Finescale - of a sort?!

[Tom Insole]

Well that was a result for the books. Did you take the little engine with as suggested?
Really is a brilliant little thing! Take it they didn't let you have a battery pack and controller with it?

Didn't confess to your desires to sneak up behind her with a screwdriver and "borrow" one of the two motors on the rear whilst at a set of lights or waiting in a queue....

 

[Peter Insole]

Ooh-err chaps, it never occurred to me that it might have a diff...!

After getting home from work and reading the replies I had a full blown Corporal Jones moment!

Rushed straight back out in the freezing cold to fish in the car toolbox for a pair of Moles, whipped the motor off so I could see any movement at the gearbox input shaft, then set about the axle...



Panic over!

The axle is resolutely solid all the way through:

Whew!

I agree that having a freewheel capability would have been a great advantage, but I'm prepared to accept the compromise this time on a "beggars" basis?

There are a couple of other questions about this set up that I feel aught to be addressed before I start cutting into any part of the existing model, so
I am thinking of using the spare plastic donor toy as a prototype to thoroughly test it all before finally committing myself?

Pete.

 

[Osgood]

Sorry about the panic Pete - just that earlier this year I obtained a few motor/box combos off old chairs to replace a couple of expired air motors on hose reels in a WW2 refuelling tanker, and never came across one with a dual output shaft. You can see the air motors under the pump engine on inside of reels, with a bicycle chain drive.


As you were.....

 

[Mike W]

the spare plastic donor toy

Another one! A pair! Oh yes, another L&Y or maybe an LNWR equivalent. They would be great together ...

... eh, did I say something wrong?

 

[Peter Insole]

That will be a neat fix Osgood! I doubt many would notice the difference when the chair motors are substituted?!

Indeed Tom, I did take the engine to show the chap what I had in mind - and to be able to see if anything he had to offer might fit...! It is probably fair to say that while he was interested, he was perhaps rather more bemused. I rather imagine that if I had shown him something that could be raced; his enthusiasm would have been boundless?!

The guy has plenty of suitable battery packs, chargers, controllers etc., both new and used in stock. I will need those items too, but they can wait for the moment! I think that simple lash-up jobs will do for testing in the meantime, or until my account has a few more pennies in it anyway?!

Sorry to disappoint you Mike W, but I've got enough to do just getting this one running!

The original toy was bought new for £60, but another was picked up second hand to provide more track and spares. It was some parts from the extra loco that provided the impetus for this project!

Pete.

 

[Tom Insole]

Indeed Tom, I did take the engine to show the chap what I had in mind - and to be able to see if anything he had to offer might fit...! It is probably fair to say that while he was interested, he was perhaps rather more bemused. I rather imagine that if I had shown him something that could be raced; his enthusiasm would have been boundless?!
Pete.

Oh he was one of those types... had it of been one of those little home grown kit cars for kids made from mobility scooters (few on eBay I've seen and wanted to do one in a old Model A style in the future when I have little ones!) he might have been all over it.

At least they give options for upgrading controls and power supplies. That could make the controls really interesting with a regulator that works to the ratios of the speed controller (like the real thing).

 

[Peter Insole]

Although I shouldn't be starting on the new chassis modifications yet, there has been something bothering me over the last few days:

As the engine has been scaled and designed to be convertible at a later date from the toy five and three quarter inch gauge to a proper and more versatile five inches, plus the incredible bonus that the new motor axle is just the right length for the former, I have been fretting over the best method of fitting the existing plastic driving wheels without resorting to heavy engineering!

The steel axle is shouldered down to a 30mm long bearing of 15mm diameter, complete with a very useful keyway. This would all be perfect for a pair of turned cast wheels with the bore machined to fit, so I do not want to do anything drastic there apart from removing the now superfluous threaded lock nut ends.



For the meantime I prefer modifying the existing model affairs. Tricky enough maybe, but he main problem is that the centre boss is only a rather weedy 13mm diameter!

I will need to completely remove said bosses and substitute with two sturdy flanged collars that I can screw the plastic centres to. Without resorting to specially commissioned turnings, where on earth can I possibly find anything remotely suitable...?

