Cost of the hobby
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Neil
Western Thunderer
As an outsider I can't escape the notion that O gauge is expensive. I know that this is a huge oversimplification but looking at a simple comparison with 4mm scale stuff you have to pay far more both for kits and rtr. Yes I know that for a given space one needs fewer items of stock, locos or sets of points in O gauge, but individuals tend to want what they do and if your mental shopping list is a dmu, three diesels, four coaches and twenty wagons then the eventual damage will be far greater in the bigger scale. I fully appreciate it's commercial stupidity for a manufacturer not to get a reasonable return on what they make, and I'd guess that the hourly labour rate embedded in the vast majority of products is surprisingly low, but it doesn't alter the fact that for me (even if I felt tempted to go upscale) the price would prohibit purchases.
There seem to be two questions to ask, the first being does O gauge represent good value for money? I think the answer has to be yes if viewed in isolation, but perhaps less so in comparison to some of the other options. The second would be, is O gauge expensive? From my point of view (and income bracket) it can only be yes.
There seem to be two questions to ask, the first being does O gauge represent good value for money? I think the answer has to be yes if viewed in isolation, but perhaps less so in comparison to some of the other options. The second would be, is O gauge expensive? From my point of view (and income bracket) it can only be yes.
28ten
Guv'nor
It is expensive when compared to US HO models but nowhere near so bad in comparison with European outline, so I dont know if is really that expensive :scratch: and In comparison with other interest of mine computing and cycling I would say its about on par with with the former and way cheaper than competitive cycling. Given a budget of say ?1k a year you could enjoy the hobby, the same budget would buy about 1/3 of a bike and none of the consumables needed over a season. Needless to say racing went when I got married and I simply could not afford the costs now.
S
Simon Dunkley
Guest
Look at it another way.
A 7mm model is 1.75 times as long as a 4mm scale one, occupies just over 3 times the area and requires 5.34 times the volume (this is the reason why there is so much more mass and inertia in a 7mm scale model).
So, if 4mm scale is roughly 20% of the cost of 7mm, then they are about equal - ignoring other factors: if a 7mm scale model of comparable quality is less than 5.34 times the price of its 4mm scale equivalent, then it is good value for money. Since height is not usually such a big issue with model railways, then it might be fairer to consider the relationship by area, so any 7mm scale item at about 3 times the cost of its 4mm scale equivalent is comparabel, as you will only need 1/3 of the models to fill the same baseboard area.
One of the other factors is the economy of scale, and here 4mm scale wins hands down: this actually makes 7mm scale comparatively cheap, and perhaps the 5x times ratio would be fairer after all.
However, there are other considerations, one of which is the capacity of any larger scale to accomodate more detail. Some do complain that this means you have to incorporate the visibile detail, to which I can only respond: it's your hobby, do what you like as long as it isn't complaining about the choices you made within it. So, 7mm scale offers scope for a lot more fun if detail is your bag. In which case, it is much better value for money.
Similarly, the smaller the scale the more it becomes possible to look at the impact of trains in the landscape as a modelling theme. To me the attraction of 2mm scale is that it enables this approach - see Totnes for an excellent example which is not actually too large. Were I to work in this scale, I would very much feel the need to produce lots of trains.
If I was mostly interested in operation, then I would use 4mm RTR with a bit of weathering and detailing.
On the other hand, were I modelling 16mm scale narrow gauge in the garden, I would be happy with 2 or 3 coaches, a handful of wagons, a battery loco and a live steamer.
Total cost would be similar, but - and here's the rub - the outlay would come in larger chunks, so careful financial planning (saving up!) would be the order of the day.
And if interested in building G1 or larger live steam, I would invest in a Myford Super 7B lathe and a Wabeco milling machine: possibly slightly higher capital expenditure (if bought new - so buy second hand!) but then I would be mostly buying raw materials with the possible exception of boilers. On the other hand, if I built two of everything, I would be able to sell one to fund the raw materials cost for both!
I think one simply looks at one's disposable income, and spends it or saves it according to the modelling path that appeals the most: trains (small scale), operation (medium scale, i.e. H0 or 00), detail (larger scale) or something esoteric (any scale involving a large element of scratchbuilding!)
