Phill Dyson
Western Thunderer
HMRS transfers are much better value than some of the tiny waterslide sheets available IMO, when you can need 4 or five waterslide sheet types for one project the price can get a bit silly :scratch:
Cost of the hobby
- Thread starter 28ten
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Phill Dyson
Western Thunderer
If you do the same era all the time though you tend to use the whole lot more or less, I find the 'HMRS BR Blue Era Loco & Coach' sheet very useful & I would need a lot of individual Fox sheets to do the same number of models..........I'm not saying they are a bargain though (what is in O gauge) :vista:28ten said:
Phill ;D
Phill Dyson
Western Thunderer
28ten said:
Good idea
iploffy
OC Blue Brigade
Again even if I agree with Simon's logic I still dont understand why the transfers are so expensive if I got an airfix kit a fairly large one and looked at the size of the transfer sheet it contained are you telling me that that sheet cost at least ?15 to produce, there are far more colours on a decal sheet destined for a second world war bomber.
Ian
Ian
adrian
Flying Squad
I think with the Airfix kit it is a question of volume of sales, even to some extent with the 4mm vs 7mm difference as well. The increased price for the 7mm may not just be because of the size of the sheet but the fact that they're probably a slow selling item. If there is a minimum print run then your 7mm stock is likely to stay on the shelf longer than the 4mm stuff. Putting the price up just means you can break even with fewer sheets sold.iploffy said:
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Simon Dunkley
Guest
Yep. I was trying to keep things simple.adrian said:
I do not know the costs of production for these transfers, but let's look at a general concept.
If it costs me ?50 to produce something, but cost me ?500 to do the research and development, then if I sell at ?75, I will make ?25 per sale on which to recover the development costs - or 20 sales. If this product is going to be sold by retailers, then they have their costs to cover and will not be happy if I sell at less than the recommended price, so let's add on another ?25.
Ah, but the retailer may buy ten items from me, which will cost him ?750 and he hasn't sold anything yet. His accountant will want to see him sell that stock over a reasonably short period of time (ideally, in less than a year) but in actual fact, unless demand is high, the retailer is going to be very, very lucky to sell the 8 he needs to sell and get his money back with very little "profit".
Maybe there is demand for 200 sales: quite a lot in 0 gauge terms. Now I can bring my price down to ?52.50, and the retail price only needs to be ?77.50 to generate the same monetary amount for the retailer - he still needs to sell 8 to get his money back, though.
Out of this "profit" he must pay his rental, his business rates, his taxes, his pension scheme and himself a salary. In all honesty, he will not make much of a living from selling bits: he needs to sell ready-to-run to generate a living wage, but he cannot afford to reduce his margins to compete with the major box-shifters, so he is reliant on local trade: to encourage this, he offers a great after-sales service, even where people did not make their initial purchase from him.
Sadly, he also sells glossy advertising material which also contains a certain amount of information on how to actually go about modelling slipped in between the adverts. Customers start buying the magazines, and see that they can buy the lovely locos he has on display for 20% less than he charges, which would leave him with a very narrow margin (say 5% of RRP) and he would need to sell 5 times as many over any given period of time to simply get the same income. On top of this, some of his customers go to a local club, and some go on-line. A big topic nowadays is how much things cost, and how one can shop around and get real bargains on the Web, or indeed via the adverts in some of the glossy monthly periodicals. This is great: people buy things on-line and if they get their order in early enough, a parcel gets delivered the next day. Not only that, but locos are re-issued with new liveries and new numbers in limited runs which are sold as being collectible, so who knows, with time, then maybe that favourite loco, 39 068 in Loadrail livery may yet be produced? Incidentally, the shop owner used to be an active member of the club, but he stopped coming regularly as so few railway modellers understood that he had to make a living and he got fed up with the pointless arguments and complaints over his costs.
Then one day the modeller realises that his chosen loco will not be produced and he decides that he wants to add some details and re-paint and renumber his class 39, so he pops into town to visit his local model shop, to find it is closed and has become a fast food outlet.
He wonders why the local retailer closed, and realises he hasn't seen him at the club for some time.
The manufacturer, devoid of regular orders from local model shops, centralises his sales so that they are mail order only, but the big increase in RTR quality and livery/number variations means that demand is limited, so he has to put up his prices.
Meanwhile, instead of buying products, people start swapping unused items - very ecological, this - but demand is further depressed, prices go up further and eventually the manufacturer ceases production. He would have sold the business, but the returns were too low and he couldn't find a buyer, so everything was lost.
iploffy
OC Blue Brigade
As I said before I understand Market forces and retail mark up and profit and loss I understand it's about making a living but HMRS is a registered charity and as such is not bound rigidly by any of the aforementioned Living ideals it even offers a discount to society members. I am not getting at any specific retailer and no offence is meant to any specific retailer I raised the question because if I join their charity I get a discount however much that may be why not charge less in these circumstances and encourage more people to buy.
You pays your money and you get your goods even though I dont want lining from the early 1950-late 60's I am going to have to buy it to get the white I need
once again no offence to anyone and if it does offend anyone Cynric please remove.
Ian
You pays your money and you get your goods even though I dont want lining from the early 1950-late 60's I am going to have to buy it to get the white I need
once again no offence to anyone and if it does offend anyone Cynric please remove.