Then this afternoon:-

"Hold on a minute..." I says to meself;

"15mm bore?... ...that's the same as common copper water pipe innit!..."

Hopped in the little Fiat, and a short while later came home with some of these:-



Now I have got something to that I can have a real bit of fun with?

They can be filed, drilled, soldered and generally mucked about with on a simple table top workbench. And if it all goes horribly wrong I might feel like a wally, but my wallet won't feel it too much?!



The "straight coupler" is a nice fit but only slides half way on to the axle...

Inside there is a shallow pipe stop ring...



It didn't take awfully long to shift the projections with some "rifflers", taking care to leave a short section that locates in the keyway to aid with quartering...



Happily, there is a fair amount of adjustment available at present, with some shaving off to do fore and aft. Once I have settled on the precise inside measurements of the wheel mouldings I can then solder the "back nut" flange firmly to the coupler.

There is even a nice flat section of the inner nut ring to drill through for a set-screw?!

All a bit of a wheeze...?

By the way, if anyone is wondering?... ...I do have a gas torch here at home that can dump enough heat into those castings for solder, but the plastic valve knob has broken off!

"Well fix it dear Hennery, dear Hennery..."

"With what shall I fix it dear..."

"......."

You should all know how the rest of that one goes...?!

Pete.

 

[Peter Insole]

Just to follow the previous post; how about this for a bit of jam:

I decided to measure up for the required width of the flanges between the insides of the wheels.

First I used the end of my set square, inserted it between the spokes and scribed a line to mark the depth to the back of the flange...



I repeated the exercise several times to make absolutely sure; and it came out pretty consistently at 21mm.

Then I measured the back to back;



This time it varied a little, the plastic wheel is not quite perfectly square on the axle!

121mm seems to be the average, and will be fine for our needs, and so was able to calculate the total distance required as 163 mm.

I then measured the new motor axle and drew a sketch to work out how much adjustment on the brass bits would be required...



As I am sure you all can see from the above, I would need each coupler and back nut combination to come out at 31.5mm when butted firmly up against the axle shoulder:

Now just look at what I got when the nut was tightened down hard on the coupler thread:-



Oh, for goodness sake!...

Although it pains me to say so; you really can do it when you B&Q it!

If only the same jolly luck would run for the lottery eh?!

Pete.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

View attachment 82199

If only the same jolly luck would run for the lottery eh?!

Pete.

What ! £31.47.....

Col.

 

[Steph Dale]

£3.14 would be a start!

Steph

 

[Peter Insole]

While all the folks are out and making merry in the last hours of 2017, I'm sitting here alone in my draughty garret, warming my cold and cracking fingers by a roaring candle flame and thinking of all the pennies that I am not spending!

Mean old humbug?... ...What me?

So how is this for frugal:

The little engine requires a tender that can double as a driving truck:



And a certain supplier of miniature railways make the following for both five and seven and a quarter inch gauge... (with apologies to the copyright owner for showing their catalogue image).



Hmmm...? A few subtle modifications here and there and Bob's yer uncle...??

I'm quite sure that it is jolly good value for money too, but I still don't have enough of the stuff!

As my saw still has a few sharp teeth in it there is nothing to stop me doing my own version from scratch? Apart from the tricky business of the wheels?!

The original tenders, derived from standard Horwich wagons, had flat profile tyres on wheels running freely on fixed, shouldered axles. Perfect for our model to negotiate the extremely sharp set curves?

Steel jobs with built in ball race bearings? Oh dear, such things might not only tear the plastic rails to bits, but be way over the miniscule budget as well methinks?!

Then one day a delightfully gift wrapped parcel was presented to me, containing these four beauties:



Oooooh,... they don't half run sweet!

I know the nylon is horribly white, but I have been assured by one of our very own, and much respected experts of this parish that a regular "permanent marker" pen will do the trick!

"OK, as some of it wears orf, you can just scribble a bit more back on!"

