Slaters MR/LMS Kirtley 0-6-0 Goods (Johnson) 7L007

[John Walker]

I joined the Scale 7 Group at Telford having volunteered to build the Slaters MR/LMS Kirtley 0-6-0 Goods (Johnson) 7L007 (Slater's Plastikard - MR/LMS Kirtley 0-6-0 Goods (Johnson)) for HMRS to run on Dewsbury Goods.

I usually model in O gauge (https://sites.google.com/site/ogaugeinthegarden/home) and 3mm finescale 14.2 (Swanage in 3mm).

As a starter I have changed the wheels on my late Dad’s J71 using those available from the Scale 7 group. That was straightforward enough.

The Kirtley Goods looks more of a challenge. For a start there is no clearance over Scale 7 wheels between the splashers, assuming the same face to face dimension as with the J71 wheels. However I think there is scope for moving the splashers out a bit.

The kit includes Slaters wheels and extended axles. The extended axles and wheel centres have a matching taper. I am hoping that Colin Dowling can reprofile these wheels for Scale 7.

David White has been very helpful and he is sending me Scale 7 axles to replace the O gauge ones in the kit.

There is a problem with the outside cranks included in the kit as shown below.



The plastic shoulder is too big too run in the outside axleboxes. I removed the plastic shoulder using a piercing saw to expose the brass insert. This turned out to be like a three-penny bit so I mounted the crank on its axle in the Unimat and turned the brass shoulder to remove the flats. It is a bit loose in the hornblock now but it doesn’t really matter as it isn’t a running surface. I have also substituted a countersunk screw for the crankpin as the cheesehead supplied fouls the hornguides. All that looks good now. If I have a problem due to the need for sideplay I could turn a parallel bush to fit behind the insert.

While waiting for the replacement axles and a response from Colin I have started work on the tender. My intention is to find out how much sideplay is needed to run on Dewsbury Goods which we think has a minimum radius of 6 feet. Then I will have to decide whether to increase the width across the inside frames of loco and tender. This will also give me the information needed to revisit the clearance between the splashers.

I would be interested to know if anybody else has built this kit.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

I joined the Scale 7 Group at Telford...................................................................................................... I am hoping that Colin Dowling can reprofile these wheels for Scale 7.

Welcome to S7 John, email sent regarding wheels

Col.

 

[John Walker]

Thanks Colin.

Things are looking good today. Colin can reprofile the wheels and I have checked the dimensions in the kit against the DUBS drawing in Midland Engines No.4 - The 700 Class Double Frame. The dimension over the outside frames in the kit look correct but the splashers need moving out by about 0.8mm each side to match the drawing. That will give me some clearance. I don't know yet how that will impact the platform and the rest of the parts.

John

 

[John Walker]

Here is progress on the tender chassis today.



I have made up the inner frames according to the instructions but I haven't fitted the spacers. These will need fettling to fit but I don't
intend to do that as yet. I expect I will widen the frames for a better look. They were not present on the prototype. I could cut the top plate
down the middle and solder to gapped PCB to give me split frame pickup. Do we have anything in Scale 7 to help with that?

I have 2x0.52mm etched washers on the front and back wheels and just one on the centre. Using my J71 Scale 7 wheels that gives me enough
sideplay to negotiate my 6' radius S bend without gauge widening. I could remove the extension and turn round the hornblocks in addition to
removing a washer all round to maximise the distance between the frames. That decision will wait until I have tried it on Dewsbury Goods.

There is plenty of clearance between the outer frames. I have checked that by bolting the inner frame to the footplate as seen in the picture
above. The footplate still has to be separated from the fret.

Before I start work on the outer frames we have to decide on some options. These tenders were rebuilt in the 1890s and some frames finished up
longer than others.

John

 

[Steph Dale]

John,
Colin may not necessarily appreciate me noting this here but he did some fab outside cranks for me in steel (for Slater's wheels) a while back...
Steph

 

[John Walker]

I have folded up the horn guides for the loco and tack soldered for now. I need to check them against the coupling rods. I hope they are OK because they are part of the frames and there is no provision in the kit for adjustment. I have bent down the frames and, not surprisingly, the result is the same as for the tender and J71. That is, one less washer on the centre drivers allows it to run round a 6' radius using my J71 wheelset. Here is a picture showing the centre drivers offset to the right on my 6' radius.



I haven't added the ashpan sides or fixed the motion bracket or rear spacer because I expect to increase the distance between the frames later.

Next job is to assemble the etched steel laminated coupling rods. The bosses are very small and I like to bush laminated rods with tube otherwise the laminations, with solder between, act like a saw blade and cut into the crankpins. The Slaters crankpin bushes leave little clearance for the coupling rod bushes so I will need to think about that.

Steph: Thanks for your comment re: Colin and outside cranks. I may need to follow that up later. The Slaters outside cranks do look a bit hefty although I like the way they locate on the square ends of the axle.

