Mickoo's BR modelling

adrian

Flying Squad
What a waste of time, it's bloody hard this copper cable LOL, so out with the big guns.
Nice result with the beading - another technique to add to my toolbox. For jobs like this the big files should be the first choice - I find it much easier to maintain a smooth level finish with the bigger files - it's easier to see that they are being held level compared to a needle file.
 

Rob Pulham

Western Thunderer
Hi Mick,

Mine too has the smaller cab opening, from what I recall the cut out was made deeper alongwith some other changes in the mid/late 30's. The DJH kit did mention this in the instructions and there might even have been a template to cut out the deeper opening.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Nice result with the beading - another technique to add to my toolbox. For jobs like this the big files should be the first choice - I find it much easier to maintain a smooth level finish with the bigger files - it's easier to see that they are being held level compared to a needle file.
Thank you, though all the credit goes to Mr 'O' I just dabbled with his idea LOL

Next on my tool list are some large finer cut Vellorbes, specifically because of their large area to ensure things are flat, flat and square are not skills that come easily to me LOL.
 
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mickoo

Western Thunderer
Hi Mick,

Mine too has the smaller cab opening, from what I recall the cut out was made deeper alongwith some other changes in the mid/late 30's. The DJH kit did mention this in the instructions and there might even have been a template to cut out the deeper opening.
Rob, from that angle yours looks like it has the deep opening, deep cut outs are the same depth as the side windows, small cut outs are about half depth.

The deep cut out was the original format but they were changed when bucket seats were added and the turn in was raised 11" to reduce draughts, the instruction went fleet wide in August 38 for all locos to be modified.
 

Rob Pulham

Western Thunderer
Rob, from that angle yours looks like it has the deep opening, deep cut outs are the same depth as the side windows, small cut outs are about half depth.

The deep cut out was the original format but they were changed when bucket seats were added and the turn in was raised 11" to reduce draughts, the instruction went fleet wide in August 38 for all locos to be modified.

You are right Mick, I have just checked back through the instructions - I must have cut some out but I can't remember it:oops:
 

adrian

Flying Squad
Next on my tool list are some large finer cut Vellorbes, specifically because of their large area to ensure things are flat, flat and square are not skills that come easily to me LOL.
Didn't come easily to me either but first few weeks at college was practical work. First was filing practice - 2 pieces of 1/2" thick steel bar cut into 2"x2" sections. One piece to be marked and cut into a T shape, the second into a U shape. After cutting and filing they had to slot together into a 2"X2" size and when held upto the light nothing to visible along the joints!! It took some students 3 days to get two pieces to fit, you quickly learn how to file square and flat!!
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Didn't come easily to me either but first few weeks at college was practical work. First was filing practice - 2 pieces of 1/2" thick steel bar cut into 2"x2" sections. One piece to be marked and cut into a T shape, the second into a U shape. After cutting and filing they had to slot together into a 2"X2" size and when held upto the light nothing to visible along the joints!! It took some students 3 days to get two pieces to fit, you quickly learn how to file square and flat!!

Yup, I did an engineering apprentice ship, ours was a copper soldering iron, old school one that you stuck in a furnace to heat up, it was inch bar and had to be filed 20x20 mm Sq and about 75 mm long & flat and square on all sides with a taper half way along one face to make a chisel point.

Flat had to be 'flat' as in 'on a bluing table', we used to cheat and add more oil to the blue, but the instructors (they'd seen it all before) would scrape it off and make up their own mix, that's bloody hard work making it that flat and square and to some stupid high tolerance on all dimensions. After that you drilled a M10 hole in the back end to a precise depth, hand threaded it and then made a tang, to a set length, thread and tang and added a handle. The hole had to be dead centre, they measured from the inserted tang face to each corner of the copper part and again to said silly tolerance.

We had three weeks to do that....and most needed it, some of us did it in just under three and then there was a second task of making a centre finder.

The Part II course was machine tools and that was to even higher laughable tolerances.

But all that was over 30 years ago, I've never forgotten the course, but the hand-skill co-ordination you loose over time, never had to apply any of it to real world work, but I suppose it was the discipline that they were teaching.
 
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demu1037

Western Thunderer
. After that you drilled a M10 hole in the back end to a precise depth, hand threaded it and then made a tang, to a set length, thread and tang and added a handle. .

What??? - you didn't have to make the tap - to BSW tolerances?
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
What??? - you didn't have to make the tap - to BSW tolerances?
Sorry to disappoint but I'm afraid not, they cut that bit out of the course a couple of years before I joined, as well as wood turning the handle ;).

