JLTRT 37/4 in S7

[D1054]

Thank you for your thoughts on the radiator fan operation.... seems a small motor with either a dedicated function on the main motor decoder or a separate decoder is the route forward.

Agreed! I always use a separate decoder which gives you speed control across the range (which can be useful for controlling noise and visual effect as having them whizzing away at working speed looses the effect in practice. Better a little slower to give the visual effect of the rotation in my book.

 

[Dog Star]

Hi Martin,

What chance that this model will be going with you to the show? If so, will the cabs be viewable?

Apart from the pipework colours, what colour have you used for the cab walls / floors?

thanks, Graham

 

[Pugsley]

I wasn't going to take the whole thing with me, it's too bulky to be dragging around all day, but was going to take one of the bogies with me, as Tom wanted to have a look.

The cab walls are Rail Grey, and desk and front bulkhead Flint Grey (the upper bodyside on Railfreight triple grey). The floor is a grimy brown/black grey colour. All the colours are based upon the cab pics on Brian Daniels' Flickr site.

Depending on how far you want to take the cab detailing, the refurb ones have a kind of rubber sheet enclosing underneath the control desk, by the driver's left leg. I used painted tissue for this, which can be seen in this pic:



The part that comes across to the right should be a bit tighter to the bulkhead, but that was the best I could do. It's barely visible anyway, so you could quite cheerfully not bother and save the hassle!

 

[Dog Star]

Thank you Martin, very useful to have a guide for the cab interior paints.

 

[Spike]

The lights will be mapped to the 8 non-sound functions on the Zimo chip, with independant head/marker/tail/cab light at each end.

Now that I am getting the cab front bulkhead together I have been thinking about how to get lights to the head, narker and tail lights in the nose. LEDs can be fitted behind the nose in a removable holder. I am not sure how to install fibre optic or where to put the light source for the optical fibre.

How are you doing your 37/4? How do other WT members install lights in other JLTRT kits?

thank you, Peter.

 

[Steph Dale]

Guys,

Just a thought for the motor to drive the fans: http://www.dccsupplies.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1003 might work okay, and I've got one of these http://www.dccsupplies.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1002 ready to go into 11001. The speed of rotation of the latter is getting to be about what I need at idle when fed at around 1.5v. I'll probably use a seperate decoder to drive it so that I can get it to alter its speed with engine revs and by putting a capciator in there somewhere I should be able to get it to smoothly accelerate/decelerate and simulate the effect of the hydrostatic coupling between the engine and fan.

Well, that's the theory anyway...

Steph

 

[mickoo]

As far as I'm aware, depending on the particular loco class, it's purely down to coolant temperature. So there will be times when the engine is colder than the fan activation temperature, for instance after starting, where the engine is running and the fan isn't turning. Likewise, there will be times where the cooling system has reduced the coolant temperature below the point the fan is switched on when the engine is under light loading.

Under heavy loads the cooling system will struggle to reduce the coolant temperature below the fan activation temperature, so it will run constantly. There are also moving shutters involved as well, obvious on the class 50's, but also present on the 37's AFAIK. The Class 50's have an electrically driven fan, which has two speeds selected automatically depending on coolant temperature, but the refurbished 37's had a mechanical drive controlled by an electro-magnetic clutch linked to the coolant temperature, so probably only one speed.

Reading between the lines, it's possible that the fan rotates continuously on the unrefurbished 37's as it's driven mechanically from the engine.

HTH

Pugsley,

Fans, I think the class 37 is the same as the 40 and is linked to the engine, you can certainly hear them spin up when the driver gives it the beans, regarding radiator slats, only the Class 50 is automatic as far as I'm aware, class 23/40 are manually operated and I think class 37 too but as they were built between the 40 and 50 may well have some sort of basic auto contol, personally I've never seen the vanes move on a 37.

Fan speed should have a set low speed when idling and speed up when going faster, no idea about DCC, something...fans & DCC...I'm going to have to learn in the near future.

Kindest

 

[Dog Star]

Fans, I think the class 37 is the same as the 40 and is linked to the engine, you can certainly hear them spin up when the driver gives it the beans.

Some of the web sites for Cl37 preservation groups have started posting photos of the restoration within the body shell and those photos show that non re-furbished engines have a simple mechanical drive from the engine - there is a right-angle gearbox mounted under the fan and driven by a carden shaft from the end of the crankshaft. On the other hand, as Pugsley has said, the re-furb engines have a fan drive which is connected to the engine via a clutch arrangement, this is probably an energy efficiency measure along the lines of not rotating the fan when the coolant temperature is such that cooling is not required.

