Mickoo's BR modelling

[mickoo]

Ozzy, you could be right, though the lever on the drivers side might be for the grate, certainly there is a linkage on both sides under the cab that would match this lever in the cab, or, that lever could be for the sanding gear whos linkage also comes out of the front clothing just above the reversing rod on the drivers side.

The LNER Pacifics (I've researched so far) did use a Bowden (thanks Steph, can't think why I wrote Belden as I've wired enough of the stuff over the years to know better!) cable, like you I was surprised to discover this. There's two, one to pull open the cocks and the other to close, they run to a rotary cam down under the middle cylinder whos rotary motion is converted to linear for the inside cocks and through linkages to the outside ones, I'll grab a quick photo of the relevant section on the W1 GA and a photo of the front end where the linkage goes outside that I grabbed on Mallard the other week, it is one part I want to model so took some detailed shots.

The Bowden cable cam is certainly on the firemans side (A3, A4, W1 so is not drivers side related) of the loco between the frames, and it would make sense to have the other end on the drivers side, but you would think that maybe it would be the firemans duty? or he would also have a lever as well. The W1 GA is very detailed so I'll look at that tonight, though there is no certanty that A3 and A4 follow suit at the cab end, I'll just have to wait for those GA's to be delivered....hopefully very soon

The AWS wiring was, as far as I can ascertain, always on the drivers side, certainly on A1, A3 and A4 classes and was clipped to the footplate valance and consisted mainly of 1" conduit by the look of things, certainly the junction boxes and fittings look like old conduit I used to work on.

The rod you note, I'm guessing it's the curved bit under the footplate in front of the wheel? If so that isn't a rod, it's a right angled piece of steel bolted to the bottom of the footplate to reinforce the splasher side where it joins the footplate, again a detail I need to add, but which Richard has already done on Diamond Jubilee. It is required on all three splashers and is visible from low viewing angles.

The footstep will cover the gap on the outside but not the front as it crosses the footplate toward the middle of the loco, it's only a small gap but you can see daylight through it from normal 'gods eye' viewing and it looks out of place. I'm not happy with it, so it has to be filled

Nice photo of the firebox, sadly a 107 boiler though, the demise of many a A3 in their later years as the extra weight did their frames in. It does show the extra washout plug added to 107 and 94 boilers at the front corner. The image does also show an extra hole in the clothing, several locos have these over the years (differing sizes, locations and shapes) and I'm not sure what they are for, RTCS mentions something about a hand hold but it looks the wrong shape and size for a hand hold, besides theres a great big handrail just above.

Speaking of which, the handrail knobs have massive bases and seem unique to Flying Scotsman.

 

[mickoo]

A little research reveals thus.

On the drivers side is the sanding lever, on the A3 this is a lever and rod, on the A4 and W1 it is another Bowden cable set up.

On the firemans side is the cylinder cocks, on all three classes they are Bowden cables.

The W1 GA showing front end arrangement


And plan view


Early A3 and A4 were the same but in later years one pipe went to each side, so from the front looking back instead of 2-2-2 you had 3-0-3. From research so far, it appears that the W1 retained this set up...certainly up until 1958.

Rear end at cab


And plan view


This looks identical to the A4, which the rebuilt W1 was based on, it also looks very close to the A3 arrangement, certainly the cab side view showing both cable conduits exiting the firebox area around the rear wheel area.

In the cab on the firemans side


The lever is marked steam cocks 'open and 'shut'

On the drivers side.


There are no markings but the arrangement matches exactly the W1 sanding lever arrangement.

Up front underneath Mallard


The middle cylinder with steam cocks in the centre and the cross shaft from the Bowden cam at far left and just hidden behind the vacuum pipe

A view to the left a little


The linkage from the cam to the outside cylinder cock linkages with the shaft running across, the large stay is the bogie pivot support stay and the axle box to the left is the firemans trailing bogie wheel.