The more money you have to throw at the hobby, the more items you will acquire, be that RTR locos/stock, kits accumulating in the cupboard, or tools/materials. The only difference is that one potentially arrives at the chosen destination sooner, and maybe enjoys the journey less as a result (unless you simply enjoy seeing the trains running/operating): I think this is the most important thing to work out - do you enjoy the journey and are therefore a constructor or the destination, and are therefore more of an operator. You can be both, of course, in which case you probably need to get some track down quickly so that you can run trains, then spend time on the scenics, detailing, etc.
That said, there are two types of manufacturer in the hobby:
Part-time suppliers who are supplementing their own needs by making things commercially available (think how Martin Finney started out); and
Full-time manufacturers who do this for a living.
The hobby is ill-served by either of these groups making a loss, but frequently the part-time suppliers unintentionally lower the expectations with respect to price - they do not create and execute business plans (there is no need), and do not adequately cover the cost of development as they are simply producing things which they wanted for themselves, so the time would have been spent anyway. What they have done is reduce the cost of things such as phototools by spreading it over a batch of (say) 40 loco kits rather than the 2 they need for themselves.
Of course, there are some gross generalisations in there, but that's the point of gross generalisations - they give an indication of the general trend, not specifics.
As CJF said about 30 years ago, railway modelling cannot really be executed at no cost [although certain aspects can be], as there are certain essentials that one needs, dor example a power unit, a loco, some track and some stock. However, all of these are available within a standard trainset, usually affordable within a year.
What it costs beyond funding the essentials is entirely up to the individual: you have the money you have, you have the interest(s) you have. Any reasonably intelligent adult should be able to work out how to spend what they have to meet the "demands" of those interests.
The key is to decide what it is you want, and follow it - maybe allowing for the odd distraction along the way - but to focus resources of time and money on that.
To return to the important question.
How much of a constructor are you, and how much an operator?
The cost is immaterial - no point wanting to operate a large 7mm scale layout unless you are wealthy enough to afford to pay people to build it for you, and wealthy enough to be able to house it, too! But building 7mm scale models? Why yes: mostly from scratch if you have little money.
A 7mm model is 1.75 times as long as a 4mm scale one, occupies just over 3 times the area and requires 5.34 times the volume (this is the reason why there is so much more mass and inertia in a 7mm scale model).
So, if 4mm scale is roughly 20% of the cost of 7mm, then they are about equal - ignoring other factors: if a 7mm scale model of comparable quality is less than 5.34 times the price of its 4mm scale equivalent, then it is good value for money. Since height is not usually such a big issue with model railways, then it might be fairer to consider the relationship by area, so any 7mm scale item at about 3 times the cost of its 4mm scale equivalent is comparabel, as you will only need 1/3 of the models to fill the same baseboard area.
One of the other factors is the economy of scale, and here 4mm scale wins hands down: this actually makes 7mm scale comparatively cheap, and perhaps the 5x times ratio would be fairer after all.
However, there are other considerations, one of which is the capacity of any larger scale to accomodate more detail. Some do complain that this means you have to incorporate the visibile detail, to which I can only respond: it's your hobby, do what you like as long as it isn't complaining about the choices you made within it. So, 7mm scale offers scope for a lot more fun if detail is your bag. In which case, it is much better value for money.
Similarly, the smaller the scale the more it becomes possible to look at the impact of trains in the landscape as a modelling theme. To me the attraction of 2mm scale is that it enables this approach - see Totnes for an excellent example which is not actually too large. Were I to work in this scale, I would very much feel the need to produce lots of trains.
If I was mostly interested in operation, then I would use 4mm RTR with a bit of weathering and detailing.
On the other hand, were I modelling 16mm scale narrow gauge in the garden, I would be happy with 2 or 3 coaches, a handful of wagons, a battery loco and a live steamer.
Total cost would be similar, but - and here's the rub - the outlay would come in larger chunks, so careful financial planning (saving up!) would be the order of the day.
And if interested in building G1 or larger live steam, I would invest in a Myford Super 7B lathe and a Wabeco milling machine: possibly slightly higher capital expenditure (if bought new - so buy second hand!) but then I would be mostly buying raw materials with the possible exception of boilers. On the other hand, if I built two of everything, I would be able to sell one to fund the raw materials cost for both!
