BR 4MT 2-6-4T - resource material

Discussion in 'Resources' started by Dog Star, 12 December 2017.

  1. Ressaldar

    Ressaldar Western Thunderer

    Hi Martin,

    great photos, many thanks for posting them.

    Happy New Year

  2. Dog Star

    Dog Star Western Thunderer

    Thank you Martin,

    From what you have written, I think that these photos show the original form of spring attachment - all photos are courtesy of Jonpaul (@lnerjp) and each of the three photos are copyright Jonpaul Venus. I understand that the photos were taken about seven or eight years back and are of 80135 on the NYMR hence the images record what was then rather than what might be now.

    Spring hanger block 1.jpg

    Spring hanger block 2.jpg

    Spring hanger block 3.jpg

    The first photo show that the bottom of the suspension cup / block is flat (relatively so) with a recess (of what shape?) to contain the bottom end of the spring hanger "bolt". The other two photos illustrate the way in which the spring sits inside the spring hanger bracket and give glimpses of the top end of the suspension fixings.

    Anyone have photos of the top and bottom fixings as alluded to in Martin's post earlier? Or a description of how springs are changed / axle weight adjusted? Ok, modelling might not be impacted by the questions and answers, personal interest could be satisfied.

    thanks, Graham
  3. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad

    What a tremendous set of photos for modellers. Thanks for taking the time to prepare and annotate.

    Dog Star and Dan Randall like this.
  4. Scale7JB

    Scale7JB Western Thunderer

    My twopence worth...

    Yes, that's my balding patch by the way..


    Last minute repairs, out pulling trains a couple of hours later..

  5. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw Western Thunderer

    Ok last lot


    Front left buffer.

    Bogie frames.

    Bogie again. It was cold and raining at this point and I wasn't inclined to hang about, I'll take some better ones another time.

    Drivers side cab interior.

    LH tank side.


    RH tank top.


    LH tank top.


    Crosshead again, why?

    Set up on the surface table to establish centres.

    The slot where the cotter goes to hold the piston rod in.

    IMG_0452.1.jpg IMG_0452.1.jpg
    The other crosshead showing wher the drop link is attached.



    Slidebars 2, They are big and heavy.

    Valve and cylinder casting.

    I think that's enough from me, I hope that the pictures give some useful detail of the bare bones of the loco. If I can get over there on a decent day I'll take more detailed pics of the bits currently lying outside. If anyone wants something better pictured just ask.

    AJC, Mike Hughes, Pencarrow and 8 others like this.
  6. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw Western Thunderer


    As you can readily see ours is in bits and I didn't see any of the spring hanger components. I think I know where they are so I'll see what I can do in due course.


    Haven't forgotten about AWS, from memory it was bolted to the rear of the bogie, again with more clement weather I'll have a poke about.

  7. Ressaldar

    Ressaldar Western Thunderer

    Hi Martin,

    no rush, as I can proceed with the body work and come back to the AWS later.


  8. lnerjp

    lnerjp Western Thunderer

    Hi All & Graham

    Got some pictures of spring hangers yesterday.

    Hanger from 76079


    The block that sits on top of the spring with the slot in that the key sits in come in different thicknesses and is how you adjust the spring tension and therefore the axle weight. (if that makes sense?)


    Spencer block from underneath.


    And again.
  9. lnerjp

    lnerjp Western Thunderer



    Spring hanger from 80136


    Spencer block and other bits from 80136.

    Dog Star and Rob Pulham like this.
  10. Dog Star

    Dog Star Western Thunderer

    After seeing how those BR springs are fitted I am glad that my days of changing springs are over..

    Thank you Jeanpaul, very helpful in understanding how the suspension was designed (and still is on some of the Std 4 MT tanks).
  11. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw Western Thunderer

    Indeed I concur with Graham, ours are different and I will take pics when I can get to the railway. My understanding is that it was a modification to the spring hanger design by the Std loco owners group to make spring changes and subsequent weighing easier and was approved by one of the Vehicle Acceptance Bodies, presumably for all standard classes, but I may be wrong on this last point. Were they all the same?
  12. farnetti

    farnetti Western Thunderer

    Graham, Martin,

    Having recently started a MOK kit of the 4MT I find this thread very helpful. Grahams post 27 describes the kit as supplied and I am building 80064 as it was at Watford in 1959. There are several photos of the preserved loco but none I can find of the relevant spring blocks, modification would be relatively easy if needed.

    The Bluebell is a long way from here, anyone have an answer.


  13. markjj

    markjj Western Thunderer

    Do they have a Facebook page for 80064? It might be worth asking there for photos if they do. A lot of preserved loco's have very active Facebook pages.
    farnetti likes this.
  14. lnerjp

    lnerjp Western Thunderer

    Ken, unless anyone knows any better, I would accept that the spring set up was as in my photographs above, any other set up you see would have been done in preservation to make axle weight adjustment quicker/easier.

    farnetti and Dog Star like this.
  15. Riefler

    Riefler Member

    Hi Martin,
    Having been pointed in this direction by Graham on my MOK build thread, I have now down loaded the photos into my prototype file for future reference. What a brilliant set of photos, so let me add my thanks to you for having gone to the trouble of taking and posting them.

    I took a whole load of photos of 80002 stored out of service but intact on the KWVR, so I'll share them on my thread when I get a minute. There will be some duplication of yours but I trust somebody will find them useful, and as far as I am concerned, you can never have too many prototype photos. These are to be used in combination with in service photos, as we never know what you preservationist have changed to catch us out! ;)

    I think from looking at this that 80002 has the same type of hanger as posted by LNERJP. I've not decided which prototype to model yet, but to be honest I'm not too concerned about the hangers and won't be getting hung up on them. Pardon the pun.


    Rob Pulham likes this.
  16. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw Western Thunderer

    Your very welcome Peter.
    I can add a bit more to the spring hanger debate only gleaned yesterday. Apparently a change to the original design was proposed by BR but by that time steam had a limited life and it wasn't done. It will be obvious that the arrangement with cotters is somewhat hit and miss, and time consuming. By changing to a threaded hanger with adjusting nuts it would have been quicker and by machining a mark on the hornguide where the top of the axlebox should align, possible to adjust a spring to both the correct weight and buffer height, with relative ease. I have been told that most of the 80000s in preservation have done it and, theoretically at least, could be done with all the Std classes. Obviously some haven't.
    Dog Star likes this.
  17. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Martin,

    Do you mind if I post some of you photos on my thread as and when required? I will mention they are your copywrite.

  18. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw Western Thunderer

    Not at all, fill your boots. I'm watching your thread with some interest, not least because I am going to do one as well, but the A3 was just outstanding.
    Last edited: 20 May 2018
    P A D likes this.
  19. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw Western Thunderer

    A few more pics taken today.
    The driving wheels having been turned, the new tyre is apparent.

    The rear bogie


    One of the bogie main spring beams gently being tried

    Bogie wheel and axle with axlebox rotated nearly upside down

    Frames 1

    Frames 2
    Len Cattley and Dog Star like this.
  20. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    Out of curiosity, the new tyre looks larger diameter. Presumably the other tyres are half worn or more. Do you have to turn the new tyre down to match the diameter of the worn tyres? I imagine there would be problems with excess wear in the coupling rod bearings and less steady riding with an odd sized wheel on the loco. Is this the case I reality?