looks NBRish...) so I wont solder these in until I know what I don't need to do to fit them with the support pieces that are currently inside the openings.
Readers of the whole thread will recall that on the Kemilway's there are some really nice cast door knobs. I didn't have any spare and although I am sure that Peter Dawson would sell me some if I asked, I decided to see if I could make some. I got a couple of short handrail knobs fitted a piece of brass wire through to fill the hole and then soldered it in. I then filed it until it was round again and then filed the top flat and it looks pretty good, bearing in mind how small they actually are!
I have sorted a way to fasten on the upper step boards by folding strips of scrap etch around the half etched tabs (bearing in mind the size of the etched holes these would have been much better if they were full thickness not half etched - I cannot fathom the thinking behind having something that essentially provides support, half etched) and leaving a longer bit underneath as extra support (on all except the three centre ones where the supports for the lower step boards will go).
Hopefully the photos below will illustrate this better than I can describe it.
At the moment the one side that I fitted last night is just a press fit and to be honest I could probably get away without soldering it, it's that good a fit.
Above are the coach ends as supplied and I was thinking about scratch building some gangway doors when I had a bit of a light bulb moment. In some of the Kemilway kits there are two or three outer ends representing various changes over the life of the vehicle. So I cut a couple of these down to fit.
I plan to get some scissor gangways from CPL (they are GWR but hopefully can adapt them into something that looks NBRish...) so I wont solder these in until I know what I don't need to do to fit them with the support pieces that are currently inside the openings.
Readers of the whole thread will recall that on the Kemilway's there are some really nice cast door knobs. I didn't have any spare and although I am sure that Peter Dawson would sell me some if I asked, I decided to see if I could make some. I got a couple of short handrail knobs fitted a piece of brass wire through to fill the hole and then soldered it in. I then filed it until it was round again and then filed the top flat and it looks pretty good, bearing in mind how small they actually are!
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Moving slowly forward with this one although I am almost at the point where I can't go any further until I get some more detailed photos which I have hopefully on the way.
Both upper step boards are now on and soldered in place and the battery boxes are all in place.
I also soldered some pieces of scrap etch into the holes left by the V hangers/battery box ends etc - a pet hate of mine is holes in the floor especially when the vehicle has windows....
The queen posts as provided are half etched at the ends of the posts and are a little two dimensional - albeit they would be very easy to solder a length of rod to for the truss rods. I decided to do it the hard way. The reason for this is that the Kemilway truss rods are flat etches and I want something a bit more 3D so I thought that I would experiment on options on this one.
First I threaded some short lengths of 0.9mm rod 14ba and then soldered them to the back of the queen post etches. I then got some Markits 4mm scale crank pin washers and filed a V slot in opposite sides and file a corresponding V on the ends of some 1mm rod. I had to make a template on some scrap paper to get the lengths right. The first one needed a bit of tweaking but the second was right first go.
You will also notice that I had to beef up the tabs on the queen post etch to fill the holes in the floorpan.......
Both upper step boards are now on and soldered in place and the battery boxes are all in place.
I also soldered some pieces of scrap etch into the holes left by the V hangers/battery box ends etc - a pet hate of mine is holes in the floor especially when the vehicle has windows....
The queen posts as provided are half etched at the ends of the posts and are a little two dimensional - albeit they would be very easy to solder a length of rod to for the truss rods. I decided to do it the hard way. The reason for this is that the Kemilway truss rods are flat etches and I want something a bit more 3D so I thought that I would experiment on options on this one.
First I threaded some short lengths of 0.9mm rod 14ba and then soldered them to the back of the queen post etches. I then got some Markits 4mm scale crank pin washers and filed a V slot in opposite sides and file a corresponding V on the ends of some 1mm rod. I had to make a template on some scrap paper to get the lengths right. The first one needed a bit of tweaking but the second was right first go.
You will also notice that I had to beef up the tabs on the queen post etch to fill the holes in the floorpan.......
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
It could be Tony to be honest I only need to worry for a couple of coaches because for the Kemilways I can cut out the bit of the etch that fits over the queen post and file flats on the bottom of the rod to make life easier.
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Back at the beginning of this thread there was a bit of banter around scale toilets for the toilet compartments on the guild forum. While talking to Peter Dawson I mentioned them, while they are not included in the kits he said that he had some that he could sent me and good to his word he did.