I think one simply looks at one's disposable income, and spends it or saves it according to the modelling path that appeals the most: trains (small scale), operation (medium scale, i.e. H0 or 00), detail (larger scale) or something esoteric (any scale involving a large element of scratchbuilding!)
The more money you have to throw at the hobby, the more items you will acquire, be that RTR locos/stock, kits accumulating in the cupboard, or tools/materials. The only difference is that one potentially arrives at the chosen destination sooner, and maybe enjoys the journey less as a result (unless you simply enjoy seeing the trains running/operating): I think this is the most important thing to work out - do you enjoy the journey and are therefore a constructor or the destination, and are therefore more of an operator. You can be both, of course, in which case you probably need to get some track down quickly so that you can run trains, then spend time on the scenics, detailing, etc.
That said, there are two types of manufacturer in the hobby:
Part-time suppliers who are supplementing their own needs by making things commercially available (think how Martin Finney started out); and
Full-time manufacturers who do this for a living.
The hobby is ill-served by either of these groups making a loss, but frequently the part-time suppliers unintentionally lower the expectations with respect to price - they do not create and execute business plans (there is no need), and do not adequately cover the cost of development as they are simply producing things which they wanted for themselves, so the time would have been spent anyway. What they have done is reduce the cost of things such as phototools by spreading it over a batch of (say) 40 loco kits rather than the 2 they need for themselves.
Of course, there are some gross generalisations in there, but that's the point of gross generalisations - they give an indication of the general trend, not specifics.
As CJF said about 30 years ago, railway modelling cannot really be executed at no cost [although certain aspects can be], as there are certain essentials that one needs, dor example a power unit, a loco, some track and some stock. However, all of these are available within a standard trainset, usually affordable within a year.
What it costs beyond funding the essentials is entirely up to the individual: you have the money you have, you have the interest(s) you have. Any reasonably intelligent adult should be able to work out how to spend what they have to meet the "demands" of those interests.
The key is to decide what it is you want, and follow it - maybe allowing for the odd distraction along the way - but to focus resources of time and money on that.
To return to the important question.
How much of a constructor are you, and how much an operator?
The cost is immaterial - no point wanting to operate a large 7mm scale layout unless you are wealthy enough to afford to pay people to build it for you, and wealthy enough to be able to house it, too! But building 7mm scale models? Why yes: mostly from scratch if you have little money.
Pugsley
Western Thunderer
It is expensive in some ways, but not in others. Before getting back into modelling, my hobby was Land Rovering and off-roading, in comparison to this, even O gauge is quite reasonable in terms of what I could have spent before!
US HO is a bad comparison IMO - the market is far larger than even the UK OO market and, certainly in terms of diesels, much more standardised in terms of locomotive types whilst the variety of liveries is massive. The budget of ?1K per year may be a bit high for a lot of people, but you're quite right Cynric, you could enjoy O gauge for that amount.
In terms of the wagons mentioned, I also had a look at both at Telford. If you're not bothered about 100% prototype fidelity, then as far as I'm concerned, you can't go wrong with that Cargowaggon for (ISTR) ?45. It's not for me, I'd have to do so much to it to be happy that I'd be better off scratchbuilding my own. It's the same for the Polybulk, but more so in the case of that one 'cos it was nearly double the price! I wouldn't worry about the resin too much, it can wapr, but if you add additional support and bracing when you build, it should be OK.
Personally, whilst I don't think 7mm scale is particularly cheap, I don't think it's obscenely expensive. If I did, I'd have stuck to 4mm scale
US HO is a bad comparison IMO - the market is far larger than even the UK OO market and, certainly in terms of diesels, much more standardised in terms of locomotive types whilst the variety of liveries is massive. The budget of ?1K per year may be a bit high for a lot of people, but you're quite right Cynric, you could enjoy O gauge for that amount.
In terms of the wagons mentioned, I also had a look at both at Telford. If you're not bothered about 100% prototype fidelity, then as far as I'm concerned, you can't go wrong with that Cargowaggon for (ISTR) ?45. It's not for me, I'd have to do so much to it to be happy that I'd be better off scratchbuilding my own. It's the same for the Polybulk, but more so in the case of that one 'cos it was nearly double the price! I wouldn't worry about the resin too much, it can wapr, but if you add additional support and bracing when you build, it should be OK.