On the A4 you can just see the middle cylinder steam cocks and given our much larger wheel clearances on models I'll add something in there on the A3 to make it look like there's something in there as well as part of the Bowden cam and linkages.



One thing to be careful with GA's is that they tend to show a view as if the locomotive were cut in half, a bit disconcerting if it is a four cylinder loco and your looking for both middle cylinder cranks as you'll only see one. In the above shot we can clearly see the Bowden cable, cam and linkages, but have already deduced that they are fitted to the firemans side, I.E the right hand side, so, in theory should not show up in the above GA.

The GA is actually for a A1, the first of the class, and as such would have been right hand drive, so the cylinder cock Bowden cable would have correctly been on the left side and thus visible in this GA.

 

[OzzyO]

Thanks for that Mike, for AICRm both the sanders and drain cocks have always been under the control of the driver.

In your third drawing it lets you know what the odd shaped cut-out in the firebox clothing is for, look at the parts A & B.

We all live and learn.

OzzyO.

 

[mickoo]

AICRm

AIRCm, lost me there I'm afraid

In your third drawing it lets you know what the odd shaped cut-out in the firebox clothing is for, look at the parts A & B.

We all live and learn.

OzzyO.

Blimey, so it does, greasing points for the Bowden cables

 

[Scale7JB]

If it helps at all, the drain cocks are operated by a lever on the firemans side of the cab on the N2...

JB.

 

[OzzyO]

AIRCm As far as I can remember. How the £u(£ did I get that. I know it was an anagram!

 

[OzzyO]

Hello Mick,

I'm looking at going to the N.R.M. on the 20/5/15 to look at some G/As. I've got the boxes booked. In the past I've always get the full size drawings or A0.
But I've noticed the following on the order form, down load (free) what are these like if you have used them and how big are they? Would this be at the cost of a digital scan?
CD, I think that you have used these before, do you just highlight the part that you want to print off the drawing? So would that be the cost of the digital scan per drawing.
You can also get a digital copy of the scan of any size print for £10.00, that could be very handy for working from the drawing and zooming in on the drawing.

Sorry about all of the questions, but at a cost of between £28.50 and £30.00 per drawing plus £10.00 if I get a digital copy as well, I want to get it right.

TFAH,

OzzyO.

 

[Steph Dale]

Ozzy,
The digital copies are of the whole drawing at a suitable resolution for direct printing at full size, should you have access to a printer of that size.
These days I don't bother with paper copies, just load the scans straight in to my CAD software and off I go...
Steph

 

[mickoo]

Ozzy,

Yup, Steph has it in a nut shell, when you order a digital copy it's massive, usually about 14,000 x 10,000 pixels, suitable for 1:1 printing in A0.

Some of the original drawings are not Ao but a smaller size, these will be reduced digitally to match and retain the 1:1 ratio for printing.

Drawings come in two guises, original paper ones and microfiche, but not much is on micro fiche as I just found out the last time I visited, the cost of a digital copy from microfiche is significantly cheaper than a digtal copy from a paper copy.

Typically if I remember the prices, about £6 for a digital copy from fiche, £25 for a digital copy from paper and £30 for a paper copy. I didn't see the £10 digital plus paper option and may have taken that on a couple I wanted rather than printing...below.

My latest order is part fiche and part paper (all digital copies) and I have opted for the email attachment shipping method, previously I used to opt for CD, so it will be interesting to see how that system works, delivery is usually four to six weeks so mine should be here soon and I will let you know.

I am lucky in that our drawing office can print A0 and larger, some of the ships hold diagrams are massive for stowage planning as well as some drawings I've seen of HV ducting and substation plans for the container parks, I'll probably get one or two printed, no need to whip a willing horse but the rest I'll follow Stephs route and simply import into CAD (When I learn how to do this as a separate layer, Autocad seems particularly reticent at doing this.....easily!) or just cut and paste the area I'm working on and print in A3.

