Southern Turnout Timbers

[Pencarrow]

OK, I have limited knowledge of all things track but am building my own from C&L parts for my 7mm layout.

I've used Templot to draw up a track plan and I've used the following:
B6 turnouts as a crossing
31.5mm MF track gauge
Track centres at 95mm (wider than normal to allow room for kit between the tracks) - NOTE: I altered this to 80mm a few posts down the thread

Now, I've plotted it out but have noticed something strange to my uneducated eye - two long timbers touching each other (below pen nib).



Is this correct for a Southern BR(S) 1960 layout?

Looks like this:



Looks awkward to me.

The only alternative I can see is below, which doesn't seem right either:



Any thoughts or advice appreciated.

 

[Peter Cross]

I think with mine I made the timbers go all the way across and move them to get some space.

I copied this which was the entrance to the gas works.

 

[Pencarrow]

Very interesting Peter, I've been looking for photos like that, thought I'd seen one somewhere. I'm looking for one of the loco release end.

 

[Peter Cross]

On my plan I did all the cross overs like this, as this is basically a cross over but with a slip at one end. I assumed if LSWR did it on one it would be repeated on alike formations.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

LSWR did it on one it would be repeated on alike formations.

I would hazard a guess that most, if not all, companies would have built crossovers in a similar fashion.

 

[Pencarrow]

Major mishap avoided there then. I've located a few more photos like the extract you posted Peter and they appear to use long sleepers.

Track makes me nervous. I feel I don't know enough about it to do a decent job or to know if what I'm doing is wrong.

This exercise has also highlighted another potential mishap avoided but that's a different story...

 

[Peter Cross]

I know that feeling. Was all right before you wanted to make a layout nearer to the prototype.

Good thing with this and other sites like it, there is always someone around who not afraid to say when you have made errors.

 

[Pencarrow]

The other error is the track centres I've used - 95mm. After previously reading some learned text that insisted that the usual 11' (77mm) was widened on loops to give extra room for ground signals and rodding etc I did some measuring off the Bodmin photos last night. All the evidence points to the track centres being 11' in the station.

Going to have to revisit the templot drawing to narrow this down. (Will reduce from 95mm to 80mm). Arse!

 

[Pencarrow]

I know that feeling. Was all right before you wanted to make a layout nearer to the prototype.

Good thing with this and other sites like it, there is always someone around who not afraid to say when you have made errors.

My layout is miles off the prototype Peter! It's got several metres missing from the length points left off and all sorts of other compromises. "Inspired by" would be a better description.

I knew I'd have to do some manual timber shoving on the track but assumed that Templot had the timbers right on turnouts. From the reading I did last night this isn't the case. I need to manually add the extra long timbers c20' to turnouts. Muppet.

At least I know now and not after the track is finished! Looks like I need to get the MEK out to make some longer timbers.

 

[simond]

Chris

Been doing a bit of background - won't do anything 'til you send me the revised box files...

Best
Simon

 

[Eastsidepilot]

The LNER, LMS and SR all used these crossing patterns from 1926. The GWR were on a different planet !



Col.

 

[S-Club-7]

The LNER, LMS and SR all used these crossing patterns from 1926. The GWR were on a different planet !

These arrangements will only work for the standard track spacing, shown as 6'5½" in a couple of locations above, and you may find using an non-scale gauge will also affect the arrangements.

Some things to bear in mind when timbering crossings:

1. The Z Y X A B C D etc chairs are designed to be specific distances apart; they simply will not fit at any other spacing.
2. The timbers supporting these chairs can be skewed slightly provided the chair is properly supported and the fixing bolts don't end up in thin air. Wider 14" (more expensive) timbers can be used if needed.
3. Adjusting the track spacing (even by a mm or two) can make a tremendous difference to the timbering; very much worth playing with in Templot to ease getting a more satisfactory result.
4. The GWR were more fond of long through timbers (more expensive) than the other companies were. Getting the chairs to align to accommodate these is easiest done by adjusting the track spacing (see 3 above).
5. Turnout timbering is an art not a science. The aim is to provide adequate support leaving enough room for ganger shovels to allow ballast packing.