Personally, whilst I don't think 7mm scale is particularly cheap, I don't think it's obscenely expensive. If I did, I'd have stuck to 4mm scale
marsa69
Western Thunderer
Why do I get the feeling that this was an ad! :shock: hahahahahahaha
I think 'O' gauge IS expensive.......but that is because I have a limited amount of disposable income. When I first got back into modelling I had a higher amount of disposable income and 'O' gauge didn't seem that expensive then. To use Simons analogy I am an operator and a modeller. I want to run trains AND build kits. My own limited skillset means that I will only ever build a reasonable model to display. But as long as I'm happy with it then 'job done'. Of course, I will always try to look for a bargain but I do this in real life as well, I think we all do. At the end of the day something is only worth what you are prepared to pay and as long as you get enjoyment from it then everyones a winner
regards,
Mark
S
Simon Dunkley
Guest
[/quote:19rd1ybf]marsa69 said:Why do I get the feeling that this was an ad! :shock: hahahahahahaha
Humph.
If it was meant to be, I would have had the decency to say so.
It wasn't - that post was too long to be effective for such a purpose.
[quote:19rd1ybf]
I think 'O' gauge IS expensive.......but that is because I have a limited amount of disposable income. When I first got back into modelling I had a higher amount of disposable income and 'O' gauge didn't seem that expensive then. To use Simons analogy I am an operator and a modeller. I want to run trains AND build kits. My own limited skillset means that I will only ever build a reasonable model to display. But as long as I'm happy with it then 'job done'. Of course, I will always try to look for a bargain but I do this in real life as well, I think we all do. At the end of the day something is only worth what you are prepared to pay and as long as you get enjoyment from it then everyones a winner
My point was that per item the cost for 0 gauge might appear higher, but when you take into account the greater volume, the greater detail, and the requirement for a lot less stock, it represents exceptional value for money, and is not that expensive spread over a few years: it's just that if you spend, say, ?400 on 00 rolling stock, you come home with quite a lot. In 7mm scale, quite a lot less, and in One32, you can buy a brass coach (for now) but nothing else!
PS - As this posting is shorter, the SL is as yet untaken.
28ten
Guv'nor
to put it into another contest, I had a flyer for a 'Charlie and Lola' show at the local theatre and for the four of us to go to an hour and a half long show would have cost ?40 :shock: - needless to say we are not going !!
back to the OP :laugh: it is expensive, but its relative to what you can afford or are willing to spend. Im sure the chap I saw at Telford walking off with a Loveless A4 and a dozen coaches thinks its expensive, but he is willing/able to afford, to spend that much money, I simply cant. I think converting to DCC is expensive, but I will do it at some point.
Another thought, if you told the man in the street you had bought a model loco for ?200 he would say it was expensive , yet I you said you had an iphone, he probably wouldn't bat an eyelid.
back to the OP :laugh: it is expensive, but its relative to what you can afford or are willing to spend. Im sure the chap I saw at Telford walking off with a Loveless A4 and a dozen coaches thinks its expensive, but he is willing/able to afford, to spend that much money, I simply cant. I think converting to DCC is expensive, but I will do it at some point.
Another thought, if you told the man in the street you had bought a model loco for ?200 he would say it was expensive , yet I you said you had an iphone, he probably wouldn't bat an eyelid.
bogusman
Western Thunderer
I must admit that 7mm is expensive compared to 4mm but to put it in to context it still seems desirable (this from a P4 man) as I have seen from JLTRT and some other manufactures some of their locos seem reasonably priced for what you get (quality of etches, castings etc). No doubt in 7mm as in 4mm there are some kits that are below the standard that we expect nowadays and are overpriced for what they are but at the end of the day the choice is strictly down to the modeller to decide what he can afford.
For my own modelling criteria I have laid down certain must haves and I am afraid that 7mm does not fulfill the main one (space) as I want to run mainline trains.This has not stopped me buying 7mm but the loco I have bought will be a display model in scale seven when it is completed. As my father use to say "you only get what you pay for" and this seems to be true in our hobby. At the end of the day if you enjoy what you are doing in any hobby does cost matter as long as you get fulfillment from it.
