James Spooner
Western Thunderer
Hi Tim, attached are a couple of photos of the box with details. I hope that helps.
Nigel
Elmham Market in EM
- Thread starter James Spooner
- Start date
Nigel
There is also a Rumney models F4/5/6 chassis, which can be built in EM or P4.
Herb Garden
Western Thunderer
So a bit more on M15 (LNER F4) options
Here's two from my rescue collection awaiting Thier turn.
The one in front is pure Gibson etched brass with a Stephen Poole white metal body on the prototype 52F chassis. Both body options are a good starting point for a model and it really depends on your medium of choice.
The issue is with the chassis. The loco has a very long fixed wheelbase (think that's bad try and F3) and the problem is the Gibson and the Rummney are both unprototypically lacking the radial trucks that these locos had.
On the left is the sprung Gibson F4 chassis in OO which won't take anything less than a 4ft radius curve whereas the EM gauge 52F offering on the right has prototypical radial trucks and also a joggled frame fire and aft meaning it will glide round a 2'6" curve without issue
Not something Nigel needs to worry about on the graceful curves of Elmham market but in much tighter environments like the awkward space I have it's a real bonus.
Also a plus is when you have the body shell on the joggle is completely hidden by the loco steps
Here's two from my rescue collection awaiting Thier turn.
The one in front is pure Gibson etched brass with a Stephen Poole white metal body on the prototype 52F chassis. Both body options are a good starting point for a model and it really depends on your medium of choice.
The issue is with the chassis. The loco has a very long fixed wheelbase (think that's bad try and F3) and the problem is the Gibson and the Rummney are both unprototypically lacking the radial trucks that these locos had.
On the left is the sprung Gibson F4 chassis in OO which won't take anything less than a 4ft radius curve whereas the EM gauge 52F offering on the right has prototypical radial trucks and also a joggled frame fire and aft meaning it will glide round a 2'6" curve without issue
Not something Nigel needs to worry about on the graceful curves of Elmham market but in much tighter environments like the awkward space I have it's a real bonus.
Also a plus is when you have the body shell on the joggle is completely hidden by the loco steps
James Spooner
Western Thunderer
George,
I'm afraid your generous comments are slightly misplaced! Whilst Elmham Market does display generous curves in the scenic areas, I mis-measured the attic when designing the layout so do have some behind the scenes curves nearer three foot radius than the four foot six originally planned. Hey ho! So, Peter’s work around for the long wheelbased 2-4-2’s would be much appreciated in these parts!
cheers
Nigel
James Spooner
Western Thunderer
I must admit that my modelling mojo has taken a bit of a hit following the completion of the push pull project and associated trackwork. A visit to the Southampton show did get me stirred up a bit more so I decided to venture into an area I had hitherto avoided like the plague: whitemetal soldering. For some reason, although I am able to solder brass and nickel silver together to my satisfaction, I have always shied away from whitemetal. Possibly fear of poking a soldering iron right through the work, possibly dark stories about how difficult it is, not sure really but I had never done it.
When at the Portsmouth show before Christmas I came away with a couple of the old ABS kits, now being re-marketed, both ex LNER 6 plank opens. They, like many kits, were lying around waiting attention and this week I resolved not only to make them but to solder them rather than glue. In an attempt to dispel my concerns about how to solder whitemetal I Googled the topic and found an excellent video put out by the Gauge O Guild on just that subject. Having watched it I applied the lessons.
Initially I think I turned the soldering iron down too much (it was at 200 degrees and I was using Carr’s 100 degree solder), so, by degrees, I cranked the iron up until I could get the solder to run and flow nicely, then I was off. To be honest , the most difficult bit was ensuring the main components were at right angles and I needed a bit a playing about to achieve that, then it dropped together amazingly quickly.
I know that for many of you, this is something you mastered many years ago, but for this simple hack, it was definitely a milestone and I’m quite pleased with my handiwork. I rather enjoyed it too so have dug out some more whitemetal wagon kits - although the D&S ones seem to be a mix of whitemetal and etched construction so possibly more complex. Some photos attached.