I don't mind that, especially as there is the best bit of all to consider:

They were only £3.50 each - and brand new!!!

Happy new year to all!

Pete.

 

[Ressaldar]

you have probably just pushed the price of permanent markers through the roof in your neck of the woods!

Great stuff Peter, looking forward to the first pictures of the loco and tender.

Happy New Year to you and yours.

Mike

 

[Peter Insole]

Thanks Mike!

I have been chuckling at the thought that the price of enough 17mm round steel bar to make the two tender axles will probably give my wallet a bit of a deserved shock?!

Yes, I am rather looking forward to having both items together for a photograph as well! Before that can happen I must get the modified loco chassis built though:

Being rather concerned that the new motor/gearbox will produce enough torque to demolish the original model I have decided to adopt a "belt and braces" approach, building a sturdy steel sub frame to mount all the running gear on to.

The following bodge has been keeping me busy (apart from doing the necessary rounds and visiting various in and outlaws) during this festive break...



Once again it would seem that the gods are smiling: An available length of 20 x 20mm angle perfectly matched the earlier timber box dimensions, meaning that it should in theory be relatively straightforward to replace like for like :-

I could simply copy all the measurements and transfer the original front axle/suspension units, and even re use the old countersunk screw holes in the external frames!

Where's the problem?

I keep forgetting that I'm absolutely useless at maths...

Measured, measured again, written down, then drawn up and checked goodness knows how many times? - and I still managed to drill the wretched holes for the motor front cross-member in the wrong place!!! Worse, the 5mm holes were only 3mm out of line?!

That made me think for a while?!

The solution:

A rummage in the rusty bits and bobs tin for something a bit bigger than an M5 (probably an old Whitworth or whatever?) produced a short length of studding. Popped it in the drill press chuck and spun the thread off with a file, then kept going until it was just a smidge over size for the holes.(Not exactly proper engineering is it?!) Then spent a happy few minutes whacking them well home with a big hammer, cutting off and filing down the battered ends.

While not a particularly tidy piece of work, and despite some trepidation when drilling the new correct holes with their centres just outside the repair plugs, they have held perfectly fast!!!



As if I weren't slow enough; I have been inclined to taken even more time and trouble with rest of the awkward fiddly stuff...



This mounting bracket proved to be a right little monkey to bend and shape from a bit of flat steel - but all the "huffing an' duffing" didn't half help to get rid of the extra Christmas fare effect!



I was rather amazed to find that the whole lot was hanging in pretty much the right place at the front end, (furthest from camera in the above shot) needing only the slightest "adjustment" with a duffer!

(Don't worry, that has absolutely nothing to do with either anatomy or attire that's worn below the waist, but is our own home grown phonetic speak for an 'ammer! - courtesy of Tom from the days when he was but a mere nipper!)



As I have only got 20mm angle, the two more short sections for the rear mountings where just a tad under height for fitting the M6 bolts. (Unlike the front, the rearward holes are both rather conveniently pre threaded!) Another rummage for some sort of spacer turned up a strip of spare brass etch that was not only perfect in width and depth but just long enough to divide, with only the tiniest trim required! The jolly saw teeth could take another rest?!

Yet more checking - with the coupling rods - and whew! So far, so good?! By now, I could relax a bit?

Perhaps too relaxed? At this point I got a bit carried away:

Well, I am fully aware that those rear angle brackets will be hidden below the high frame ends and decorative leaf springs when the sub frame is installed. Purely functional they may be, and would have been fine if left alone - but they just didn't look right to me!

A few less ounces of fat later:



That's a bit better...?

Is getting "hacksaw happy" a known or recognised syndrome I wonder?!

Pete.

 

[Peter Insole]

It was a bit nerve wracking starting the first cut into the main driving wheel yesterday! One slip, and there could be a whole heap of aggro to follow?!

The plastic is fairly easy to work, rather too easy perhaps, so I had to go very slowly, nibbling away a bit at a time! I was not sure how on earth I could possibly remove the last sections of spoke and journal flush at the bottom though?

