Genesis of the LMS coach

[LarryG]

I am concentrating this LMS Period III episode on open saloon coaches, because they tend to be the Cinderellas of the RTR world. To the LMS, the open coach was almost as important as the side corridor coach and well over 1000 Stanier open coaches were built. Longer-distance excursion or society specials, the open coach was your man with it's useful tables and unobstructed views of the outside world....

The 65' D1902 open first was built between 1933 and 1939 and shared the distinction of being the longest LMS loco-hauled eight-wheel coaches. Model built from Comet sides...


The D1904 was the first design of Stanier open third and copied the Period II version except for Stanier windows, however the interiors showed a noticeable improvement in quality. There was a slight inward inclination of the seat ends to afford extra waist width in the aisle (replacing the old 'cranked' form of seat end), and upholstery displayed a modish flare.....


The 60-seat D1915 had a half-bay instead of a toilet at one end and was classed as 'Excursion' stock....


The suppression of the half-bay led to the more spacious D1999 with 7" more length per seating bay, and might be termed the 'standard' Period III open third being built in larger quantities than any of the other designs. These coaches can be built from Comet kits....


A rake of LMS opens at Llandudno Junction...

 

[LarryG]

LMS Stanier open brake thirds came in several forms. This is the D1916/D1946 six-bay design and like the D1915 was regarded as excursion stock. Some of these coaches were built by Pickering & Co....


An interesting open coach was the D1948 Buffet Car. Four were built in 1936...


The D1938 composite dining car was the Stanier equivalent of the Period II D1811....

 

[LarryG]

Before leaving the 1930's behind, The LMS D1850 brake composite was the pioneer Stanier corridor coach design and introduced to the LMS the smooth flush clad exterior and sliding window vents three years before the GWR adopted them. I have mentioned this because some publications tell us Stanier brought to the LMS these features from the GWR! Note the lavatory water filler pipes running down beside the corridor connection (as per LNER coaches). These were quickly changed to serve as handrails on future coaches...



The brake composite was a very useful type of vehicle and so in 1939-40, the LMS rebuilt the old Period I D1704 coaches with Stanier sides to D1704A as a 'cheap' way of upgrading the type. They retailed their original wood & canvass roof's and wooden matchboard ends, however, they were also the first coaches to get sliding windows of the later type with smaller centre sections, which were not to become standard until after the war....


The second 1939-40 rebuilds were the D1720 Period II brake composites, which became D1720A. Once again these vehicles retained the wood and canvass roof and 2' wide luggage doors...

 

[LarryG]

LMS POST-WAR
When coach construction recommenced, the post-war development of the corridor third was the D2119. This type introduced extra doors on the corridor side...


The hinged 'fall-back' top section of the lavatory window was gone, replaced by a grill in the eaves panel that was similar to that used by the LNWR in its Toplight coaches. Partly through postwar shortages of materials and partly through common-sense, the LMS re-used window frames and corridor connections salvaged from war-damaged and scrapped coaches. Some D2119's even received corridor windows that could not be opened....


The next LMS development was the 'Porthole' coach with the familiar circular toilet window, although none were built until after Nationalization in 1949. Even with the brake third, an extra door was inserted on the corridor side. Welded underframes were standard by now unless old underframes were re-used. Note the lower bodyside overlapping the top of the solebars...


The D2159 'Porthole' corridor composite was the last expression of pure LMS design. It was an 'all-steel' design with the body welded direct to the underframe and incorporated a body and roof profile quite new to the company. Some of the ideas were incorporated into the BR Mk.I design. The genesis of the LMS coaches started with experiments in 1917, before the company was formed, and ended with this trail blazer of 1947.

THE END

 

[Focalplane]

Larry

Thank you for you very useful perspective on the LMS coach evolution. After a lot of research in the usual sources there is always something extra to be found. Unfortunately I pressed out the rivets on my Porthole kits before reading that their frames were welded. Such is life.

Paul

 

[LarryG]

It happens Paul. I have a 22thou brass sheet of etched solebars (for 4mm) and have on occasion soldered rivetted solebars to a body instead of plain ones. It then leaves me scratching around for a prototype for everything!

This thread was researched and 'penned' while I was in no mood to build anything, so it is heartening to read it is serving a purpose. Trouble is, I also start looking at 0 gauge again when there's nothing to do!

 

[Overseer]

Lovely collection of coaches and a clear summary of LMS coach development. The brake composites are the only ones I have looked at in any detail due to their use on the Dornoch branch in its last years, usually D1704A. I thought the rebuilding was just a new skin and windows with the frame left mostly as it was and that the D1704A were the unusual ones because all the compartment and corridor windows were the first class width of 4'6" instead of being 4' for third class and 4'6" for first class, while D1720A followed the Period III standard with differing window widths.