Nigel
When at the Portsmouth show before Christmas I came away with a couple of the old ABS kits, now being re-marketed, both ex LNER 6 plank opens. They, like many kits, were lying around waiting attention and this week I resolved not only to make them but to solder them rather than glue. In an attempt to dispel my concerns about how to solder whitemetal I Googled the topic and found an excellent video put out by the Gauge O Guild on just that subject. Having watched it I applied the lessons.
Initially I think I turned the soldering iron down too much (it was at 200 degrees and I was using Carr’s 100 degree solder), so, by degrees, I cranked the iron up until I could get the solder to run and flow nicely, then I was off. To be honest , the most difficult bit was ensuring the main components were at right angles and I needed a bit a playing about to achieve that, then it dropped together amazingly quickly.
I know that for many of you, this is something you mastered many years ago, but for this simple hack, it was definitely a milestone and I’m quite pleased with my handiwork. I rather enjoyed it too so have dug out some more whitemetal wagon kits - although the D&S ones seem to be a mix of whitemetal and etched construction so possibly more complex. Some photos attached.
Nigel
AJC
Western Thunderer
Very nice - I do like Adrian's pattern making. The only thing I do differently as a matter of course is to replace the embossed 20 thou' floors with a bit of hand scribed 40 thou' (fit and forget, you see - the 20 thou' tends to go wavy). With the D&S kits and their etched W irons you might prefer that option too, something the nice-looking subframe can use for support.
My approach to whitemetal soldering is much more low-tech: a wrap of heavy copper wire round a live-expired bit, tinned at the end to take the solder.
Adam
My approach to whitemetal soldering is much more low-tech: a wrap of heavy copper wire round a live-expired bit, tinned at the end to take the solder.
Adam
James Spooner
Western Thunderer
My voyage of discovery in matters whitemetal soldering continues with a D&S seven plank loco coal (some later converted for use carrying coke). Whilst nominally a whitemetal kit, the underpinnings are all etched brass, supplemented by whitemetal castings and it has been designed to be built compensated.
Soldering the body together was the easy bit. The instructions are a little sparse when it comes to explaining how the chassis components do exactly fit together but I am working it out with the aid of some photos in Peter Taplow’s excellent work. It does take a lot longer than the ABS kit though and I think the only benefit of the extra work is the compensation. As 99% of my wagons are not compensated that’s not really a great benefit but, hey ho, onwards and upwards! I have completed the rocking axle arrangement and started in the fixed one to the extent of having bent up the W iron frame. Hopefully I’ll finish it tomorrow. A photo is attached of the current part assembled state.
Nigel
Soldering the body together was the easy bit. The instructions are a little sparse when it comes to explaining how the chassis components do exactly fit together but I am working it out with the aid of some photos in Peter Taplow’s excellent work. It does take a lot longer than the ABS kit though and I think the only benefit of the extra work is the compensation. As 99% of my wagons are not compensated that’s not really a great benefit but, hey ho, onwards and upwards! I have completed the rocking axle arrangement and started in the fixed one to the extent of having bent up the W iron frame. Hopefully I’ll finish it tomorrow. A photo is attached of the current part assembled state.
Nigel
James Spooner
Western Thunderer
Well it turns out I was over optimistic in hoping to finish the coal wagon last night (not helped by an invitation to the pub…). One key reason for it taking longer was a rather daft thought that, if I was going to go to the effort of compensating the chassis, I also ought spring the buffers. There is nothing wrong with the buffers supplied, in fact they are rather lovely whitemetal castings, so I had the even dafter notion of using the bodies supplied, cutting the tails and heads off, drilling the bodies with a 1mm drill and fitting Alan Gibson sprung heads.
I did succeed after a fashion although will fully admit my hand drilling wasn’t perfect so the heads are slightly at a skew but they are sprung.
It was also my first attempt at soldering whitemetal to brass, including the quite wee etches provided to represent the Monarch door restrainers. Anyhow, it is now finished and awaiting the paint shop with quite a few other wagons. I think I am going to have to have a blitz on painting and get them all masked up and done in one fell swoop. Before I do that, though, I am sorely tempted to construct a D&S ex GER 20t brake van…
A couple of photos of the seven plank dia 31 coal wagon attached.
Nigel
I did succeed after a fashion although will fully admit my hand drilling wasn’t perfect so the heads are slightly at a skew but they are sprung.