 

[unklian]

I shall watch this build while I wait patiently for the Gauge 3 version to appear. It will won't it .......

 

[John Walker]

It has been suggested that I add sideplay to the outer axles and reduce that on the middle one. The kit is designed for the centre axle to be
powered so this would reduce the motor/gearbox movement and the clearance problem between the splashers. I now have the same number of washers on each axle and all seems well. In fact I think the loco and tender chassis are running a bit more freely on my S curve.

I assembled the main laminates for the coupling rods but not the boss overlays. They are bushed, temporarily, with brass tubes to fit 4mm
crankpins and I used them to set up my Avonside Chassis2. As expected this showed that my hornguides needed a bit of adjustment. All is now
well and the chassis is running smoothly with the coupling rods in place on my S curve using my J71 wheels and 4mm crankpins.

Slaters have sent me Scale 7 axles and Colin Dowling reprofiled my Slaters wheels by return. Superb service. Now my tender trials can use Scale
7 axles and wheels but I am still using my J71 wheels on the loco because I don't want to risk damaging the taper on the outside crank axles
and wheels.

I have tapped the Slaters outside cranks 12BA but the Slaters crankpin bushes are really too big for the coupling bosses, especially as I want
to bush the rods with brass tube. My plan is to redrill and tap the cranks 10BA and use the Scale 7 group crankpins. These have a plain
steel pin which can run in 2.4mm OD/1.6mm ID tubes with a prototypical 12BA nut on the outside.

Opening up the hole in the coupling rod to 2.4mm proved a bit of a problem. I have done one so far as shown below. I finally fitted the outer
laminates to the boss and then soldered the boss to a sheet of nickel silver. I clamped this to the bed of my mill/drill and opened up the hole in the coupling rod 0.1mm at a time.

The left hand boss below shows the fitting of a small tube to fit the 4mm crankpin. The right hand boss is now complete with all laminates, Scale 7 crankpins and is bushed as described above, all on the J71 wheels for now. 5 more to go.

 

[farnetti]

I did try one of these for S7 about 25 years ago and was unhappy about the frame spacing - too narrow. Made up some new spacers to widen it, bought inside motion from Shedmaster (now Laurie Griffin) and turned wheels, axles, inside and outside cranks from Alan Harris.

However it didn't go well and perhaps I should have stuck to the kit frame spacing although the clearance between the frame and the rear face of the driving wheels didn't look right. Upshot is I sold the kit but, if anyone is interested, I still have the Alan Harris wheels and inside motion.

Ken

 

[John Walker]

Hello Ken: I expect to increase the frame spacing when I have fully understood the implications on other parts and checked the sideplay I have allowed on Dewsbury Goods. It looks to me as though the outside frames are correct but the splashers are also narrower than prototype. This will affect the cab front and the motion bracket which is a bit of a pain.

I have completed the rebushing of one coupling rod and it is working fine with the Scale 7 crankpins. Here is my setup for drilling, 0.1mm at a time as described in my previous post. Using larger drills or a broach risks the hole drifting or rod twisting.



My latest concerns are that it is very difficult to hide the lines between the laminations around the bosses and the bosses are a bit too thick. However they are just right for the length of the plain part of the crankpins.

Another concern is that the kit assumes the motor/gearbox driving the centre axle. I think this might show between the splashers. If it does not look acceptable an ABC gearbox driving the rear axle might be possible. Then I will have to fill the hole which is machined into the bottom of the boiler for the Slaters gearbox.

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

Hi John,

I like your solution to drilling out the crank pin holes and I fully agree with you bushing with brass tube, the brass is a much better bearing surface than nickel silver. I do the same but I open out the holes with a taper reamer, not a 5 sided broach, but a cutting one. I work from both sides until the tube is a push fit and then solder in the tube.

To get the boss laminations to disappear takes a bit of work with a file but as you have a drill press a wee dodge I use is to mount a vertical pin same size as the crank pin on the table and an end mill in the chuck and rotate the rod against the cutter. Always go against the cutter and take fine cuts. A rotary burr works just as well if you can get a small diameter one.

I haven't built one of these kits but all my 0-6-0s have the drive on the rear axle. Some of the early ones use a worm and wheel but the most recent have ABC mini gearboxes with the motor vertical in the firebox. That leaves plenty room for a crank axle and the only compromise is a slightly higher footplate at the front of the cab which is hidden if you fit a crew.

Ian

 

[John Walker]

Coupling rods are done although they would benefit from further fettling. They will be very prominent on the finished model so maybe I should replace them with profile milled ones from Premier Components. I will have a look at Reading in December. That decision will have to be made while I still have the opportunity to adjust the hornguides to suit.

Here is one coupling rod on my J71 wheels in the chassis and a part rod on the Slaters outside crank with Scale 7 group crankpin.