 

[Pencarrow]

The LNER, LMS and SR all used these crossing patterns from 1926. The GWR were on a different planet !

View attachment 60939

Col.

Very interesting to see the methodology used for the different angles. Also interesting that none of the diagrams use extra long sleepers as shown in the photo that Peter posted. I wonder if that makes the track pre-1926, or if such modern advancement took a while to get down onto deepest darkest Bodmin?

Looks like I need to argue with Templot again tonight.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Very interesting to see the methodology used for the different angles. Also interesting that none of the diagrams use extra long sleepers as shown in the photo that Peter posted. I wonder if that makes the track pre-1926, or if such modern advancement took a while to get down onto deepest darkest Bodmin?

Looks like I need to argue with Templot again tonight.

Until very recently the terminus at Southend Victoria still had timber sleepers at the end of the platform roads, all half buried in the ballast where as the outer areas of the station throat and beyond have long been concrete, so your '60's period branch terminus could possibly still have pre-group timbers.
Certainly the yard would of, maybe still with 9'-0" sleepers.

Col.

 

[Pencarrow]

OK, I'm now back with the trackplan redrawn to 80mm track centres. This does give me a little more room in the yard which helps.

With background:


Without background:


Closer, in two halves:



I'm much happier with the timbering in the loco release crossover - do I need 2 more long timbers each side?:


Happier here too with some sleeper rolling and shoving:


Absolutely no idea what to do here to turn the diamond into a double-slip (tried following the Templot tutorial again) and I'm completely lost on what the sleeper arrangement should be to sort out the mess of overlapping timbers:

 

[Dog Star]

I'm much happier with the timbering in the loco release crossover - do I need 2 more long timbers each side?

Toss a coin and hope that it does not land on its edge. As shown the key elements are blocked through, I can see a case for adding two more at the start of the closures (main line stuff or station re-laid - say - late 1940s).

I'm completely lost on what the sleeper arrangement should be to sort out the mess of overlapping timbers:

Do as you have done with the crossovers in earlier photos, arrange for the RH common crossing of the diamond to be blocked through with the common crossing of the RH turnout - looks like twelve timbers to be sorted.

 

[daifly]

Forgive the question Graham but what do you actually mean by the phrase 'blocked through' please?
Dave

 

[Dog Star]

Forgive the question Graham but what do you actually mean by the phrase 'blocked through' please?
Dave

A timber which runs from one side to the other side of a formation (within reason, generally spanning two adjacent tracks). A "blocked through" timber does not have to be a single piece of wood... horizontal or vertical splices are possible.

 

[martin_wynne]

I knew I'd have to do some manual timber shoving on the track but assumed that Templot had the timbers right on turnouts.

There isn't a "right".

The default settings in Templot have the timbering as near as possible to the REA bullhead designs for single turnouts. But they can only be "right" if you model to exact scale (S7).

In 0-MF the reduced 31.5mm gauge means the turnout lead length is also reduced, so the timbering can only ever be an approximation to "right".

All the settings for timber sizes and spacings, position of rail joints, etc., can be set in Templot to whatever you want, but Templot has no way of knowing what you want by itself.

When turnouts are combined into crossovers and more complex formations, the timbering has to be adjusted accordingly, and on the prototype each design is done individually to suit the site. There is also the question of whether timbering is square-on or equalized (skewed), determined by traffic flows and speed restrictions over each route and the presence of any curving and cant.

If you get stuck in Templot the answer is to ask on the friendly Templot Club forum, at

Templot Club

The subject of timbering layouts has been covered on there at great length many times over the years.

regards,

Martin.

 

[martin_wynne]

The LNER, LMS and SR all used these crossing patterns from 1926. The GWR were on a different planet !

The drawing has been posted a few times in different forums, but please note the word SHORT on the drawing.



These crossover layouts are intended for use in yards and sidings, etc., minimizing the use of long timbers for economy.

These are not necessarily the correct layouts for running lines and heavy traffic, where there would be many more long timbers across the full width to create a more robust design. This is especially the case if the crossover is on a curve.

regards,

Martin.