Some lecturers felt the course had been diluted just a touch 'too' much :rolleyes:

I shouldn't laugh, but one poor lad dropped his in the second week and put a big ding in one edge, his was 19x19x75 mm in the end LOL.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Moving on with the cab, the drivers side was finished off, the beading was a little better, but not perfect, it'll do for this model :thumbs:

The cab roof was next, the supplied one was incorrect in many aspects so a new one was scratch built from some 0.010". The rivets were gently marked on the underside before rolling and the ventilator cut out marked but not cut, the reason for this is added strength when rolling and ensuring that the roof rolls to a constant radius through out. The removable panel at the top rear was also marked but not fully skrawked out until after rolling.

To help achieve a constant radius I back the work with thick card which makes the lead in and lead out roll to a curve as well, if not then the last few mm spring out between the rollers and you end up with a short flat section.

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The card also protects the soft punched rivets.

Once rolled to the correct radius, the ventilator cut out area was removed, the rivets fully punched with the press and removable panel marked out ready for trial fitting.

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For a first pass it fits pretty good, square front and back and the same height fore and aft...a pet hate of mine....cab roofs that tilt back, usually because the curve is a different (larger) radius to the front and often accompanied by the rear end of the cab wall splaying out.

The rivets on the roof vary drastically over the years and between locos, as I haven't yet decided on a specific loco then I've opted for a generic set of fittings, it's also dashed hard to find photos that look down on steam loco cabs.

Next up is hopefully the ventilator housing on top and gutter, then it's onto some basic detailing underneath the roof, again this seems to vary, certainly on 4472 which has had about three different styles of internal bracing and fixing under there.

There's a small flange on the top of the cab side walls for fixing to the roof underside, that needs tweaking to fit the roof radius better and should be riveted so I'll add some to that to give the eye something to catch.
I also need to think about some window frames, there are none are supplied in the kit that I can find, so again some scratch building required. Both front and rear windows slide on the 1:1 but I'll just have the rear ones open, as well as the roof ventilator....it was a real hot summer in 62 ;)

On the Chassis a new stretcher has been added below the drag box, for the mounting of injectors, AWS reservoirs and timing cylinders, all little details to flesh out that area.

All being well late tomorrow I'll probably dab some 100°C in each corner to hold it all in place and remove the ugly tape and then size it all up by eye to make sure it's all perfectly square and fitting correctly before tearing it back down to detail the insides.

To finish, a overhead shot showing new cab and supplied cab roof, I think it looks better, besides I had nothing else better to do for a couple of hours this evening, and it was only my second attempt, some progress there then :rolleyes: and the pile of waste etch is not getting so large as quick as it used too :thumbs:

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More next time folks.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Just a small update, finished the cab roof exterior and added some little clips to hold it in place for the time being, it'll be fixed rigid once the cab interior is finished.

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Then it was onto the firebox and coned section of the boiler, they actually fit together quite well but in other areas there were problems, at the base of the firebox it was too narrow so the clothing had to be spaced out a little to get the right width, I'm also not convinced it sits right, the 'hump' at the throat plate should be about 1.3mm higher than at the cab front, mines about 1mm and that 0.3mm seems to show a little, the parallel pair of wash out plugs also have a little slant forward, they should both be the same height from the rail head yet the front one looks down a little.

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There's sod all I can do abut it now and the cut outs in the boiler over the rear splashers need quite a lot of work so it all sat nicely, even so the drivers side needs a little more work. Ideally I should of taken a slice off the top rear of the splasher, it has a bevelled edge on the real thing, but even doing that the boiler would not have sat down correctly, again little I could do about it.

I did at one point think I should fill the big hole in the bottom for the motor as mine will be in the firebox but decided that all these modifications were achieving very little, time to just finish it and move on :thumbs:
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Well another little update, really wanted the boiler structure basically done before swapping back to the W1 CAD work, so after the last few nights work and progress decided to tackle the front part of the boiler and smokebox, and this is where the law of sod, the law of diminishing returns and the smart dump / balance equation crop up, e.g. when something smart happens, then something equally dumb has to occur to maintain galactic balance and harmony.

First is the law of sod, the front part was already pre rolled, no problem, except the instructions mention rivets to press out and holes to drill (marked on the inside), which basically means that it has to be unrolled to achieve the above mention work, marvellous!

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So having rolled it flat enough to work on, the relevant rivets were punched and holes drilled, and the whole rolled back up cylindrical. The only problem was that the previous rolling work didn't use a backing sheet so your left with two ruddy great flat bits where the seam will be, the end result end on looks like a partially flat tyre :eek:, despite adding a backing piece this time it didn't undo the previous misdemeanour's, not very well anyway.

