LBSCR Early Horsebox

[Jon Nazareth]

Jim
I did think about the problem of horses walking on the nuts too. However, there may have been some thick coconut mating fitted to the inside of the ramp to avoid the horses slipping and this would have hidden the nuts. Whatever system was used, I agree with you in that they are rounded heads on some sort of fixing.
I'm finding it difficult to keep the holes in the straps in a straight line even though my marking out is pretty well spot on. I think that the drill wanders a bit. I have tried with one of those small hand held drills with a sliding bobbin (can't think of the name) but not much success there either. I'm now thinking about etches but not sure what the minimum size sheet is and what else am I planning to build that will use etches .

Jon

 

[daifly]

I have tried with one of those small hand held drills with a sliding bobbin (can't think of the name)

It's an Archimedean drill
Dave

 

[Stevesopwith]

Jon
The attached photo is of the MSLR restored GER Horse Box of 1869.
The hinges have countersink bolt heads inside, and nuts on the outside. These, when painted ,and viewed from a distance do look like coach bolt heads; and I accept that a restoration may have non-original fixings.
However, inside countersunk heads and outside nuts is by far the most common fixing arrangement on my pretty extensive collection of GAs for this period.
Also the ramps had a number of horizontal battens to provide a grip for the horses

 

[Stevesopwith]

Jon
re. drilling holes in line: Have you got any sort of small pillar drill? I used a 0.5mm centre drill, and made a simple jig to locate the strip metal...... it was a block of hardwood, with two parallel strips of N/S superglued a suitable distance apart for the stock strip to slide between.
The block was then clamped with the strip central to the drill. I drilled a test hole and used it to locate a register line on the block strips. The stock strips were then marked for the hole spacings, each mark lined up with the register, and drilled.

My particular job was drilling bolt holes for fishplates in 1.5mm x 0.5mm brass for my Wantage project.... a very large number of them.....all absolutely in line, and all with the one centre drill!
It is worth stopping every couple of holes to dress back the underside burr, otherwise it can cause the strip to curve under the pressure of the next drilling if the holes are close together.

 

[mickoo]

I'm now thinking about etches but not sure what the minimum size sheet is and what else am I planning to build that will use etches .

Jon

Minimum sheet size for PPD is 300 x 150 mm with a working area (leaving an area around the outside for handling etc) of about 280 x 130 mm.

What ever your layout, try to make one side as close to 280 mm as you can, any excess space in that axis is just wastage.

Example, artwork is 210 x 130 mm then you waste a slab of 70 x 130 mm, because the art work is centred then it'll be two pieces of 35 x 130 mm, one at each end.

Mick D

 

[JimG]

I did think about the problem of horses walking on the nuts too. However, there may have been some thick coconut mating fitted to the inside of the ramp to avoid the horses slipping and this would have hidden the nuts.

Jon,

I would reckon the last thing you want under a horse is any form of coconut matting - mucking out a stable would probably give you a reason why.

Jim.

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

Jon,

I would reckon they would be coach bolts. I've enlarged the picture and using dividers, it looks as though the bolt head is slightly wider than half the strap width, so maybe about 1.6mm if you are using 3mm wide strap.

(Later) On second thoughts, it looks as though the lower door, when lowered, would have horses walking on it, so bolt ends and nuts would not really be the best bet. So they could be rivets with washer plates and countersunk ends on the inside to be flush on the washer plates..



Jim.

Looking at the pictures enlarged as far as I can before pixilation takes over they look to be square. However I am sure they will be nuts rather than the heads of coach bolts. The head of the bolt will be countersunk into the wood on the inside and the nuts are all tightened up to lie in the same orientation. The protruding threads may have been peened over with a hammer to prevent the nuts slackening which would make the nut look like the head of a coach bolt.

I don't think that rivets were used in wood/steel composite construction. The process of setting the second head caused the shank to shorten and expand to fill the hole. Wood does not have the rigidity to resist that expansion.

Ian

 

[Mike W]

Rivets were used on composite wood/metal construction, but the only example I know of was the cornerplates of LNWR wagons pre-1905-ish and I am not suggesting there were used on this horsebox. Curiously, the LNWR used rivets on the thin cornerplates only and not the thicker strapping itself, which was bolted from the inside.