They are not for the faint hearted to assemble (it took me two modelling sessions to get the toilet lid to stay in place) and I had to scratch build the bowl for the sink and find a tap in the spares box but good for a laugh.
They are not for the faint hearted to assemble (it took me two modelling sessions to get the toilet lid to stay in place) and I had to scratch build the bowl for the sink and find a tap in the spares box but good for a laugh.
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
It seems that I have a bit of modification to do on the NBR coach
Bill Bedford has just posted this in reply to my last posting on the LNER forum.
"You have the battery boxes in the wrong places, The double one fits with the gap behind the queen post, since there is a bar that goes across the underframe between the queen posts.
The truss rods are not nutted to the queen posts -- only Doncaster needed nuts to hold the rods. The NBR used a continuous truss rod that was held by a half cylinder at the end of the queen post. The half etched end of the queen post should be formed to wrap around the truss rode to represent this.
The half etch patches on the footboards are locations for the lower footboard supports."
Nothing insurmountable but annoying all the same but I am really struggling to get any sort of detailed information on these.
Bill Bedford has just posted this in reply to my last posting on the LNER forum.
"You have the battery boxes in the wrong places, The double one fits with the gap behind the queen post, since there is a bar that goes across the underframe between the queen posts.
The truss rods are not nutted to the queen posts -- only Doncaster needed nuts to hold the rods. The NBR used a continuous truss rod that was held by a half cylinder at the end of the queen post. The half etched end of the queen post should be formed to wrap around the truss rode to represent this.
The half etch patches on the footboards are locations for the lower footboard supports."
Nothing insurmountable but annoying all the same but I am really struggling to get any sort of detailed information on these.
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Following on from my last update Bill Bedford posted on the LNER forum that I had got the battery boxes in the wrong place and that the NBR didn't use threads/nuts on their queen posts - apparently the bottoms of the queen posts are curved and the rod is continuous from turnbuckle to turnbuckle sitting in the curve. The reason that the battery boxes were in the wrong place is that the split box is split to allow a support rod to pass between them across the width of the coach from one queen post to the other.
So I sat it for a couple of days doing other bits and pieces - trying to make my own turnbuckles. Which turned out to be a dismal failure. I made a jig to bend the rod to shape and cutting short lengths of tube was no problem but soldering them together was a complete no no. I made a couple of jigs and even tried using the microflame and tiny bits of solder. Despite blackening the jig all I got for my pain and 4 hours of trying was it all soldered to the jig or stuck to the soldering iron as I tried to go in and out very swiftly.
So back to plan A where I buy them.
After wasting most of yesterday with the turnbuckles I did manage to get the battery rearranged and the queen posts modified to this stage.
So I sat it for a couple of days doing other bits and pieces - trying to make my own turnbuckles. Which turned out to be a dismal failure. I made a jig to bend the rod to shape and cutting short lengths of tube was no problem but soldering them together was a complete no no. I made a couple of jigs and even tried using the microflame and tiny bits of solder. Despite blackening the jig all I got for my pain and 4 hours of trying was it all soldered to the jig or stuck to the soldering iron as I tried to go in and out very swiftly.
So back to plan A where I buy them.
After wasting most of yesterday with the turnbuckles I did manage to get the battery rearranged and the queen posts modified to this stage.
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
In tandem with the NBR BG I have also been progressing the Kemilway Diagram 176.
The duckets took a bit of forming but I got there in the end.
The detail supplied for the guards compartment is really quite something.
The duckets took a bit of forming but I got there in the end.
The detail supplied for the guards compartment is really quite something.
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Bogies
Once the sides were on the D176 I turned my attention to the bogies - yes I know that I need the underframe but there is method in my madness honest!
I need some Fox bogies for the BG and I have in the stash several sets of Newbould model Fox bogies (they are desdtined for other things but can be borrowed in the interim...).
The things about the Newbould bogies is that nice as they are there are no instructions so I had the lightbulb moment of building a set of Kemilway and a set of Newbould in tandem so that I could cross reference parts to get an idea of how the Newbould ones go together.
Below are a couple of photos of where I got to. - All is done to this point without any soldering on either pair of bogies.
First up the Kemilway version. They gave the first time that I have had to do any amount of filing, which was needed on the front and rear of the frames. To be fair the instructions do point out that you will need to make them fit properly.
Then the Newbould version.
So far they are similar in many respects.
Once the sides were on the D176 I turned my attention to the bogies - yes I know that I need the underframe but there is method in my madness honest!
