Prototype Barry 1967 and 1968

Osgood

Western Thunderer
We only have these Barry engines because of a quirk of fate - and the resultant benefit of time standing still, giving us the opportunity to have another go at saving them.
Had they been cut up as at all other yards history would be very different.
It does amaze me that so much has been, and is being, invested in new builds - yet this would have been the only way to populate heritage railways (of which there would be far fewer without the Barry legacy).
 
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Ian@StEnochs

Western Thunderer
In the early days of preservation many of the embryonic schemes used industrial locos. Probably because they were cheap to buy and in most cases went straight from work to working in preservation. However most lines now are too big for industrial sized engines to cope and there are lots now languishing with no work and even less cash to keep them going. I fear many will end up being scrapped!

Ian.
 

Focalplane

Western Thunderer
The lack of easily available coal for steam locos is a concern as is the general rewriting of history that has become all too common. Who knows what the younger generations will be told in years to come? I have a bad feeling that a lot of petroleum driven classic cars will drop in value if electric cars are indeed forced on us by the politicians. I have even heard of some classic cars being converted to battery driven; in fact I saw one last July, an Alfa Romeo from the 1970s!

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Which poses the question “how many steam locos could be modified in the years to come?” A tender could hold a lot of batteries while the chuff sounds would be easily sourced using DCC!
 

simond

Western Thunderer
I quite like the idea of electric versions of classic cars, but I'm struggling to imagine liking a 12" scale version battery electric (well, assuming it started with a boiler, of course). Even the 5" gauge battery diesel-outline locos seem a bit, well, dead, to me.

and the Alfa might be good, (and looks like a very nicely carried out conversion) but I think I'd miss the howl from the Porsche...
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
Don't these conversions have fairly modest ranges, due in part to weight?
There was a program last year on a London based converter who has done some nice cars, but I'm sure range was stated in region of 50 to 80 miles?
 

simond

Western Thunderer
I would expect so, though weight is generally less of an issue than packaging space. Trouble is that cells are basically cuboid or cylindrical, and the space into which they need to fit isn’t. I was responsible for design of a few early batteries, the electric Rolls Royce and the Land Rovers at the Eden Project amongst others, and I have to admit that they were not world-beating in terms of range. The battery is not easy to see but it fills the space below the inverters, down to the front crossmember, and back into the transmission tunnel. It was not quite fag paper tight, but…

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I guess that 50 miles would be marginal for a run out or a classic show, but 100 might be enough for many owners, and for a hobby car, if it keeps it going, maybe it’s a good option.

but would a 911 be a 911 without a flat six in the back?

sorry for the rabbit hole, this has nothing to do with Barry scrapyard…
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
But it fills an intermission while Brian digs out more photos for us!

Just been rifling through and thoroughly enjoying a new delivery - BARRY SCRAPYARD by Keith W Platt (Amberley 2017).
A photo essay showcasing Keith's well-captioned images which cover the 70s and 80s - neatly following on from the era of Brian's visits.
Other than from suffering from small book size and perhaps not the best quality printing, a very interesting and informative book.
Must say it makes me appreciate a little more the grafitti era!

If anyone would like a good overall history of Barry scrapyard, I'd recommend both grand:
Peter Brabham's BARRY The story of the yard and its locomotives (OPC 2013),
and modest:
Beckett & Hardingham's The BARRY STORY includes 'The Barry List' 11th edition (Kingfisher 2010) - I think this was the last edition.

Roger Hardingham created a series of The Barry List in which the various mistaken identities of the early years are revealed and corrected.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks for the trips off piste. Some interesting ramblings there - keep 'em coming :). Why is the Morris Minor so collectable? I suggest because it was the first car for so many. I disliked mine with a passion..... However, I wish I'd kept my Honda S800. I couldn't afford to do so and buy another car and a house, so it had to go.

In the case of new build steam locos I wonder whether it's simply a case of there being more money swilling around in the economy now than there was then. After all, it would have been far preferable to buy a working loco than one from a scrap yard stripped of bits. I guess the need for more engines goes hand in hand with the blossoming in the number of preserved lines. I know there were exceptions but would BR have been happy to sell loads of locos to private individuals? It was one of the terms of the deal with scrap yards that these locos were not sold on for further use, although Woodham's found a way around that, fortunately.