...regarding radiator slats, only the Class 50 is automatic as far as I'm aware

Clearly you did not have the opportunity to stand at the end of PDN no. 1 when a driver opened up a Wezzie at the head of an evening service to the west. If you stood too close to the radiators then the radiator shutters could make as much noise when opening as the Maybachs when unleashed.

As far as I can recall, the Blue 1000s made no more noise than 1000s in any other colour!

 

[mickoo]

Some of the web sites for Cl37 preservation groups have started posting photos of the restoration within the body shell and those photos show that non re-furbished engines have a simple mechanical drive from the engine - there is a right-angle gearbox mounted under the fan and driven by a carden shaft from the end of the crankshaft. On the other hand, as Pugsley has said, the re-furb engines have a fan drive which is connected to the engine via a clutch arrangement, this is probably an energy efficiency measure along the lines of not rotating the fan when the coolant temperature is such that cooling is not required.
Clearly you did not have the opportunity to stand at the end of PDN no. 1 when a driver opened up a Wezzie at the head of an evening service to the west. If you stood too close to the radiators then the radiator shutters could make as much noise when opening as the Maybachs when unleashed.

As far as I can recall, the Blue 1000s made no more noise than 1000s in any other colour!

My bad, I'm not fully upto speed on class 37 cooling arrangments, head too full with other EE projects LOL, also have not got my reference collection to hand, comments were based on memories. I wonder when these clutches were fitted, I do seem to remember class 37 idling on the center road in Ipswich and the fan 'apparently' runing up and down, made a sort of warbling noise and that was back in the early eighties.
Regarding slats, my comments were aimed at EE locos which have reasonably common cooler groups and there are many other similarities with the EE classes, I should of course have added DP2 in with the class 50 which also had automatic slats. My apologies, I should have made the EE connection more clear.

Kindest

 

[Pugsley]

How are you doing your 37/4?

I'm going to use tiny, surface mount, LEDs, which I'm hoping will look suitably like bulbs. For the marker and tail lights, these will be behind lenses from littlecars.com, and should look the part. The high intensity headlight will be lined with foil, and each end will have 2 LEDs, glued together in a V formation, the theory being that it will look like a bulb and reflected light - just like the real thing These will be wired into the decoder, but I haven't yet worked out how I'm going to run the wires.

 

[Pugsley]

I wonder when these clutches were fitted, I do seem to remember class 37 idling on the center road in Ipswich and the fan 'apparently' runing up and down, made a sort of warbling noise and that was back in the early eighties.

The clutches were fitted during refurbishment, so your recollection is correct for an unrefurbished machine.

You may well be right about the slats, I know they're there, but don't know how they're controlled. I've never actually been in the engine compartment of a 37, just guessed that they were controlled in the same manner as 47's and 50's.

 

[mickoo]

The clutches were fitted during refurbishment, so your recollection is correct for an unrefurbished machine.

You may well be right about the slats, I know they're there, but don't know how they're controlled. I've never actually been in the engine compartment of a 37, just guessed that they were controlled in the same manner as 47's and 50's.

Likewise, I'm not sure they are controlled at all automatically, the class 40 is manual and often the linkage broke so you get slats at all sorts of varying angles, the 37s at least look uniform in their angle, I've some EE literature at home, it may explain it a bit better. The other way of course is fixed open slats and then control the water flow with a thermostatic valve along with fan speed if required.

Regarding refurbishment, when did this occur, as I'm talking 37/0s on freightliner trains, fairly sure they would have been un-refurbished in 79-83 so the fan speed would not/should not? vary at idle speed, unless of course it was some other piece of kit turning on and off.

Kindest

 

[mickoo]

Pugsley, Ok according to the EE dialogue I have, here's the radiator arrangement for original locos.

Class 37 - 4 radiators 2 each side of the floor mounted 90 deg gearbox, each side has an inner and an outer bank, the inner are for engine water jacket and turbo blower water cooling, the outer ones are for the charge air coolers and engine oil cooler. The slats are controlled by the driver via a switch in the cab, ie not automatic but remote control.

Class 40 - (for completness ) also double radiators (cooling groups not specified) each side of a floor mounted 90 deg gearbox, again slats controlled manually by remote control from the cab, additionally, water flow is also controlled through the radiators via a thermostatic valve.

HTH

 

[Pugsley]

Regarding refurbishment, when did this occur, as I'm talking 37/0s on freightliner trains, fairly sure they would have been un-refurbished in 79-83 so the fan speed would not/should not? vary at idle speed, unless of course it was some other piece of kit turning on and off.