It was also my first attempt at soldering whitemetal to brass, including the quite wee etches provided to represent the Monarch door restrainers. Anyhow, it is now finished and awaiting the paint shop with quite a few other wagons. I think I am going to have to have a blitz on painting and get them all masked up and done in one fell swoop. Before I do that, though, I am sorely tempted to construct a D&S ex GER 20t brake van…
A couple of photos of the seven plank dia 31 coal wagon attached.
Nigel
James Spooner
Western Thunderer
The boss has gone up to Lincolnshire and Yorkshire on a tour of (part of) the north to see her family and has left me with a bundle of tasks to deal with in her absence so this weekend’s modelling has been snatched in between tasks. However, I have started on the GER 20t brake van.
As with most brake vans, there are an awful lot of grab rails to be modelled, which I chose to do in 0.33mm wire, soldered in place, seven separate wires for each side so far. They are all cut, bent and in place and the basic body shell is now taking shape. Photo attached (note to self, modelling after cooking a roast with a few glasses of cooking sherry followed by half a bottle of red isn’t recommended).
Nigel
As with most brake vans, there are an awful lot of grab rails to be modelled, which I chose to do in 0.33mm wire, soldered in place, seven separate wires for each side so far. They are all cut, bent and in place and the basic body shell is now taking shape. Photo attached (note to self, modelling after cooking a roast with a few glasses of cooking sherry followed by half a bottle of red isn’t recommended).
Nigel
James Spooner
Western Thunderer
Over the last couple of evenings I have been progressing with the brake van. I have to say it is beautifully detailed, especially when one considers the age of it. That said, it is giving me some trials and tribulations, at times combined with profanities the gentle reader would, I am sure, rather I glossed over.
The solebars and buffer beams are a part of the body castings, but the bulk of the chassis is etched. It is also designed to be compensated with a standard rocking beam on one axle. So far, so good and that all went together fine with etched brake blocks folding up and soldering in OK (although I did apply a bit of wear to the blocks to avoid shorts).
Fitting the brass chassis into the recess was another matter, though. The spring stops are four separate castings that I soldered inside each corner of the solebars, having measured to make sure they lined up with the W irons. Sadly they then fouled the brass chassis so much muttering and imprecations were generated whilst the backs were filed and sanded back to give room for the chassis.
That achieved, I am now trying to figure out the arrangement of the brake rigging. It is pretty clear that Dan P has provided sufficient etches for a complete set of brake rigging for either four or six wheeled versions of this van (for the Great Eastern started making them with six wheels and later decided four were sufficient). Sadly the instructions are quite brief so I am now trying to work out how all the bits go together (as well as working out which bits I don’t need because I am building the four wheeled version, not the six)…
Some photos are attached (in order of progress) and if anyone is able to enlighten me or point me in the direction of a photo or isometric drawing or similar of suitable brake rigging I would be eternally grateful!
Nigel
The solebars and buffer beams are a part of the body castings, but the bulk of the chassis is etched. It is also designed to be compensated with a standard rocking beam on one axle. So far, so good and that all went together fine with etched brake blocks folding up and soldering in OK (although I did apply a bit of wear to the blocks to avoid shorts).
Fitting the brass chassis into the recess was another matter, though. The spring stops are four separate castings that I soldered inside each corner of the solebars, having measured to make sure they lined up with the W irons. Sadly they then fouled the brass chassis so much muttering and imprecations were generated whilst the backs were filed and sanded back to give room for the chassis.
That achieved, I am now trying to figure out the arrangement of the brake rigging. It is pretty clear that Dan P has provided sufficient etches for a complete set of brake rigging for either four or six wheeled versions of this van (for the Great Eastern started making them with six wheels and later decided four were sufficient). Sadly the instructions are quite brief so I am now trying to work out how all the bits go together (as well as working out which bits I don’t need because I am building the four wheeled version, not the six)…
Some photos are attached (in order of progress) and if anyone is able to enlighten me or point me in the direction of a photo or isometric drawing or similar of suitable brake rigging I would be eternally grateful!
Nigel
James Spooner
Western Thunderer
Pete
Many thanks, I very much appreciate your help here. I have also found, in an early volume of Tatlow on LNER wagons, an isometric drawing of brake rigging and a photo of an upended wagon, both of which I am posting as I also found those invaluable in working out the brake rigging arrangement.