So having rolled it all up and soldered the end plates in we now come to the smart dumb / balance equation.

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On the right the cone section, on the left the parallel section, note special holes designed and drawn with great accuracy to allow you to bolt the two halves together for soldering square, the smart bit!

Now the dumb bit

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On the left the parallel section turned the other way around showing the front, what one has in effect made is a sealed tube with no recourse to add screws or tighten nuts, just brilliant :rolleyes:

All of which means that I'll have to cut a big hole in the front disc to get the bolts in to allow it to be soldered up all square, it's not too much of a problem as there is another disc to go on the front as a backing to the firebox door, so, why wasn't a bigger hole etched here in the first place as the two neat fixing holes are not required for anything else :confused:

Now we come to the law of diminishing returns, all of the above pales into insignificance when we get to the parallel section seam!

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It's that magic 1 mm error cropping up again :rant:I know it's on the bottom of the boiler but after all the work on the chassis this cannot go in like this, it is the right diameter and matches the cone section perfectly, it's just that the wrapped is too small. Worse yet the previous rolling with out a backing sheet has buckled the seamed edges and try as I might they really didn't want to flatten out.

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So when viewed at low angles you can see this horrid mess under the boiler between the splashers, The only viable solution is to open out the front as best I can, try and straighten the seam as best possible, add a backing sheet, fill the slot with a suitable sliver of brass and attack with the monster file to make it semi round.

In hindsight I suppose as soon as the gap was evident I should of simply rolled the boiler flat and marked up a new one, riveted and drilled and rolled to suit, it may come to that, attack this with the blow torch and start again. In the above images you can also see the bleeding great hole in the cone section for the motor, really, really not happy about that at all and may even plate that and redo the rear splashers with bevelled top as noted last night, but then the law of diminishing returns is rearing it's head, how much more do you do.

Other than that, it's all going swimmingly.

I've now learned not to buy kits with pre rolled components, or to buy kits started by someone else, basically I shouldn't really buy any kits at all :rolleyes: Which leaves me looking at the big pile of boxes under the desk and seriously asking myself where the hell does one go from here, because, all bar one will require at least as much work as this A3 and some even more to get what I want :(
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
That's why I left the Finney 28xx where it was... ;)

JB.
But at least the Finney bits, that were untouched....would of fitted!

I thought I'd just do one last bit before packing up this evening, which was to put the boiler in the lathe and 'gently' mark a nice circular line on the front to cut out......... lets just say, that some where in the galaxy, some one else must have done something REALLY smart :rant: I don't need any more incidents like that to put it down for another day :eek:
 

Ian@StEnochs

Western Thunderer
Mick,

I have experienced boilers which don't roll up as a complete cylinder too. My solution is to use a strip of milled brass Tee section inserted from the inside with the leg through the gap. You can hold the strip in pliers, by the leg, and pull it tight up to the inside of the boiler while tack soldering. It then a simple job to solder both sides and clean off with a big flat file finally finishing with a strip of emery. This has the added bonus of shaping off the flats left in the rolling process too. Invisible when painted!

Trying to hold a flat strip inside while soldering is not an easy task so I have now adopted the method for scratch built boilers too. For them I file a little groove to take the strip in the end formers and solder to one to hold it. The strip is left over long and trimmed after soldering the lot up.

Hope this helps.

Ian.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
I need a teenie weenie bit more than that to formulate a cohesive reply ;)

Basically, if I want MoK quality, which I now find I do, then I will have to buy MoK kits, where MoK do not stock what I'm looking for then it would be better for me to scratch build or CAD up artwork to the equivalent, rather than taking something cheaper and expending hundreds of man hours getting what I want.

Virtually all kits out there are designed around finescale, that's fine as that's where the bigger market is, but it does mean that for me (and it is my choice!) the whole chassis apart from the frames is all but junk, all the stays, cylinders and motion brackets are incorrectly made to offset the narrower frames.

If it were just the frames, which whilst a big task would still not be too much of an issue, but then you add in the footplate, splashers, smokebox saddle and anything else compromised by the narrow frames your getting close to wasting a lot of time, then add on top of that other inbuilt errors where bits simply do not fit, bits that have no bearing on the frame size you do or should really question what on earth you are doing.

The other alternative is just to accept all the errors, build as such and just get on with it.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Ian,

Ordinarily that would work really well, the problem I have is that the gap is over 1 mm wide, so it'd be a hefty T piece to fit in there as you suggest.

When I add my backing strips I turn the boiler upside down and slide it over a wooden dowl that then supports the backing strip inside the boiler: I then flood solder from the outside and add a final packing piece if the depth and width are too great for a simple solder fill.
 
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