The refurbishment program was 1987-88, so they would have most definitely been unrefurbished in your Ipswich days. You may have heard the compressor or exhausters cutting in and out, perhaps? I agree that you probably wouldn't hear the fan altering in speed at idle, unless the engine was hunting, I guess.

Thanks for the info regarding the slats, that's useful to know (no I'm not adding them )

 

[Dog Star]

Now that I am getting the cab front bulkhead together I have been thinking about how to get lights to the head, narker and tail lights in the nose. LEDs can be fitted behind the nose in a removable holder. I am not sure how to install fibre optic or where to put the light source for the optical fibre.

How are you doing your 37/4?

thank you, Peter.

I'm going to use tiny, surface mount, LEDs, which I'm hoping will look suitably like bulbs. For the marker and tail lights, these will be behind lenses from littlecars.com, and should look the part. The high intensity headlight will be lined with foil, and each end will have 2 LEDs, glued together in a V formation, the theory being that it will look like a bulb and reflected light - just like the real thing .

Martin,

Bridge, water, lot, under is an appropriate thought at this point.

We have ordered red and clear lenses from Little Cars for the marker and tail lights. Our current thought is to place white surface mount LEDs inside the "nose" with one LED behind each lens aperture. As neither of us have any idea about such technology, what is a description / specification / supplier for such items? The lights are going to be controlled by Loksound V4 decoders - I guess with marker lights mapped to a different function to tail lights, can the headlight use the same function as the marker lightss?

The cab interior lights which you have recommended - what is the reason for using a supplier in Germany (rather than an UK company)?

White and clear decal film - plus acrylic spray to waterproof the ink-jet lettering - ordered from Crafty Computer paper supplies.

Progress, but not at the speed which we know it etc..

regards, Graham

 

[garethevans1986]

I have access to a few different types of (12" = 1foot) locos if you need any specific pics from inside, cab or outside.

Going to see them tommorow so if you need any please get in touch by PM.

Thanks
Gareth

 

[Pugsley]

Our current thought is to place white surface mount LEDs inside the "nose" with one LED behind each lens aperture. As neither of us have any idea about such technology, what is a description / specification / supplier for such items? The lights are going to be controlled by Loksound V4 decoders - I guess with marker lights mapped to a different function to tail lights, can the headlight use the same function as the marker lights?

If you're comfortable soldering tiny wires to tiny items, both Rapid and Farnell do surface mount LEDs - you want warm white ones, have a look through their catalogues and see what takes your fancy, the sizes will be on there also.

Alternatively, you can get them on ebay with the wires already attached - this was the reason for buying them from the supplier in Germany. They were recommended to me as being very good.

 

[Dog Star]

Thank you Martin. After much ummimg and aahing I have ordered some "standard" 3mm round LEDs and some 1.8mm spigot LEDs to experiment. Now all I need to do is find out how the Loksound V4 deals with lighting circuits and (be brave enough to) mount the LEDs and resistors on veroboard and connect to a decoder. In addtion I have ordered some 0.7mm SMDs for the cab interior light. Parts from either Helmsman (thank you Boris) or DCC Supplies (suggestion via B Daniels thread over there).

I understand what you mean about LED Baron... we shall just have to see how I get on with the cab lights.

BTW - fitting ABC motor bogies is not as easy as I thought... the motor is sitting just where the cab back bulkhead is screwed to the floor. I think that I shall have to remove the floor fixing from the rear bulkhead and move the fixing point to be in front of the front bulkhead.

Why is nothing easy?

regards, Graham

 

[Pugsley]

It had it's maiden outing today, on the S7 test track at Mark. When first plonked on the track, the sound worked, but it didn't move. That was traced to the motor return wire being put into the wrong connection on the decoder. Unfortunately there are 2 motor return connections on the decoder, so the first time I moved the wire into the wrong one.

On the third attempt, two of the axles tried to move, but then it all stopped, which was really frustrating. At this stage I'm not too sure what the problem is, as both bogies worked fine when tested on DC, but it could be that the way I've wired them isn't compatible with DCC. The motors on each bogie are connected in series, and then both bogies are wired to the decoder in parallel.

The next step is to build a bit of track, get some suitable Bachrus saddles and break out the Powercab for a spot of fault finding. I guess it was too much to ask for it all to work perfectly first time...

 

[Pugsley]

Possibly, but I was going to conduct some testing on DC first as the last thing I want to do is either blow up the decoder or the motors. I think I also need to re-acquaint myself with motor theory.

Anyhow, it's back in its box on the naughty shelf at the moment, whilst I prepare a few bits and pieces for my weathering demo next weekend.