Now I have one less screwdriver in my rather sparse tool kit! By using a linisher to whizz the blade down to a razor sharp edge, I am now the proud owner of a lovely miniature chisel that has proved just right for the job!



When the hub flange has been finally drilled and bolted in place, I think it would be an idea to set the whole shebang in resin. That way, there can be no flexing and it would provide a solid seat to contain any inward thrust in the spokes?

I'm unsure of the best type to use at the moment though!

Meanwhile, in order to ensure that the hub was absolutely centred, and as the new gearbox does not have a freewheel facility, I needed some means of turning the axle to check.

So I knocked up this little tool from a coach bolt!

Held in the chuck of a variable speed, cordless drill/screwdriver and popped into the input socket, it gave me the ability to give it a controlled spin, while allowing a degree of "feel" for the torque and movement of the rig at the same time.



And it goes - really goes!!

Although I have still got quite a bit to do on the main driving wheels and front suspension yet, the new hubs are such a tight fit that they were perfectly rigid enough for several repeated full revolution tests up and down the table top!

Yahoo!!

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Brilliant!!!

Jon

 

[Peter Insole]

Where, oh where has the last year gone?

Although there is a whole lot of other very important business to sort out, I feel that it is time to start picking up the little engine project again.

I went round the town on a hunt for some ideas for the riding truck axles, and happily found these bits and bobs:



And all for not much more than a tenner!

Threaded studding is not terribly pretty, but with a bit of fettling work the arrangement should do the job perfectly well?

The fun will really start when it comes to bending up and drilling some flat steel bar for the frames...?!

My ideas won't be to scale, but I would like to maintain the general appearance and character of the original little tenders.

Pete.

 

[Peter Insole]

I rather like making life as difficult as possible for myself!

The wire rope clamps seen in the previous image were slightly too small for the axle ends and would have needed a round file to open them out a bit.

That was the easy part!

I wanted to remove the threads from those axle ends, but without a lathe I just had to file them off in the bench vice. I worked steadily all round, taking off metal until I had the faint remaining lines at the bottom of the vees. When satisfied that the ends were reasonably round, I then polished them on the linisher.

Whew. That was tedious!



The clamps now fit nice and snug, and the wheels will be gauge adjustable down to 5'' if required at some later date?!

Just got to work out the best method of locking the M16 axle nuts now.



Although my weekend has been interrupted by all sorts of other things, I have still managed to get more done towards achieving a rolling chassis.



By this morning I had drilled and temporarily bolted the axles to the two tie bars. I was very relieved to find that the clamps grip square enough to hold this basic frame rigid, and when testing I found that it runs beautifully, even like this!

Thus far I seem to be getting away with it?

As I have just mentioned, there has been quite a bit of running around over the past few days, and an added complication is that the next operations will be rather noisy - from the neighbours point of view anyway...!

Bashing some more steel bar into a pair of double axleguard units would be an ultimate test of my own nerve as well?

Right up to the last minute I had been desperately trying to think of any alternative arrangement, while imagining everything that could possibly go wrong. This afternoon I noticed that the driveways on either side of our house were empty, and with no one else here at home either, it was an opportune moment to pick up the hammer and start making a right old racket...?



Ooowwww… one done!

That bar was bloomin' 'ard…!

I guess that in theory it might have been better - and probably easier if I had heated it with a blow torch first, but I was afraid that all the fiddling around making sure that the bar was precisely located in the vice jaws for each vitally accurate bend would have left me with severely scorched digits, as well as being a complete waste of gas...?

Luckily, the cold steel behaved itself nicely in the end and shows no sign of cracking or flaking, so it looks like I've got away with it yet again?

Although this first one needs a wee bit of wrestling here and there to perfect the fitting, my ears were still ringing and my arms ached too much to carry on any further.

Besides, all the folks had drifted back home anyway.

Tomorrow sometime, I shall not only have to repeat the whole painful exercise, but the daunting added challenge of making it closely match the first...?

.....

Oh heck...!

Pete.

 

[Peter Insole]

Gasp, that particular nightmare is over and 'tis all done now!