Ian
28ten
Guv'nor
I fully understand your point Simon, and nobody is a greater advocate than me of supporting the small traders, but the development costs have been recouped years ago and the transfer range is a cash cow, even at a tenner a pop they would still be making a very healthy profit. In many ways it comes down to Phills point, that if the whole sheet is useful then its not too bad but if you only want a couple of items then its a poor deal. Its not the first time I have heard this issue raised about the HMRS sheets, I have even hears a 4mm modeller complaining about the wastage......
BTW Ian if it was me I would get the bow pen out! ;D
BTW Ian if it was me I would get the bow pen out! ;D
Phill Dyson
Western Thunderer
If your talking about HMRS lining, it does come in blue era white lines only as does Fox liningiploffy said:
iploffy
OC Blue Brigade
Pulled this off their website a full list of their products
http://www.hmrs.org.uk/transfers/list.php
Ian
http://www.hmrs.org.uk/transfers/list.php
Ian
Phill Dyson
Western Thunderer
I will have a look at my sheet over the weekend & see if it has a reference number on itiploffy said:
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Simon Dunkley
Guest
I have no idea how much it does cost them, to be honest - although I do suspect it is less than that charged. However, I have picked up some of their books, from their stand, at low prices at exhibitions.28ten said:
If you know how much it costs to produce a sheet that size, then please tell us.
Yes, but if I was a retailer, I would probably prefer to store single sheets than lots of little ones.
Mention has been made of HMRS' charitable status in this thread. What of it?
It recognises that they provide an educational service (which is a plus point when arguing with people who think toy trains are a waste of time) and get some tax benefits as a result. This is not something which is easy to achieve, but part of the proof of their commitment is the production of books, etc.
It does not mean that they are supposed to be charitable to us: they need to raise funds.
If they can do that by charging more for their sheets, and still sell them, then good luck to them.
If people want to arrange swaps, then good luck to them. If this means that as a consequence sales drop and the range disappears, then don't complain.
I don't want to be difficult, but this thread is entirely sterile: it will not cause any manufacturer to cut his prices, and it has been characterised by cant and speculation without supporting facts. Getting the price right isn't easy at the best of times, and some things will cost more than it might appear they should, and others may cost less. And these are not the best of times, especially for the small and specialists traders - the kind who are likely to have stocks of HMRS transfers.
Ah, now that is said...
Quite simply, it's a hobby: it should cost no more than you can afford to spend on it - any other path is simply ludicrous.
How you spend that money is entirely up to you - it's a hobby.
If you have beer money, buy beer. If you have champagne money but prefer beer, buy beer. If you like beer and have little money, make your own beer.
If you have champagne tastes and beer money, then you will be thirsty most of the time, or you need to alter your tastes.
Me? I think too much and drink too little...
Jordan
Mid-Western Thunderer
I don't think it was started with that intent... :scratch:Simon Dunkley said:
I like that analogy. I'd do it in car terms; I'd like a brand new Porsche, but there's no way I could afford it. To afford to run a half-way decent car, I had to have a loan, otherwise I'd only be able to run a clapped-out banger. If the only choice available to me was clapped out Bangers and Supercars, I'd run the banger and not bother about it.
Now, in O scale terms, let's say all the prices were in the Loveless/Golden Age price range; they're waaaay beyond my means and if that was all that's available I'd forget it and stick to OO. However, it's the fact there's stuff available that is perhaps just beyond my means (or as another has said, difficult to justify the price) that is so frustrating.
Transfers are a good case concerning costs; Cambridge Custom Transfers produce a sheet with the numbers of every Class 14 on it which in O scale is ?18. Now I'm not arguing with that price for that amount of transfers, but as I only want one set of numbers, ?18 is a hell of a lot. Someone said "sell the others on"... I replied I wasn't sure I even knew 55 other O scale modellers, (I may do now this Forum is here!!) and how many of them would want Class 14 numbers anyway??? If CCT had produced a smaller sheet, with enough numbers on for, say, ten locos, for maybe ?5 or ?6 (a higher pro rata charge), then I'd likely bite the bullet and buy a sheet. CCT would have my money, and I'd have excess numbers. As it is CCT will not have any money from me, and I haven't got any numbers, so we've both lost out...
Phill Dyson
Western Thunderer
Not much chance of that I would have thought with two or three people on here swapping the odd transfer :Simon Dunkley said:
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Simon Dunkley
Guest
That is interesting. Why can they not produce a sheet with the D95 bit on it, then two of each number 0-9, all times two, of course. I suppose it could extended to have D950, D951, etc, with just the last number to be added.Jordan said:
Presumably modellers have requested having complete numbers, lacking the patience to do it in three hits?
As you say, who would want to build all class 14s built - or could afford to?
It is a shame that you have lost out: I presume CCT have their reasons - possibly that most people pay up for the full sheet - but it does seem excessive to have all the numbers like that.
I can understand why he wouldn't want to sell each pair for every loco separately - the time involved would be horrendous.
Nothing to worry about, then, is there?Phill Dyson said:Not much chance of that I would have thought with two or three people on here swapping the odd transfer :
28ten
Guv'nor
Some of the later comments remind me of a conversation I had (in my previous existence) with a well known F1 driver, where I was commenting on the cost of running an E type and someone else chimed in about the cost of running a private jet, and our driver friend said 'Jets are cheap, you should try keeping a yacht in Monaco for a year...........'
Thank you to everyone for having a constructive debate, I think we have reached a natural conclusion here., so I will close the thread.
Thank you to everyone for having a constructive debate, I think we have reached a natural conclusion here., so I will close the thread.
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