Regards
Pete
For my own modelling criteria I have laid down certain must haves and I am afraid that 7mm does not fulfill the main one (space) as I want to run mainline trains.This has not stopped me buying 7mm but the loco I have bought will be a display model in scale seven when it is completed. As my father use to say "you only get what you pay for" and this seems to be true in our hobby. At the end of the day if you enjoy what you are doing in any hobby does cost matter as long as you get fulfillment from it.
Regards
Pete
Jordan
Mid-Western Thunderer
28ten said:... just as Jordan and DJP were getting down to the nitty gritty of discussing the cost (or not) of O gauge ....
Just remember, play nicely and that there are two sides to this discussion.
I always seem to be getting into nitty-gritty-type 'discussions' with DJP... Blimey where to start eh?
Well firstly for the two wagons I mentioned I'd only be wanting a couple of each at the most; there doesn't seem much point in saying what I'd like to pay as that is just my own opinion and not based on any commercial reality...
Obviously there are comments in this thread that stem from my other "Temptation" thread as well, also bemoaning the cost of O scale
which I feel must inevitably lead one or two of you to lose patience and just tell me I'm modelling in the wrong scale, clear off and join the Great Unwashed...I know US HO is perhaps the worst scale to compare British O to; I actually got into O scale first in US outline, because it is much cheaper than British O; and I freely admit that this, too, doesn't help my viewpoint. I actually got into O because my US outline modelling had started in N scale; at the time British N scale was just awful, so because I wanted to run both US & UK models, but hadn't the room for more than one layout, I moved up to US HO so I could also run British OO stock. However after a few years I found HO a bit dis-satisfying; it needed the details N scale didn't, but they were still very tiny. I also wanted to use scale 3-link couplings on UK stock - having tried that in 4mm years ago I knew how frustrating that was, so thought O scale would be best for that. So here I am; I think I'm more of a "Detailer" than out-and-out Kit builder; that's the legacy of years ago detailing up Hornby & Lima OO diesels. In US O scale I can carry that on; a current project is to make a GP40, which has meant a certain amount of 'kit-bashing' of other models as a GP40 is not currently made, and I am thoroughly enjoying it.
On the other point often raised; "you don't need so many models in O scale for the space available" I'm sure that sounds a perfectly logical arguement; but since when did logic ever come into what we want in model railways..?? For example, it's usually agreed that most people's collections are usually very loco-centric, since they are the main attraction, and our collections of coaches and wagons are less proportionately representative than on the real railways... I'm not sure I agree that one will, by definition, have less models as an O scaler than an N or OO modeller. For myself, in N scale I had 8 Soo Line engines. Now I have 7 Soo Line engines in O scale, some of them are the same types as I had in N...make of that what you will, especially since the actual space I have available for a layout now is less than when I was doing N scale...
:scratch: Maybe I should just stick to US outline
Jordan
Mid-Western Thunderer
As further thought to this, I also recognise that my costs in US outline have also been even lower as almost all of my stock was purchased second-hand - even though in many cases this was in 'mint/boxed' condition. Which leads me to the situation with second-hand stock in British outline, which very often doesn't seem to follow the "normal" rules of 'Second Hand' pricing at all... I'm not sure why? It can take some canny shopping to get a real bargain. For instance when about 6 Lima Toads were on Ebay all at once, I waited for the very last one, and got it at about ?8; the lowest price of them all. At the moment there's a 'mint/boxed' one (as mine was) on offer at Buy It Now for 1p short of ?60..!!! Mindyou, I think everyone else sees that as a ridiculous price too, as it's not sold... :lol: :lol:
Anyway, just to show that I can see the other side of the arguement in some ways, I'll take the examples of the two O scale kits I have. My Class 22 was ?300 inc. wheels/motors/gears, all new. When Dapol release their 4mm version soon I think the going rate will be a tad over the ?100 mark (non-DCC)?? So mine was three times the cost. Not that bad I suppose. My Class 14 I bought second-hand from Ross of this Parish; I shan't disclose the sum, but let's just call it a Bargain and say that it compares well to a Heljan/Hattons 4mm scale Class 14, again just over the ?100 mark.