I'll steer clear of electric steam engines! (I suppose we could fit overhead catenary to all the heritage lines. That'd do it, wouldn't it?) However, classic cars converted to battery power. That's anathema to me, personally. Even now my driving tends to be in big chunks and there's no car yet with the range. I certainly don't want to have to stop for four hours to top up the batteries. They may be good for shopping and commuter runs but what about the environmental cost of disposing of old batteries? And will an electric car with knackered batteries be worth anything? Surely the investment should be in to hydrogen and fuel cell research.

Barry books are useful things. I hope my photos fill a somewhat earlier gap at least in part.

Debate. :D

Which sort of brings us full circle. More photos later today, time permitting.

Brian
 

SimonT

Western Thunderer
Why is the Morris Minor so collectable?
From experience. Badly damaged my neck and in a collar off work for months. Best mate breaks his left leg playing rugby. He owns a Moggie. He drives and I do gears/clutch (nothing in the way) and thus the hunt for the first house for Mr & MrsT took place. And yes, we did have lunch and refreshment at suitable venues. Ah, the days of Archers brewery. Shame they went and godawful Arkells survived.
 

Focalplane

Western Thunderer
The Barry Story transcended what we would call normal behavior. From hundreds of thousands of condemned locos a small collection found its way to Barry and that collection became the mainstay of the preservation movement. AFAIK no Royal Scots went to Barry so only two were preserved when surely we would all like to have seen more on the rails today. On the other hand, those 2-8-2t tank engines might never have been salvaged if there had been more choice. One class loses out, another gains.

Provenance is a word often used in the heritage car movement to distinguish between identical cars on the basis of who may have owned it, whether of not it won races, and so on. The same applies to steam locos, imagine if Coronation did not have to brake south of Crewe and could have kept on going faster and faster! How many of the class might be preserved today? Seven if the LNER A4 is considered as having the better provenance.

Another parallel is the conversion of old cars to specials. Is this not akin to new builds like the Grange, using old parts from other similar locos too far gone to be restored? In my opinion, the Grange will never be the real thing, but a facsimile. I hope I don’t sound critical of the efforts involved by those building it, I admire them all.

Which brings me to originality. My 1933 Riley Lynx is not the car that left the factory in Coventry! It has a replacement engine for a start. It was also run into the ground in the 1960s and only became what it is today after a decade of restoration. It has survived due to some of the factors above including its unique provenance. I am pleased the restoration didn’t take the “special” route, but there is no getting away from the fact that it is in part a facsimile of the original.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Paul.

You are so right about the happy accident which resulted in the saving of the Barry locos. Also the issue of provenance. There must be many examples of "Trigger's Broom" out there - you know, three new handles and four new brush heads - but it's still Trigger's Broom. That's probably an exaggeration as some components of all these ex-Barry locos must be original but over time..... At the end of the day we're lucky to have a few locos which are kept in their final condition for research (don't get me started on the LSWR T3!) but, as with old buses, trucks, aircraft and trains - in fact anything that was built to move - are we not well served when they do so even though it inevitably compromises the provenance?

And, Crimson Rambler. Thanks so much for that. You couldn't make it up, could you?

Anyway, here are the offerings for today. 48431 and 30506 lurk in the background.

Class U 31806 is the only survivor of the engines rebuilt from 2-6-4 tanks. It was withdrawn from Guildford in January 1964 and arrived at Barry in June. It was purchased in 1975 and moved to the Mid Hants Railway returning to service in April 1981. I understand that it is currently leased to the Swanage Railway where it is undergoing another overhaul.

31806.  Barry Scrapyard.  18 November 1967.  copyright FINAL (2).jpg31806.  Barry Scrapyard.  18 November 1967.  copyright FINAL.jpg31806.  Barry.  18 November 1967.  Photo by Brian Dale.  copyright FINAL.jpg

Next is 31874, as far as I can establish the only N Class 2-6-0 in preservation. It was withdrawn rom Exmouth Junction in the middle of March 1964 and arrived at Woodham's in June. This loco also went to the Mid Hants Railway but in March 1974 and was trial steamed remarkably quickly, in 1976. This loco is now also on the Swanage Railway and currently under overhaul.