I am making progress and show a photo of where I have got to now. I still have to make a couple of vertical links to attach the different bits together.
In other parts of this build, I have taken two steps back because I rather naively assumed the spring stop castings (four, one for each axle box) were held together to enable them to be correctly spaced behind the solebar. Doh! Silly me! Of course not, that was just to make life easier in the casting process. So I have had to unsolder all of them, separate the castings into three pieces and resolder back on. A severe test of my newfound whitemetal soldering skills! Again a photo attached.
Nigel
Many thanks, I very much appreciate your help here. I have also found, in an early volume of Tatlow on LNER wagons, an isometric drawing of brake rigging and a photo of an upended wagon, both of which I am posting as I also found those invaluable in working out the brake rigging arrangement.
I am making progress and show a photo of where I have got to now. I still have to make a couple of vertical links to attach the different bits together.
In other parts of this build, I have taken two steps back because I rather naively assumed the spring stop castings (four, one for each axle box) were held together to enable them to be correctly spaced behind the solebar. Doh! Silly me! Of course not, that was just to make life easier in the casting process. So I have had to unsolder all of them, separate the castings into three pieces and resolder back on. A severe test of my newfound whitemetal soldering skills! Again a photo attached.
Nigel
James Spooner
Western Thunderer
Some progress this evening. I have got the brake rigging all fitted up and soldered in and have turned my attention to the corner stanchions. These are made of 1.5mm brass T section and the good Mr P didn’t have any left when I ordered the kit from him. A call to Metalsmith in Leeds resulted in a delivery arriving on Wednesday so I have now followed the instructions (the corner stanchions were tapered in places and also held one of the handrails) and soldered the first one in place. Off to the local EMGS area group meeting this evening so will tackle the remaining three over the next evening or so.
Nigel
Nigel
James Spooner
Western Thunderer
Thanks Dave and, yes, you are right, it does trap the wheels in. That may come back to bite me at some point in the future, I do concede, but generally I don’t find I have to remove wheelsets once a wagon is completed so I thought I would take the risk.
Nigel
James Spooner
Western Thunderer
This evening’s effort has been spent creating the remaining three corner stanchions from T section. Now done I think it’s time for well earned end of week pint…
Nigel
Nigel
James Spooner
Western Thunderer
OK, so I was probably a bit premature and I did manage to fit the handrail to one of the stanchions and then solder the stanchion in place before going for a couple of pints. Photo attached.
Nigel
Nigel
James Spooner
Western Thunderer
Modelling took a back seat for at least a part of the weekend as the mem sahib and I travelled to Brighton as a part of the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland team for the HRA Awards ceremony. Very pleased to report that, in a very tough field, James Spooner won the John Coiley award for engineering excellence and Osian Hughes (our marketing guru) won the Rising Star award (Rising Star sounds like it should be a loco name really - perhaps it was and I am ignorant of it!).
However, back home now and making more progress with the brake van. This is challenging my obviously limited skills but o have now completed and fitted the remaining two stanchions, added the buffers and coupling pockets as well as the springs and soldered the chassis to the body.
I have now started on the footsteps and these are incredibly delicate (to the extent I have now lost two of the supports) as well as quite fiddly to get correctly in place. I’m stopping here for the evening as frustration is setting in but attach a photo of the current state of play.
Nigel
However, back home now and making more progress with the brake van. This is challenging my obviously limited skills but o have now completed and fitted the remaining two stanchions, added the buffers and coupling pockets as well as the springs and soldered the chassis to the body.
I have now started on the footsteps and these are incredibly delicate (to the extent I have now lost two of the supports) as well as quite fiddly to get correctly in place. I’m stopping here for the evening as frustration is setting in but attach a photo of the current state of play.
Nigel
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AJC
Western Thunderer
Despite your frustration, I think that's coming together quite nicely. And yes, there was a Rising Star, 70027:
And GWR 4007 (until 1937):
And, because the GWR were perfectly happy continuing a good name, a Broad Gauge loco as well: GWR Star Class - Wikipedia
Adam
And GWR 4007 (until 1937):
And, because the GWR were perfectly happy continuing a good name, a Broad Gauge loco as well: GWR Star Class - Wikipedia
Adam