Next job is to work on the tender pickups and then motorise the loco chassis in the hope that next month I can run some trials on Dewsbury Goods.

 

[John Walker]

Hello Ian: I like your solution for cleaning up bosses. I'll try that on some of my other locos before committing to the Kirtley rods which have very little material to go at.

Here is the chassis with the Slaters motor/gearbox:




... and here is the ABC mini with Canon motor:



It looks like the ABC gearbox can be completely enclosed in the ashpan and the motor in the firebox. Driving the rear axle would also give me the option of inside motion. I can always use the Slaters motor/gearbox on another project.

The other parts shown here are the ashpan and a firebox side. I am not sure if the ashpan is quite right. It needs more thought.

I have always had a problem finding the centre for pushing out half etch rivets using my GW rivet press. This time I used a drill with the diameter of the half etch in a pin vice twiddled by hand to mark the centre followed by the press and that worked much better. Is this old hat or are there better ways?

 

[Dog Star]

I have always had a problem finding the centre for pushing out half etch rivets using my GW rivet press.

I think that your "problem" is likely to occur with most "rivetting" products, same thing happens with our Metalsmith version.

This time I used a drill with the diameter of the half etch in a pin vice twiddled by hand to mark the centre followed by the press and that worked much better. Is this old hat or are there better ways?

My good friend Paul (@Locomodels) made some replacement punches for our Metalsmith rivet pinch where the "sharp end" was the diameter of the half-etch dimple and with a "ball end"... that improved the quality of the resulting "rivets" dramatically.

 

[John Walker]

Now need a couple of wires ...



There are three baseplates on the tender. The top one is the base of the tank and carries the fixing nuts. The middle one carries the draw beam so that I can hook it to the loco. The bottom one is the inner chassis.



The loco-tender buffer housings took some fettling to fit between the inner frames. They would have been easier to fit if I had moved the frames out but I am not ready for that yet.

I don't like the idea of running the drawbar on the thread of 8BA nuts so I haven't soldered the coupling bracket.

Ian: I tried applying your method to the connecting rod for my David Andrews U. It worked very well but I got a bit over enthusiast and nearly completely removed the protrusion on the bottom of the boss, which is hidden in this picture. I don't know why it is there but now I have seen it it will have to be restored! I did manage to keep enough of the half etch tabs to represent the cork although it looks look there should be a small nut as well.

 

[John Walker]

It runs ...

 

[Scale7JB]

And very nicely too!

JB.

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

Ian: I tried applying your method to the connecting rod for my David Andrews U. It worked very well but I got a bit over enthusiast and nearly completely removed the protrusion on the bottom of the boss, which is hidden in this picture. I don't know why it is there but now I have seen it it will have to be restored! I did manage to keep enough of the half etch tabs to represent the cork although it looks look there should be a small nut as well.

Hi John,

I should have warned you to take care! If you use a suitable diameter of cutter you can get the boss to rod blended nicel. As for the oil cork on the top of the boss I always file off the half etched cork, it very seldom is the correct shape, and replace it with a piece of wire in a drilled hole. Looks better and doesn't take long.

It's always satisfying when you test your work and it runs, well done. Onwards and upwards, bodywork can be very satisfying as you start to see the bits becoming a locomotive.

Ian

 

[John Walker]

I have assembled the outside frames, drag beam and buffer beam for the tender as shown below.



Next job should be the spring push rods. I have soldered one in place, the centre one in the picture. It would have looked more convincing had there been a slot in the footplate and the spring and hornblock castings so that one continuous rod could be fitted. While I think about that I will move on to the tank, another load of rivets and some critical bends!

 

[John Walker]

Last Monday we had a chance to try the Kirtley on Dewsbury Goods. It was far from perfect, but encouraging. I think I have allowed enough sideplay but more weight will be needed. The machined boiler and smokebox should help with that.

I have rivetted and folded up the outside frames after removing the splasher fronts. You can just see the remains of the half etch fold lines in front of the wheels. I have not made a perfect job of the rivets but hopefully they will do. I have started work on the firebox and bolted the lot together. It is starting to look like a Kirtley.



The next job is to strengthen the folds in the outside frames and start filing back where the splashers will fit to provide adequate clearance.

I intend to widen the inside frames so that the washers can be removed. This will just leave the hornblocks to be fitted to the tapered axles before fitting the proper wheels. The tyres on these are 3.6mm wide. I will need to face off the front to reduce this to 3.2mm to clear the splashers as on the J71 wheels above. I have produced a crude mounting to do that in my Unimat but haven't tried it yet. This is not as critical as the reprofiling which Colin did for me.

It would help if I could reduce the tyre width some more. Can anyone advise whether it is feasible to go below 3.2mm, as much as 2.8mm perhaps? This would really help with the splasher issue.