Does Anyone Know Where or When?

[oldravendale]

Thanks Mick.

The date window for the diesel/8F photo is a great help. Your comments make sense, although the occasional well maintained steam loco could be seen at the very end - having said which this rarely applied to the 8Fs!

As for the D11 - well, assuming that it is 62663, and I can't be certain about that, it's last Shed was Staveley GC 1958 - 60, before that Sheffield Darnall in 1957 before which it was at Lincoln 1954. I'm not sure whether that's relevant or not!

B

 

[oldravendale]

Good point, Steph. However, it doesn't look exceptionally clean and usually locos on railtours received special attention. That doesn't make your comment any less valid!

B

 

[mickoo]

Oddly enough my first reaction was SR it has that feel about it, but I doubt it is. I've just also noticed the first coach has what looks like roof destination boards and it looks like its in carmine and cream livery.

MD

 

[Neil]

I'd suggest that the novelty piercing photo is taken on ex-LNER lines; the concrete sectional hut to the left of the photo looks like the standard LNER version and the vans in the background with the sliding doors again look LNER-ish to my eyes.

 

[Steph Dale]

Neil,
Yep, I agree with you about the hut.

The wagons, which I had spotted, are slightly less help; the Southern had a stack of vans loaned from LNER and BR(E) throughout the BR period and somewhat earlier too.

Steph

 

[Obblygobbly]

Grimsby had a bridge like that - not sure of the exact location though.

 

[mickoo]

Top man, boy is that a scene changed out of all recognition, but the bridge still stands, the road is Humber Bridge Road.

Aerial shots; Bing Maps.



Closer


Street scenes; Google Street view.



The train would be to the left behind the trees.

The train is heading toward Cleethorpes which makes sense on two counts, a: the engine is shut off which I couldn't grasp if it was leaving a station and assumed it was arriving, b: Brian has already posted shots from this area so probably from the same photographer / period.

Looks like even the lamp stands still exist.

MD

 

[FiftyFourA]

Sherlock himself couldn't have done it better or faster. If I wore a hat I would take it off to you guys

Peter

 

[Steph Dale]

Sherlock himself couldn't have done it better or faster. If I wore a hat I would take it off to you guys

Peter

I do, and I did!

Steph

 

[mickoo]

Sherlock himself couldn't have done it better or faster. If I wore a hat I would take it off to you guys

Peter

All credit to Obblygobbly for getting the right town, I just flew around in Bing following the lines until I found the bridge.

MD

 

[oldravendale]

That's an amazing bit of detective work, particularly as the changes are so extreme from a complicated track layout to a single line. Once again the price of "progress" - deliberately in " this time, because there may be some regret in retrospect at tearing up so much infrastructure. Thank you so much Obblygobbly for putting Mickoo on the scent. Once you give him a clue.......

Both Stavely and Sheffield Darnall sheds would have been within relatively easy reach of Grmsby, so it's difficult to use this as a guide to date, although Darnall had quite a few D11s, including Prince Albert if that is what this loco is. The relatively local presence of D11s is yet another confirmation of location.

That's another to add to the tick off list. You are quite correct, Mick, this photo is from the same collection as previously so likely to be in approximately the same geographic area.

Thanks to you both.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

For a change I think I know where these are - certainly the first, which is at Retford, confirmed by the running in board to the right of the loco. I suspect that both photos were taken on the same day and I'm particularly fond of the second one. So the questions are:

Is the loco on the Pullman coaches an A3, is there agreement that the train is the Queen of Scots? Is it in the up or down direction? I believe the loco to be 60038 but there is a little blurring which makes this difficult to confirm. I'm not familiar with Retford, so are there any changes which would allow some view on a likely date?

For the second my ignorance will really show. However, initially is there agreement that there are sufficient similarities between the two photos to identify the second photo as Retford as well? Then, I'm not sure of the loco class - could it be an 02? Finally, the tenders, (which is what makes this photo so different and evocative for me) which I assume to probably be sludge tenders. Is there anything which allows identification of these?