Now, a Hornby Class 31 is what, about ?80 (Hattons). Assuming Heljan do bring a 7mm one out, the (Tower) price is likely to be close to the Deltic; ?475. Around five times as much. The Skytrex one is the same :shock: (with two motors)... I know which one I'd prefer!! However, the MMP kit is ?200; if wheels/motors/gears add roughly another ?100 we are looking at a saving of at least ?150 over the RTR ones, and still looking at not much over three times the cost of the Hornby... that's much better, and from that standpoint I can see where David is coming from. Just the question of time taken to build the kit, but that's not the issue here.
If you think I'm going around in circles, or shooting down my own arguements....
... I think you're right.... :vista:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Anyway, just to show that I can see the other side of the arguement in some ways, I'll take the examples of the two O scale kits I have. My Class 22 was ?300 inc. wheels/motors/gears, all new. When Dapol release their 4mm version soon I think the going rate will be a tad over the ?100 mark (non-DCC)?? So mine was three times the cost. Not that bad I suppose. My Class 14 I bought second-hand from Ross of this Parish; I shan't disclose the sum, but let's just call it a Bargain and say that it compares well to a Heljan/Hattons 4mm scale Class 14, again just over the ?100 mark.
Now, a Hornby Class 31 is what, about ?80 (Hattons). Assuming Heljan do bring a 7mm one out, the (Tower) price is likely to be close to the Deltic; ?475. Around five times as much. The Skytrex one is the same :shock: (with two motors)... I know which one I'd prefer!! However, the MMP kit is ?200; if wheels/motors/gears add roughly another ?100 we are looking at a saving of at least ?150 over the RTR ones, and still looking at not much over three times the cost of the Hornby... that's much better, and from that standpoint I can see where David is coming from. Just the question of time taken to build the kit, but that's not the issue here.
If you think I'm going around in circles, or shooting down my own arguements....
... I think you're right....
:vista: :lol: :lol: :lol:
28ten
Guv'nor
I do agreeJordan said:On the other point often raised; "you don't need so many models in O scale for the space available" I'm sure that sounds a perfectly logical arguement; but since when did logic ever come into what we want in model railways..?? For example, it's usually agreed that most people's collections are usually very loco-centric, since they are the main attraction, and our collections of coaches and wagons are less proportionately representative than on the real railways... I'm not sure I agree that one will, by definition, have less models as an O scaler than an N or OO modeller. For myself, in N scale I had 8 Soo Line engines. Now I have 7 Soo Line engines in O scale, some of them are the same types as I had in N...make of that what you will, especially since the actual space I have available for a layout now is less than when I was doing N scale...
Maybe I should just stick to US outline
I think deep down we all have a secret desire for a model of Reading general/Crewe or wherever no matter what scale we work in. Whilst you are going round in circles, I can sympathise as I have done the same over the last few months. maybe its a mid-life crisis? :shock: :scratch:
I have been following this thread and I can agree with most of the comments made.
Since I moved into Gauge 1 it appears I am trying to make myself bankrupt much to my wifes dismay. I agree with Jordan regarding logic going out the door. One of my arguments when I first went large was that I only wanted a few items of stock, this soon went out of the window when I discovered what was available. One of my impulse buys was a Flying Scotsman ( to run on a 11'6 layout ) still I enjoy looking at it. The main problem is justifying the expence to SHMBO, I have suggested that her few cigarettes cost as much as a loco or it is a good future inheritance. In reality a few years ago I could have bought a Ducati for a simular outlay.
When I consider the amount of materials and labour in these models I think they represent value for money.
For Jordan I admit I keep looking at Gauge 1 SD40-2s and SD45s and dream.
In the end I just enjoy my trains.
Since I moved into Gauge 1 it appears I am trying to make myself bankrupt much to my wifes dismay. I agree with Jordan regarding logic going out the door. One of my arguments when I first went large was that I only wanted a few items of stock, this soon went out of the window when I discovered what was available. One of my impulse buys was a Flying Scotsman ( to run on a 11'6 layout
) still I enjoy looking at it. The main problem is justifying the expence to SHMBO, I have suggested that her few cigarettes cost as much as a loco or it is a good future inheritance. In reality a few years ago I could have bought a Ducati for a simular outlay.When I consider the amount of materials and labour in these models I think they represent value for money.
For Jordan I admit I keep looking at Gauge 1 SD40-2s and SD45s and dream.
In the end I just enjoy my trains.
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Gosh!