Mike

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Thanks to you all for the very helpful comments and advice. I shall now use some sort of nut on the outside and definitely make up a jig in order to get those holes in a line.

Jon

 

[Jon Nazareth]

The row of fixings through the curb rail and below the door look to me to be the heads of coach bolts with a washer under. What does the team think?
I've looked on the drawing of the larger box but can't really make out what they are. Any ideas would be much appreciated.

Jon

 

[Jon Nazareth]

I used a 0.5mm centre drill,

Steve
Could you tell me, where you bought your 0.5mm centre drill, please? I've looked at Arc Euro Trade but they don't go down that small.

Jon

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

The row of fixings through the curb rail and below the door look to me to be the heads of coach bolts with a washer under. What does the team think?
I've looked on the drawing of the larger box but can't really make out what they are. Any ideas would be much appreciated.

Jon

Hi Jon,

These are most probably nuts and washers on the ends of threaded rod which goes right across the van from side to side. There would be nuts on either end and these tie rods keep all the timber joints in compression.

Ian

 

[JimG]

Could you tell me, where you bought your 0.5mm centre drill, please? I've looked at Arc Euro Trade but they don't go down that small.

I get my milling cutters from Drill Service and they have a huge stock of centre drills. Here's their HSS page

Metal Cutting Tools - Reamers, Small Hole Drilling, Drill Bits - Drill Service UK

... with an 0.5mm pilot centre drill near the top. Note the others with a 0.3mm pilot, but at a price.

If you want to delve through their complete range...

Centre & Spotting Drills, Centre Spot Reamer Suppliers | Drill Service

Jim.

 

[JimG]

These are most probably nuts and washers on the ends of threaded rod which goes right across the van from side to side. There would be nuts on either end and these tie rods keep all the timber joints in compression.

Jon,

I've just found an example of what Ian refers to in a GA of a Caledonian 6T van



Jim.

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Jim
Thanks for the drawing and the address of Drill Service UK. I've been onto their site and ordered the centre drill plus some micro drills.

Jon

 

[JimG]

Jim
Thanks for the drawing and the address of Drill Service UK. I've been onto their site and ordered the centre drill plus some micro drills.

Jon,

If you've ordered carbide micro drills, watch out since the small sizes are very fragile and don't go well with hand held tools - like pin vices or Dremel style powered tools. They really should be used in a machine tool - pillar drill, mill or lathe. HSS is more forgiving.

Jim.

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Yes, I did order HSS centres and twist drills

Jon

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Here's a picture of the horsebox so far and not very easy photographing something white.
I've yet to fit the beading onto the ends and I should have fitted the hinge straps etc. while it was still in sections, next time maybe. I was going to fit the inner casements after painting but finally decided that it may be easier to make and fit at this stage.

I'm working on fitting the bits and pieces to the underframe and have realised that either I've made the cant/curb rail too fat or I've got the sole bars too far out. After fitting the W irons et al, I think that I'll be doing a little bit of carving to get things to fit. It's underneath so, I'm hoping it won't show.

The body of the horsebox is made from 1mm thick stuff and it does look a bit transparent in that picture, I hope it won't when the roof is on .

Jon

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Back onto this one again. I've been machining up some brake block blanks and these can be seen in the accompanying pictures. There are two lots of eight and I'm hoping that there won't be any mistakes so that I will have enough for two vehicles, this horsebox and possibly a passenger brakevan, fingers crossed. The next job will be to roughly cut them to length and then shape.

Jon

 

[Jon Nazareth]

Brake shoes!!! These have had me chasing my tail and more but something here to show you. These are the shoes for the horsebox. I've only managed to clean up one but if these go wrong, I have eight to do, then it will be an early horsebox built without brakes! The first picture shows a sandwich of 'filing button', roughly cleaned shoe, 'filing button'. I've put the filing button in inverted commas as it doesn't actually revolve. These 'buttons' were, very kindly, cut out by Jamie Page on his pantograph, and I am in his debt even if I get the next ones wrong . This is the second set that he has cut as I was having troubles case hardening , even after following the instructions on the tin to the letter...but that's another story. The next two pictures are the finished brake shoe beside one that has been cut out from the ring shown in the previous post. Even if I say so myself, it's come out okay, thanks Jamie, only another 15 to go. Yes, there is another vehicle and it's a brake van, waiting in the wings.

Jon