One of the angles really fought back and needed a couple of mils knocking flat again during the bend.



The radii are all a bit variable, so a couple of the angles have had to be set slightly off to ensure that the top and bottom of the frames are perfectly parallel!

Talking of variables; the centres for the factory made u-bolts were each wildly different, so for me, that made marking out and drilling for them quite a bit of fun. I'm afraid that it was necessary to be naughty and resort to a round file to "ease" some of the holes and thus ensure the axles remain absolutely square when bolted up?!



Now I'm happy with the set up, I think I will trim the tails off the tiebars to leave the ends just beneath the front and rear angles?

If I had thought a bit more carefully about it, I could have left a longer length leading at the front of the tender on either side for easier attachment of removable footrests?

Do I really fancy some more of that drilling nonsense all over again for two new bars instead?

Hmmm...?!

I suppose I should really?

Pete

 

[Peter Insole]

Perhaps this thread should now be retitled: "Pushing the boundaries", or more appropriately; "A catalogue of errors!" ?

It had seemed to be going swimmingly well...?

Just before Christmas I had a quick run around looking for materials to keep me busy. One of the things required was a chisel tipped permanent marker pen.

Now it would seem that only one supplier has cornered the market in our part of the world? I wilted a bit at the prices demanded for multipacks but eventually found one retailer selling them singly!

This is what I gleefully bought:



A nice BLACK pen! "Colour as per cap" is what it said on the packaging...

Bet no-one can guess what came next...?

As I applied it to the little white nylon wheels it came out brilliantly purple..!

I was so relieved to notice that the shade rapidly darkened as it dried though... to a delightfully festive, "antique" bronze colour!!



Perfect for making invisible scratch repairs to great grandma's favourite spelter dolphins or on the botty of a naughty, nudie lady sculpture, but a bit odd on the undercarriage of a locomotive tender eh?

If that were not bad enough, at the slightest hint of moisture the stuff returns to the original royal tint - and comes straight off again.

Not very "Permanent" either then?

So be aware of the ornaments to all New Year partygoers, be sure that sins might only be temporarily hidden?!

What else could go wrong now...



I wanted a really nice solid and hefty piece of ply for the floor, so I had a hunt around the house for the offcut left over from a previous job. Then I remembered that it had already found another use. I would have to buy a whole whacking great sheet for a tiddly ten by seventeen inches!

Mind you, I was a bit concerned about glueing and screwing the sides onto "end grain" anyway, so ended up with an available, middling size sheet of 9mm instead. It just meant that the angles would now have to be made up with 15mm square timber all round.

Now I know I am always banging on about some best practice or another, and one is about always doing drawings for everything FIRST!

Did I heck this time...?

Nah! Thought I could wing it?

Firstly, I decided to use the rest of the new sheet of ply for the sides and ends, reasoning that the truck would likely get some rough treatment, so the stronger the better?

Completely forgot about the extra length, width - and weight that would impose though!

More of that anon...



Oh silly me - imagining that I could even use a calculator too?

A dreadful tendency for the wagon to tip backwards when sat upon was only discovered during a gentle track test once the whole thing had been firmly stuck and fixed in place.

I was aware that I was pushing at the boundaries.

For 5'' gauge, ground level railways, the minimum wheelbase for four wheeled driving trucks appears to be 10''. I feared however that would still be slightly over long for our curves, so took a bit of a chance and reduced it by an inch...!

I then found that in my haste I had not cut one end of the floor quite square either.

There was only one thing to do...?



Knock it all down and chop an inch off both the ends. Made a bit of a mess of the nice and reasonably neat joinery in places!

Later, much later, when looking at photographs I spotted that the "old Lanky" might have had a similar problem with stability? The toolbox end of their tenders are actually cut slightly shorter than the original donor wagon fronts, so I had not needed to chop both ends off after all...!!!

I will not try to describe my thoughts on that belated discovery!



Back to square and only one day lost so far...!!

Pete.

 

[Oz7mm]

Pete

Next time you need any materials, but particularly timber, remember to look around the Love Lane offcuts.........please!!!!!!!

John