This is an impossible topic/question. Every hobby will attract people from across the spectrum, from those who don't really have the resources to indulge, but are passionate about their hobby, through those who are doers (in our case active builders) to those who are buyers (either because they can't build or don't have the time). There can be no one size fits all solution, only personal perspectives, coming from each person's wealth, status, job.
My own opinion is that our attitudes to model prices have been badly skewed over the years by the historic cottage nature of the 7mm industry, where traditionally it was modellers looking for extra 'top-up' money in addition to their main source of income that provided the sources of products. We rely on people being in it for the love of it, not because they have made a hard-nosed decision to go into model railways as a source of wealth creation.
My bug-bear is the cost of commissioned models. There are very few people indeed who are prepared to pay what it really costs for a first class model - and here I'm talking something like ?2-?3k for a tank loco, and ?5-?6k for a big tender loco. That's for builders who want to earn a decent living building quality products, not those looking to earn extra cash knocking them out in the evenings - and I'm not critisising here, it's just a question of commercial viability.
As far as I am concerned quality kits are cheap, even at ?600 plus. It enables me to build a model, using them as a starting point, that I would not have dreamed I would have been capable of 20 years ago. My motivation is to test myself, to try to do the absolute best I can, every time a little better, and I am extremely grateful that others have put in the time to enable me to do so. I don't begrudge them a penny, for without them I would not derive the satisfaction I do from this glorious hobby. And if they don't charge a commercial price, they won't be back with another kit next year.
What I really object to is rubbish kits, at whatever price, but that's a whole new garden-full of worms.
Final thought, every hobby has it's top end costs - angling, photography, music, Hi-Fi, computing. It's all about how you value your hobby. Quick example. I play the piano - pretty well. To advance further, I need a better piano, and I'm looking at ?25K for a better one than my current monster. In fact, I'm not looking as I can't afford to, so I'll stick to my cheap second hobby of 7mm finescale.
Dons helmet and ducks behind parapet.
Cheers
Richard
This is an impossible topic/question. Every hobby will attract people from across the spectrum, from those who don't really have the resources to indulge, but are passionate about their hobby, through those who are doers (in our case active builders) to those who are buyers (either because they can't build or don't have the time). There can be no one size fits all solution, only personal perspectives, coming from each person's wealth, status, job.
My own opinion is that our attitudes to model prices have been badly skewed over the years by the historic cottage nature of the 7mm industry, where traditionally it was modellers looking for extra 'top-up' money in addition to their main source of income that provided the sources of products. We rely on people being in it for the love of it, not because they have made a hard-nosed decision to go into model railways as a source of wealth creation.
My bug-bear is the cost of commissioned models. There are very few people indeed who are prepared to pay what it really costs for a first class model - and here I'm talking something like ?2-?3k for a tank loco, and ?5-?6k for a big tender loco. That's for builders who want to earn a decent living building quality products, not those looking to earn extra cash knocking them out in the evenings - and I'm not critisising here, it's just a question of commercial viability.
As far as I am concerned quality kits are cheap, even at ?600 plus. It enables me to build a model, using them as a starting point, that I would not have dreamed I would have been capable of 20 years ago. My motivation is to test myself, to try to do the absolute best I can, every time a little better, and I am extremely grateful that others have put in the time to enable me to do so. I don't begrudge them a penny, for without them I would not derive the satisfaction I do from this glorious hobby. And if they don't charge a commercial price, they won't be back with another kit next year.
What I really object to is rubbish kits, at whatever price, but that's a whole new garden-full of worms.
Final thought, every hobby has it's top end costs - angling, photography, music, Hi-Fi, computing. It's all about how you value your hobby. Quick example. I play the piano - pretty well. To advance further, I need a better piano, and I'm looking at ?25K for a better one than my current monster. In fact, I'm not looking as I can't afford to, so I'll stick to my cheap second hobby of 7mm finescale.
Dons helmet and ducks behind parapet.
Cheers
Richard
Jordan
Mid-Western Thunderer
This is a very interesting topic / read. For what its worth I think its not about cheap or expensive its about what you are prepared to justify to yourself and the domestic authorities. As my Dad recently posted on his blog
Guess we've all been here in modelling after buying a kit
The price you actually paid
The price you tell your wife you paid
The price she gets you to admit you paid
The price you pay when she finds out what you actually paid.
