.

TheSnapper

Western Thunderer
Graham - Plan B. I'm not sure if it is too bassy, and not "hollow" enough for a 31, if you see what I mean. What do you think?

Simon - Capacitors are 3300μF 25v, which I had "in stock". To be honest, the bigger the better, but I wanted to keep the installation on the small board I fabricated. Usually, I buy them from my local Maplins.

The beauty of the Zimo chips is that they have the "stay-alive" circuitry built-in, and include 2 flying leads for connection:

Cap_Details.JPG
Tim
 

Simon

Flying Squad
Graham - Plan B. I'm not sure if it is too bassy, and not "hollow" enough for a 31, if you see what I mean. What do you think?

Simon - Capacitors are 3300μF 25v, which I had "in stock". To be honest, the bigger the better, but I wanted to keep the installation on the small board I fabricated. Usually, I buy them from my local Maplins.

The beauty of the Zimo chips is that they have the "stay-alive" circuitry built-in, and include 2 flying leads for connection:

View attachment 19694
Tim

Brilliant!

Thanks for the info, just what I was after:thumbs:

Simon
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Tim, how have you wired the condensers to the chip? (by that I mean... what is the arrangement of the wiring? series / parallel.. )

regards, Graham
 

TheSnapper

Western Thunderer
Graham

Capacitors are wired in parallel to get the sum of the capacitance.
This is opposite to the law for Resistors, which you need to wire in series to get the sum of the resistance (which I'm sure you know already).

Tim
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Graham

Capacitors are wired in parallel to get the sum of the capacitance.
This is opposite to the law for Resistors, which you need to wire in series to get the sum of the resistance (which I'm sure you know already).

Tim
Graham, and if they are dielectrics make sure you wire the same legs together or else!, I presume the Zimo stay alive is a DC circuit?

Dielectrics may also help with the physical size too, they offer much more capacitance for the same physical size as a normal capacitor.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
... if they are dielectrics make sure you wire the same legs together or else!
Yup, been there, got the medal (quickest exit from the lab etc.). Thirty years back... floppy black wire met floppy red wire in a Flight Management Power Supply... white snow everywhere and we were not allowed back into the lab for the remainder of the day.

I presume the Zimo stay alive is a DC circuit?
If the question refers to my earlier post... the keep alive was supplied by ESU. I suspect that the module is a regulated charging circuit as there are three wires to be interfaced into the ESU decoder.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Yup, been there, got the medal (quickest exit from the lab etc.). Thirty years back... floppy black wire met floppy red wire in a Flight Management Power Supply... white snow everywhere and we were not allowed back into the lab for the remainder of the day.


If the question refers to my earlier post... the keep alive was supplied by ESU. I suspect that the module is a regulated charging circuit as there are three wires to be interfaced into the ESU decoder.

regards, Prof. Baffled of Barking Creek
Graham, no no no, not floppy wires, thats a dead short and will tend to do that with any capacitor LOL, dielectrics can only have the + leg attached to the + rail, normal capacitors can be connected either way around.

ESU?, not sure, I have a DCC set up....stored afe in said box for future use....but no chips as yet so cannot say for certain that the stay-alive circuit is DC or AC, probably the former if I were to make a wild stab, because if the latter then capacitors do not discharge AC only smooth it.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
"+rail" in a DCC world?
Doesn't exist old chap.

Excuse egg sucking exercise!

DC has a + and - supply, a line of connectors of lets say + terminations would be called a + rail or a +bus. In DC parlance + and - are also called Positive and Negative.

AC has a live and neutral, quite why as half the time it's one way and the other half the other way <dizzy>

So, if the stay-alive is on the DCC side of the circuit it will be an AC supply (highly unlikely as circuit boards generally don't like AC) if it's on the rectified side (highly likely as circuit boards like to get into bed with DC) then it will be DC.

If the stay-alive is AC (DCC) then you can only use a normal capacitor, if the stay-alive is DC then you can use a dielectric, the advantage of the dielectric is that for it's capacitance value it is significantly smaller in size than a normal capacitor. The bigger the capacitor the longer the stay-alive circuit will work for when supply is removed, as Tim notes above the bigger the capacitor the better, that's capacitive value not physical.

If you had a normal capacitor of say 30uF it may be the size of a baked bean time, the equivalent in dielectric would be AA battery sized, now! If you had space for a baked bean tin, image the power you'd get from a capacitor that was dielectric!

Our cranes use dielectric capacitors on the DC bus to smooth the rectifier ripple, size wise they are about two baked bean tins stacked end to end, touch the terminals on those and basically you'd be lucky to be alive. The ends are designed to blow out on fault, I've seen an end go through 3mm perspex. Dielectrics are superb power houses, just have to remember they have a little bit of a bite if you mishandle them :thumbs: and they will store their energy for weeks, even months, which is handy to know if you rummage around in a draw with a load of them in there!.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Guys,

Back in the bad old days I built stay-alive circuits for Zimo decoders - it was one of the reasons I sought out the brand. These tended to patch on to the decoder using the SUSI interface, so the charging/discharging circuit had to be included in the stay-alive circuits I built.

Later, other manufacturers' decoders using the SUSI interface could have circuits installed. Lenz bought out the Power1 to use with the Gold decoder and strangely lost the power management through SUSI. The Power1 certainly does include a charge/discharge circuit, but I suspect there's a degree of DC-DC conversion in there as well. The only way to get such high capacitance in such a small package is by dropping the voltage rating of the capacitor. I should add that I've not had one apart (yet).

ESU now offer a Power1-type technology for use with their decoders. In fact I believe from their early information releases on the subject that the approach is the same as Lenz and is copied with their approval (license?). For academic interest I add that the QSI Titan family of sound decoders can also work with Lenz Power1 modules.

From looking at the manuals it appears that both LokPilot and LokSound decoders can use both the ESU Power and home built circuits. The former are much more space-efficient.

BTW - SUSI was an interface developed by Dietz to allow their sound modules to be powered by, and receive instructions from, an associated drive-only decoder. The fitting of a capacitor across the +/- pads of the SUSI interface was therefore a good way to apply keep-alive power to the decoder's power rails.

I hope that's of some interest...

Steph
 
S

Simon Dunkley

Guest
Jordan, I'd just like to point out that you started this thread...
 

queensquare

Western Thunderer
A really useful post Tim, many thanks.
Mind you, with my 2mm eyes in those flywheels on the bogies almost look big enough to fit a CD drive to;)

Jerry
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Has anyone tried the ESU power packs ?
I think that what you are asking about is what we have fitted to a Loksound v4 chip (installed in a GWR Pannier). We decided to add the "keep-alive" module after changing from a plain DCC decoder to a sound decoder (marketing types might refer to this feature as "extra play value"... others as "added nuisance factor"). There was no problem with the change of decoder per se, other than an annoying sound-featurette in that temporary loss of power caused the sound decoder to reset the "sound" status. So said engine would sound the whistle and open the drain cocks whilst running at speed whenever there was a disruption in power pick-up from the wheels. The ESU keep-alive sorted the annoying sound featurette nicely.

An added benefit, or a gotcha-to-be-aware-of, is that the keep alive does do just that... so the engine does "run on" about 12" more than without the device. I do not understand why this is... Maybe Professor Steph can explain.

regards, Graham
 

richard carr

Western Thunderer
Thanks Graham, I think I will order one for my 31 and see what happens, its getting a V4 loksound chip not an XL, a bit of an experiment to see what happens, in theory the worst that should happen is that it shuts down if it gets overloaded, of course it could be that I will need a new chip instead !

Richard

PS

I now have some brass W irons for my JLTRT TTA wagons
 
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