Hope that helps

Mick

 

[JimG]

Typically if I remember the prices, about £6 for a digital copy from fiche,

It's now up to £7.50 per digital copy from the microfiche archive. I've just ordered up some more Caledonian coach drawings and that was the price on the order form I downloaded a day or two ago.

But the quality seems to be getting better and better and every time I get some digital copies, the resolution seems to have been increased yet again.

Jim.

 

[SimonT]

Mick is right in giving the price as £25 for a digital image. The download from their place in the cloud was no trouble and the image has gone into Rhino very easily.
Simon

 

[OzzyO]

Thanks Guys for all of the heads up, for this order I think that I'll go for paper and CD.

OzzyO.

 

[mickoo]

Just a small update, real life, other interests and commitments have kept me away from the A3 for some time, probably just as well as there are still more problems uncovered along the way.

An overall view of progress thus far, the cab roof, dome (streamlined, not banjo! There is a distinct difference, in shape and period fitted) and chimney are not fixed yet.


Close up of problem one, the lower firebox handrail....not yet fixed for good reason....holes are not level, problem is the difference is too small to make a new hole close by and fill this one, but if you open up each end to compensate then you'll be left with a little gap between the knob and clothing that'll need filling.


The other side handrail is the same and I still need to fix the washout plug cover spigots.


Another problem along the way is the incorrect location for the washout plugs and mud hole doors, in the above shot you can see that the firebox clothing band has had to be trimmed to go around these, on the real loco there is some trimming, but on the model you need to trim twice as much to get the band to fit straight.

Moving forward the front hand rail holes are also in the wrong place.


There should be a small kick up or virtually level, on the model it's about a 30° kick, luckily there is another plate to go over this, though it also has holes in the wrong place, but is easily flipped 180° existing holes filled and new ones drilled in the correct place.

Future problem ahead, the smokebox saddle.


Poorly cast and hardly fits, not withstanding that, it's also the wrong size and shape, I'd already resigned to making a new one but here's proof if I even need that I'm not wasting my time.

Still at the front end, the chimney, it'll be opened out and you'll be able to see part way in there, I'm not doing a full smoke box or having the front door open, I'd like to but there would be issues getting a tube plate the right size in there now and truth be told, I want done with this now. However I will have to add some sort of blast pipe affair so that when viewed from above you can just make out a hint of it when peering down the chimney.


Finally, something that went almost right, the cut out for the reversing rod and sanding lever, early locos had two slots here in the clothing, in later years they just enlarged it to one large slot.


Overall, I'm still not happy with the small gap between the footplate and firebox, I've spent days and I mean 'days' tweaking, bending and re-bending the footplate to minimise this as much as possible but the gap is really pi55ing me off, several times I've found the big iron in my hand charged with a big blob of solder to fix and fill, but so far I've always bottled it, in the naive idea that a removable boiler is desirable.

Some of the boiler rivets are wearing a little after all the handling and near misses with sand paper etc, I'll probably take them all off and go with decal rivets toward the end.

The firebox base and grate will be next and there's already foreseen issues down there, but maybe that'll help distract the eye from the gap above

 

[JimG]

Close up of problem one, the lower firebox handrail....not yet fixed for good reason....holes are not level, problem is the difference is too small to make a new hole close by and fill this one, but if you open up each end to compensate then you'll be left with a little gap between the knob and clothing that'll need filling.

Mick,

Can't you solder a small piece of brass sheet behind the hole you want to move, drill through the hole and the sheet behind and insert and solder a piece of brass rod/wire in the hole. Then cut off and file flush, then mark the correct hole centre and re-drill.

Jim.

 

[Scale7JB]

Mick, move on from the gap mate...

By the time you're got primer and paint on there......

JB.

 

[mickoo]

Mick, move on from the gap mate...

By the time you're got primer and paint on there......

JB.