31874.  Barry.  18 November 1967.  Photo by Brian Dale.  copyright FINAL.jpg

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Here's another favourite class of mine, both in original and rebuilt condition. As those interested in the Barry story will already know there were more WCs, BBs and MNs at Barry than you could shake a stick at.

First rebuilt 34059, Sir Archibald Sinclair. This was withdrawn from Salisbury at the end of May 1966 and arrived in Barry in October so at the time of these photos had been at Barry for only just over a year. It was purchased by a group from the Bluebell Railway and arrived there in October 1979 minus the tender which had been sold to a local steelworks for use as an ingot carrier. It was first restored in 2009 but it failed with firebox problems in 2011, an issue which seems relatively common on these locos. A new inner firebox was made at the South Devon Railway (who have also produced a new firebox for Boscastle, probably among others. This was not initially completely successful for Boscastle, but that's a story for elsewhere). It has been re-wheeled and the overhaul is now coming to an end.

34059.  Barry.  18 November 1967.  Photo by Brian Dale.  copyright FINAL.jpg

Here's 34070, Manston, in original condition. This was withdrawn from Exmouth Junction in August 1964 and arrived at Barry in December. It was purchased by the Manston Locomotive Preservation Society and in June 1983 and was taken to Richborough Power Station for restoration to commence. It currently lives at Swanage although it's been at Tyseley for the second overhaul in preservation. By now it should just about be back at Swanage.

34070.  Barry.  18 November 1967.  Photo by Brian Dale.  copyright FINAL.jpg

The last one today is 34072, 257 Squadron. It was withdrawn at the end of October 1964 from Eastleigh. It arrived at Woodham’s in March 1965 until it left in November 1984 when it moved to Blunsdon eventually going to Swindon Works. It was restored in 1990 and has moved to the Swanage Railway. It was subsequently withdrawn with firebox problems but has been overhauled again. It remains at the Swanage Railway and has had a new internal steam pipe fitted recently. It must, by now, be almost ready to run again if this has not already been achieved.

34072.  Barry.  18 November 1967.  Photo by Brian Dale.  copyright FINAL.jpg

Brian
 

simond

Western Thunderer
However, classic cars converted to battery power. That's anathema to me, personally. Even now my driving tends to be in big chunks and there's no car yet with the range. I certainly don't want to have to stop for four hours to top up the batteries. They may be good for shopping and commuter runs but what about the environmental cost of disposing of old batteries? And will an electric car with knackered batteries be worth anything? Surely the investment should be in to hydrogen and fuel cell research.

off piste again…

I think it’s likely that batteries are going to be part of the mobility solution whether or not hydrogen is used as fuel.

Experiments with hydrogen in IC engines were being run at a fleet level by Magna Steyr and BMW back in the late noughties but despite eliminating CO2 the exhaust still contains nitrogen oxides due to combustion, though I guess these could be dealt with by catalysts, but this pathway seems to have died out, I haven’t heard of any large scale projects since then.

The other approach to hydrogen is fuel cells, which run cold (compared to IC engines) and produce electricity directly with only water as the exhaust. The issue with fuel cells is that they do not take kindly to transients, indeed, they run most efficiently at a constant load, which simply does not suit road applications - so the current solution is to use the fuel cell to charge the batteries, and the batteries as a store which can provide the brief bursts of high power demand, and importantly, which can recapture much of the braking energy that would otherwise be wasted.

Alternatively, a flywheel could be used as the energy store, not as good for efficiency, but better power handling than a battery. Possibly a good solution where it’s only transients ( acceleration, braking ) that need to be managed.

Additionally, there is an infrastructure issue: we simply do not have the means to generate and distribute hydrogen around the country. It’s difficult, slippery stuff to store (the BMWs I referred to above had massive stainless thermos flasks in the boot, the H2 was stored as slush) and the tendency would be to make it locally using electricity (hopefully entirely green, there’s no point in burning fuel to make electricity & CO2 if you are trying to eliminate tailpipe CO2) and whilst pilot plants exist, I suspect it would cost a lot of capital to install multiple H2 generators in every town & city.