As ever, all and every comment will be appreciated.

Brian

 

[PMP]

Second picture definitely Retford, may I share these with Roy Jackson as in EM Retford? he'd love to see them, and may be able to help with caption. Pretty sure the A3 is on the 'down' lines and the second pic is an 02
brgds

 

[Rob Pulham]

Hi Brian,

I would agree that they are both the same location looking at the Station master sign, the distinctive building in the background and the bracket signal.

I am not sure that the loco is long enough to be an 02 but it might be the angle of the photo alternately perhaps it might be a K? Sorry I can't begin to speculate on the tenders.

 

[mickoo]

Both shots are Retford.

The Pullman is indeed headed by an A3 but unlikely (by loco choice) to be the Queen of Scots as that was a regular diagram for A1's, it could be the White Rose (but that passes Retford earlier in the day), however there is a head board on the buffer beam and if you can zoom into that it might help, it's certainly a double liner so could be 'The Queen of Scots' and the A3 may be a stand in engine as south of Leeds it was almost always a A1, A3 were provided for the northern legs from Heaton or Neville Hill.

The A3 tender is a 1930 high sided beaded tender with straight front ends, it can't be a 1928 one as no A3 was coupled to one of those after 1941. There's only twenty two of them so pretty easy to work out a list of possible engines from 1950-1960, 60038 being one of them, but #38 was always a NE based and switching between Darlington and Gateshead during the 50's, neither of which supplied engines for 'The Queen of Scots' so it may be a stand in engine for a failed A1 from goodness knows where.

Other choices are 60053, 60060, 60064, 60067, 60070, 60072, 60077, 60085, 60087, 60091, 60092, 60099, 60100, 60101, 60111.

It's a streamlined dome boiler and I can't quite make out if the fire box wash out plugs are straight or angled, if angled then it'll be a 107 A4 boiler which will narrow the search a lot.

The train is on the Down Fast and heading North and given the high angle of the sun probably two but no later than four O'clock in the afternoon.

Both photos are taken on the same day, note wicker basket and bicycles along the wall, though the trolley seems to have moved a bit, no idea on the second engine, hundreds of them some only vary in roof gutter strips! Almost certainly an 02 but it's got a Gresley cab so could be one of the rebuilds or later builds.

The coaches are carmine and cream suggesting mid fifties as a date, certainly no later than 58 or 59 when all A3 were fitted with double chimneys.

MD

 

[oldravendale]

Great stuff again, chaps. I've taken a bite out of the original un-Photoshopped neg (fortunately large format) to give a (perhaps) better shot at reading the number and train name. I've also lifted it a bit and added in some contrast - looks like the Queen of Scots to me, but the loco number is still a bit speculative.

Happy for these to be shared with Roy Jackson. Just no publication, please, without reference back to me, unless it's in a limited circulation journal to get more info.

Brian

 

[FiftyFourA]

One thing that may limit the date at least is that the A3 appears to have a single chimney; 60055 Woolwinder being the first converted in June 1958, the rest following fairly swiftly afterwards because of the improved performance and efficiency.

Peter

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Peter. Your comments confirm Mick's.

An Oops! follows because I forgot to add the attachment showing the detail of the loco re possible identification of number and train, so here it is now.

B

 

[mickoo]

Bearing in mind I'm only working with low quality web images, I've lightened and fiddled with the tones a bit to get some more detail out of the shadows.

It does look like 'The Queen of Scots' but the engine number is lost, it also looks like a 94 boiler with straight wash out plugs and it could be a domed one, rather than streamlined dome which would narrow it down even further.

The second shot is almost certainly a 2-8-0 of some sort as I can see two coupling rod bearings behind the main connecting rod bearing, other than that, not a lot else really.





MD

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks again, Mick. Very helpful. Looking at that small area photo I'd take a punt on those being angled wash out plugs. This is a section from a 2400 dpi scan.

B