 

[LarryG]

Hi Overseer,

The LMS diagrams cannot be trusted to give the correct information unfortunately. So I decided to remove all reference to window widths and let modellers draw their own conclusions from photos of the prototypes. Different widths are easy to spot on the early Stanier composites with shallow sliding vents, but I can see no difference on the rebuilt brake compos.

 

[Genghis]

A fascinating and very informative thread. Thank you!
David

 

[iak63]

Wonderfully modelled beasties Larry.
Your enlightened comments certainly encourage a delve into coach modelling...

 

[Cliff Williams]

A lovely finish Larry, just how I do my own stock. I too prefer a more glossy finish so there are coachside reflections, in particular on the tumblehome, weathered back as needed.

 

[LarryG]

I decided last week to do a stock check of the 4mm scale coach etchings to see what could be completed from stock parts. Buying in sheets just to 'rob' a few parts is not worthwhile at this stage and so coaches that cannot be completed will go on the skip. Several LMS Period I coach sheets are in stock, but scratching around found sufficient parts to complete just one of them, so I decided it would be a D1686 lavatory-composite. It has been finished in BR 1949-56 plain carmine. A peek through the internal door of a lavatory brake third variants in 1958 showed it was obvious from the dusty floor that the lavatory was rarely used.

 

[LarryG]

A question that occasionally arises is, which primer is the best undercoat LMS crimson lake/BR maroon.

I thought these images might be of interest. This old Gresley body was sprayed on the left-hand end with Halfords red oxide primer and the right hand end with Halfords grey primer. When dry, it was sprayed With Halfords Rover Damask Red. I used Damask Red becasue it is the colour often recommended for modellers and it is readily available.

Although grey looks lighter than red oxide, the red oxide actually produces the brighter maroon...


A further coat has levelled things off a bit...


After a coat of matt varnish ...


A spot of lining and black roof to see how things look. The difference in shades due to undercoat is not really an issue by this stage...

 

[LarryG]

I took it a stage further just after lunch and photographed the Gresley in Rover Damask Red with a coach finished in my Midland Lake cellulose that had a waft of Rover Damask Red sprayed on top while the lake was still wet. This procedure was intended to slightly lighten the lake...


To ensure no trick of the light, the models were reversed in position...


Then they were photographed side by side.

The difference between the shades in real life isn't as much as seen on screen. Back in 1952, Ernest Carter in his book on railway liveries said that models should be slightly lighter than the real thing. It might be possible to end up with a darker Damask Red by using a dark brown undercoat. It's something I will try.

 

[LarryG]

Rover Damask red using dark brown (Ford Roman Bronze) as an undercoat. It is darker and closer to the appearance of the model in lake...

 

[LarryG]

I wonder if this thread should now be transferred to 'Resources', and if so, how?

LarryG

 

[Heather Kay]

I think the best way would be to click the Report button and ask nicely. The Flying Squad will get a message, and will perform the magic for you.

 

[LarryG]

Thanks for moving this thread to Recourses.

 

[Muddysblues]

In closing this look at LMS Period II coaches, I must mention the rather curious D1719 (derived from the D1707), which was a semi-open first. Note the narrower timbers in the matchboard ends....
View attachment 100131
These coaches had three compartments that seated 12 passenger only, a large central lavatory-cum-powder room, and a three-bay open saloon dining room for 18 passengers. At least one was converted into an engineers inspection saloon by BR....

Hello Larry, Happy New Year to you, now then I have a question about these dia 1719’s, I have a Sidelines 7mm kit to build, which I want to build as an after revenue earning life Inspection Saloon.

But there is limited information on the internet about the life as Inspection Saloon DM395222, I am trying to find any pictures or drawings if anyone has any information on this vehicle please ?

I have found out that DM395222 now resides at the Midland Railway Butterly, so I think an enquiry, and trip is in the planning.

I would be very grateful thank you.
Craig

 

[LarryG]

Hi Craig,

Happy New Year. I have only seen the Inspection Saloon conversion on railway video so there was no time to study detail. I assume the ends were standard sheet metal with the usual three windows. But this still leaves a lot of unanswered questions. Were the end doors sealed off and was a centre door plus steps inserted on the lavatory side? If so, was it offset to the left or right of the lavatory? Was the interior completely gutted and if so, was it laid out with the usual arm chairs?

It would make for an interesting project and seeing as I produced the etches in 4mm, I might be up for doing a conversion if this thread produces some details.

Larry