By the time you're got primer and paint on there......the gap will still be there!

It's there now, it'll be there then and it'll always be there

If the boiler and firebox were staying fixed to the footplate then the gap would probably fill with primer and paint, but as the boiler is to be painted separately then once joined back to the footplate the gap will re-appear.

There are many things I can turn a blind eye too, but gaps are not one of them, in fact gaps is one of the biggest pet hates of mine, gaps between tender sides and footplates, cab sides and footplates, boilers and saddle, domes and boilers etc, all, are not necessary and many would not be accepted by a great many here. Gaps are followed closely by non uniform curves and bends, sorry, but the 'gap' must go.

To quote the master 'Yoda' there is no try there is only do, or, do not

There is a gap on the real loco but it's in the footplate, the firebox clothing extends down past the footplate, in reality I shouldn't of been such a lazy git way back a few months ago and should of cut the footplate accordingly. In fact the more I think about it, that's probably what I'll end up doing.

Cut the footplate correctly, add a backing piece to the firebox and extend the clothing prototypically to just below the footplate, then the gap, the 'correct' gap, will be in the right place and the smart - dumb balance will be restored

Gap before clothing applied, note narrow footplate in this area, note also firebox is not fully 'sat' down here, but is still suspended by a crane whilst they make 'technical' adjustments to make it all fit You can also just see the inside of the ash pan and the sloped floor that funnels the ash down between the frames.


And fully clothed


Note small gap between footplate and firebox clothing, the clothing extends about 2-4" below the footplate and also goes around the front, I touched on this area previously and the kit is wrong here as well.

Couple of other modelling moments in the photo above, the hole in the footplate for the drain cock Bowden cables to pass through as well as small patch over the lubricating points for said cable, and finally the small patch below the footplate that joins the two halves together, in fact there are two, one below each mud hole door, the thickening of the footplate here is quite evident.

The only other alternative is to paint everything, button it all back up tight and remove the gap with a thin bead of paint hand brushed in, but that'll be susceptible to cracking and breaking through handling and the footplate flexing.

So back to the gap, it must, and it will, go! How that is achieved is not yet decided

 

[mickoo]

Mick,

Can't you solder a small piece of brass sheet behind the hole you want to move, drill through the hole and the sheet behind and insert and solder a piece of brass rod/wire in the hole. Then cut off and file flush, then mark the correct hole centre and re-drill.

Jim.

Jim, yes that is probably what I will do, I shouldn't have to, don't really want to, but expect that's what's coming in the near future

The other alternative is to fill one hole and then drill a new level one but spaced either further or closer to miss the filled one.

 

[Scale7JB]

Having seen those pictures, I tell you what...

The gap has got to go...

JB.

 

[mickoo]

Having seen those pictures, I tell you what...

The gap has got to go...

JB.

LOL, I came away from my last posting thinking I'd kinda cut you off at the knees, but then thought, I didn't see any gaps in your boilers or fireboxes on your award winning models at Telford or even your raw L1 before paint, I'm no where near that level and probably will never be, but gaps will not be one of my pitfalls

The last close up also shows how bad the Cartazzi spring castings are, but by eye they look ok, modern digital close ups are a real eye opener and show a lot more than the naked eye can see, and being as this forum is the only medium to view each others work you tend to think it's not good, where as in reality it looks much better in the flesh.

I also noticed a crack in the cab side sheet with all the flexing and on and off of the boiler, that's now filled and I've tweaked the footplate again so that the firemans side sits a bit better, the drivers side I was already about 75% happy with, certainly from the bending metal perspective.

I've also noticed a small nick in the filler solder where the firebox throat plate meets the boiler barrel, that'll need sorting before I'm finished.

 

[Scale7JB]

Oh get off, you're well ahead now, you just have to remember, I cheat with easy narrow round topped boilers....

But not for long. Got a couple of wide fire boxes coming up soon (ish)..

JB