I need some Fox bogies for the BG and I have in the stash several sets of Newbould model Fox bogies (they are desdtined for other things but can be borrowed in the interim...).
The things about the Newbould bogies is that nice as they are there are no instructions so I had the lightbulb moment of building a set of Kemilway and a set of Newbould in tandem so that I could cross reference parts to get an idea of how the Newbould ones go together.
Below are a couple of photos of where I got to. - All is done to this point without any soldering on either pair of bogies.
First up the Kemilway version. They gave the first time that I have had to do any amount of filing, which was needed on the front and rear of the frames. To be fair the instructions do point out that you will need to make them fit properly.
Then the Newbould version.
So far they are similar in many respects.
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
I've pulled up a chair and have my popcorn.
Actually in discussion with Peter Dobson some while ago about these bogies he suggested doing exactly as you're doing here and using the Kemilway instructions. I too have a short stack of them in stock; in my case destined for a rake of LSWR gangway stock. Yes, I'm still scratchbuilding carriages...
Steph
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Yes, I'm still scratchbuilding carriages...
I look forward to seeing them in due course.
I managed to finally pick up a copy of Jenkinson's carriage building book without having to pay a kings ransom when I took Chris down to the GWR at Toddington in June - a guy selling books at the station had a sale on although he was reluctant to give me the promised across the range discount when he saw what I wanted. I paid a tenner for it in the end which was less than new and significantly less than some copies I have seen for sale.
All that is a long way of saying that I might have a back myself at some point
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
No photo's yet but some progress has been made with the bogies before I succumbed to lurgy that has been haunting me for a couple of weeks.
Unlike many etched kits, unless other wise stated all the folds on the Kemilway kits go to the outside and I as I have come to expect, the instructions for the bogies start of by stating this. They then deviate from it completely with many of the folds in the first section of construction needing to be to the inside......
You can just make out albeit it's not the clearest photo in the work that the right hand Kemilway bogie above has two strips protruding upwards from the middle of the bogie - where you would expect the bolster to be. While looking at the illustrations that accompany the text it's clear that there are a few small tabs that clearly fold inside not outside. This was nagging at me so I re-read the instructions and thinking about it more I realised that this bit was wrong as well and that they should have folded down not up. This allows the pieces that fold out from them to sit cleanly on the top on the bogie ends where they should.
So having redone the ones that were wrong - very gently and nothing having broken away I am now ready to look at the springs.
On a different note I would just like to commend the service that I have received from CPL. I have only ever bought items from CPL at shows and I recently enquired by email about some LNER coach etches that they have listed. Pat Legg very kindly sent me some photo copies of the etches so that I could see what was included and explained how to order etc. Those may be on the cards for the New Year when funds permit but in the mean time I sent of an order for various bit's and pieces to help me finish the NBR BG. Posted the order and cheque on Monday and I only had a 2nd class stamp to hand. I received a package with the order this morning. Super service, especially I would expect that PCL are probably attending the Reading show and as such will no doubt have a busy week this week. Highly recommended
Unlike many etched kits, unless other wise stated all the folds on the Kemilway kits go to the outside and I as I have come to expect, the instructions for the bogies start of by stating this. They then deviate from it completely with many of the folds in the first section of construction needing to be to the inside......
You can just make out albeit it's not the clearest photo in the work that the right hand Kemilway bogie above has two strips protruding upwards from the middle of the bogie - where you would expect the bolster to be. While looking at the illustrations that accompany the text it's clear that there are a few small tabs that clearly fold inside not outside. This was nagging at me so I re-read the instructions and thinking about it more I realised that this bit was wrong as well and that they should have folded down not up. This allows the pieces that fold out from them to sit cleanly on the top on the bogie ends where they should.
So having redone the ones that were wrong - very gently and nothing having broken away I am now ready to look at the springs.
On a different note I would just like to commend the service that I have received from CPL. I have only ever bought items from CPL at shows and I recently enquired by email about some LNER coach etches that they have listed. Pat Legg very kindly sent me some photo copies of the etches so that I could see what was included and explained how to order etc. Those may be on the cards for the New Year when funds permit but in the mean time I sent of an order for various bit's and pieces to help me finish the NBR BG. Posted the order and cheque on Monday and I only had a 2nd class stamp to hand. I received a package with the order this morning. Super service, especially I would expect that PCL are probably attending the Reading show and as such will no doubt have a busy week this week. Highly recommended