I've tried several scales, N, OO, On30 and G and I find them all expensive to me, unless I build myself.
By comparison I have an OO DCC sound 37 which I think was expensive at ?140 whereas my scratchbuilt class 20 stands me at about ?30 at the moment. At this point in my life with other commitments the larger ?30 loco is much easier to justify and therefore I am happy to overlook the shortfalls in my modelling.
I also agree with the comments about small business having to price not as a back room hobby. Last year I did a couple of models as commissions but found it hard to get people to part with what I thought was a reasonable hourly rate. In the end I decided it was better to stick to building in 1:1 as my source of income. But I guess that the people I sold to had there own thresholds of what they could justify.
This statement doesn't mean I think a JLTRT kit is expensive it means its more than I can justify paying.
Guess we've all been here in modelling after buying a kit
The price you actually paid
The price you tell your wife you paid
The price she gets you to admit you paid
The price you pay when she finds out what you actually paid.
I've tried several scales, N, OO, On30 and G and I find them all expensive to me, unless I build myself.
By comparison I have an OO DCC sound 37 which I think was expensive at ?140 whereas my scratchbuilt class 20 stands me at about ?30 at the moment. At this point in my life with other commitments the larger ?30 loco is much easier to justify and therefore I am happy to overlook the shortfalls in my modelling.
I also agree with the comments about small business having to price not as a back room hobby. Last year I did a couple of models as commissions but found it hard to get people to part with what I thought was a reasonable hourly rate. In the end I decided it was better to stick to building in 1:1 as my source of income. But I guess that the people I sold to had there own thresholds of what they could justify.
This statement doesn't mean I think a JLTRT kit is expensive it means its more than I can justify paying.
makhis
Western Thunderer
I guess from a purely manufactures stand point, it would be what can the market stand, can I produce it and make a profit at that price? Yes, then I will market it. No, it just doesnt get produced. In the modellers case, can I afford it? Do I really want it? Answers on a postcard.
Mike
Mike
S
Simon Dunkley
Guest
I can happily say that I have absolutely no desire for such a thing: I much prefer backwaters, but even a decent model of a mineral line, such as the Blodwell branch, requires space if it is to capture the feel of the real thing/place. But I don't need much stock.28ten said:I do agree
Neil Rushby of this parish is showing something similar with Morfa, although he has told me that was because the space was available - he didn't go looking for it.
Whilst you are going round in circles, I can sympathise as I have done the same over the last few months. maybe its a mid-life crisis? :shock: :scratch:
I wish I could go round in circles, but the room is not really long enough with respect to the width, and not really wide enough with respect to my preferred scales...
There has been some coverage in the press over the idea that we (human beings, not just homo ferro-equus) have difficulty coping with too much choice, and being presented with too many options makes us listless and ultimately depressed.
Moral? No idea.
Find an obscure prototype and/or scale, and have to make everything yourself might be one.
Invest in tools, raw materials and the time to learn how to combine them is another.
Decide what you want to achieve, and blinker yourself to other options is a third. I know people who have done this, and they have accomplished a lot and are very happy.
I lack such devotion and flit around from one idea to another, and often feel unhappy that nothing has moved forward.
There is no complete solution for most of us: this is a past time, and providing it doesn't put one into debt, it is there to be enjoyed. No point pining for what you cannot afford - either find a way to afford it, how to make it yourself, or choose something different and be happy with whichever of those 3 options you take: the alternative is misery and poverty of aspiration.
Jordan
Mid-Western Thunderer
Just re-reading this thread and realised that I didn't even mention JLTRT here... not just because of the obvious inconvenience that they don't do a Class 31, but also I must now consider them so far beyond my means as to have dropped completely off my radar, so to speak... anyway assuming they did a 31 it'd be ?462 like all their other kits, plus motors/gears/wheels blah blah blah so being the most expensive option of them all and surely approaching six times the cost of a Hornby 31.Jordan said:
The wierd thing is, that I would've thought (in my own utterly un-informed way, of course) that the prices of JLTRT and MMP would be the other way around. Somehow it just seems slightly strange that a 'plastic' kit is more expensive than a brass one. It must stem from the 4mm mindset again, where brass kits are the most expensive way to obtain a model...
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