I doubt you’d need to stop for four hours in a journey to charge, maybe a couple of half hour stops, though that might still be an inconvenience too far. And always assuming the charging stations work, and are not beset by queues. Home electric charging is pretty good for those of us with a driveway. If you’re one of the millions whose parking is on the street, your charging options might be less favourable.

And then there’s the question of “where’s all this electricity coming from?” UK transport used 36 million tons of oil in 2018 if I’m reading the report correctly. That’s a lot of generating capacity, which might pose another capital problem.
 

David B

Western Thunderer
Here is 94XX 0-6-0PT 9466. It was withdrawn from Radyr in July 1964 and left Barry Scrapyard for Quainton in September 1975. It was subsequently bought by Dennis Howells. He must have had friends in high places because the first two overhauls were undertaken at London Transport's Ruislip and Neasden Depots.
There was something special about 9466 when Dennis Howell owned it - I’ve never forgotten a trip up the 1 in 100 from Ricky to Amersham during one of the Steam on the Met weekends. I expected a gentle trundle, but the loco tore into the climb, hammering away up through Chorleywood and Chalfont as if it was hauling the Master Cutler. When we arrived at Amersham, I went up to thank the driver, who was a beaming Dennis Howell himself - one of the joys of Steam on the Met was the way that LUL allowed the owners to drive their own locos under supervision, which they understandably tended to enjoy to the full. I’m really enjoying this thread - there’s a lovely irony that some of those apparently dead and doomed hulks are the very same machines that helped me over the years to understand why the steam locomotive is the closest manmade thing to a living creature. The memory of 30506 shouting to the sky and spitting sparks at the stars on the 1 in 60 climb through Chawton Wood still makes my spine tingle. Please keep ‘em coming Brian.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks for your thoughts, Simon. Mine are that, whilst some form of battery usage may be necessary in future vehicles to have them as the sole source of power is likely to be only an interim solution. Surely the research investment should be in alternatives to battery power as the rime mover and the most promising is hydrogen even allowing for some significant hurdles to jump along the way. I'm reminded of the song and dance about long life light bulbs. (You know, the ones that took 5 minutes to reach a working output). Everything went very quiet about them once LEDs were on the market, and that technology, although not refined, had been around for ages.

Your final paragraph puts the cap on the discussion. It appears that we are marginal for power even now. Surely encouraging more use of electric cars and infrastructure must be accompanied by a similar investment in the supply industry. As for the stops along the way there is, even now, a real need for some rapid investment in the recharging infrastructure. A friend with a Tesla had to wait in a queue for several hours on the way back from Cornwall and that does not fill me with confidence.

But back to the subject in hand, David.....:) I remember 9466 at Steam on the Met. I don't think Steph and I missed a single one of those events, and used to try to catch the first train from Harrow on the Hill for the parallel running. They were great days out for sure and so inexpensive. I remember the enthusiasm of the staff as well. Unfortunately any steam events on the underground seem to be treated as a cash cow now. I suppose it's one way of limiting the numbers.

Only two Barry shots today. First is 34092, the volcano, otherwise known as City of Wells. Withdrawn from Salisbury at the end of November 1964 arriving at Barry in March 1965. A group from the KWVR bought it in October 1971 and it was first in steam in 1979. It was a popular main line performer. The East Lancs Railway have since bought the loco and it is currently operational.

34092.  Barry.  18 November 1967.  Photo by Brian Dale.  copyright FINAL.jpg

The second for today is 34101, Hartland, withdrawn from Eastleigh in July 1966. It arrived at Barry in October 1966 and stayed there until July 1978. Restoration was carried out at Loughborough and it was complete by 1993. It moved to the NYMR in 1995. It's currently under overhaul there but it's hoped it will be back in steam this year.

34101.  Barry.  18 November 1967.  Photo by Brian Dale.  copyright FINAL.jpg

Even more Bulleid pacifics to come, you lucky people!

Brian
 
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