warren haywood
Western Thunderer
Mick, have a look at these www.scalehardware.com , time consuming but they do look the part
Warren
Warren
Mickoo's BR modelling
- Thread starter mickoo
- Start date
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Mick,
Your GW rivetter will have three die/anvil sets so I cautiously suggest trying all 3 before reserving judgement.
I agree that the scale hardware stuff is good, but even in 7mm many of their range is a little on the large size and can make a model look very 'heavy' if overdone.
Don't forget that for smaller sizes a length of wire in a hole makes a very good nut or bolt. Still time-consuming though!
Steph
Your GW rivetter will have three die/anvil sets so I cautiously suggest trying all 3 before reserving judgement.
I agree that the scale hardware stuff is good, but even in 7mm many of their range is a little on the large size and can make a model look very 'heavy' if overdone.
Don't forget that for smaller sizes a length of wire in a hole makes a very good nut or bolt. Still time-consuming though!
Steph
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Steph, three die and two anvil (or is it the other way around?) in my set and no matter what combination I use they come out very pointed and not rivet shape like at all really. Can't remember what the third die is for but the other two are 4mm and 7mm to match the anvils, will have another play this evening whence I return home 
Your right on scale hardware, I'd be looking at almost the smallest size to replicate frame rivets, anything smaller (bodywork) would have to be punched and as I intend to use Plasticard that will be another ball game altogether.
Your right on scale hardware, I'd be looking at almost the smallest size to replicate frame rivets, anything smaller (bodywork) would have to be punched and as I intend to use Plasticard that will be another ball game altogether.
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Um, yes, might have been us.
Martin Finney has more than one size of half-etch depression and we found that on one of his loco kits (a) the rivet punch would not locate reliably before starting to push on the remaining metal (hence rivets go out of line) and (b) the rivet punch might bear on the whole thickness material before completing the "rivet" (hence adding to the distortion). Some new rivet punch / anvil sets were made for us and the difference in the rivet punches is:-
* rounded nose rather than the taper point;
* parallel shank to the punch.
Now this design of punch works great for a specific thickness of material (plus / minus a few gnat's whiskers) and loses accuracy in alignment if the material is much thinner than normal - this is a result of having a parallel shank to the punch. So we have a "small" rivet set for material of circa 10-12 thou thickness and a "not-so-small" set for material of circa 18-22thou thickness.
regards, Graham
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Graham, ah ha thats the ticket, all coming back to me now LOL. The 08 should have different sized half etches, not checked those in detail yet, so will suffer from the same issue I think, the chassis rivets are much bigger than body ones so one presumes they will be different on the kit, again, need to double check when I get home, I also seem to recall seeing different sizes on the Jubilee tender as well, so it may be a common trait amoungst certain kit producers.
To my mind it is the punch/ die which forms the shape, the anvil being there to form the circular part and make a neat edge to the rivet, thus a round nose punch in a standard 7mm anvil should produced a more domed rivet.
I believe the anvil determines the size of the rivet and it is these that are for each scale, 2mm, 4mm and 7mm so why two dies, they look identical to me, thus one may be a spare and can have the tip rounded off?
Regarding accuracy, does your riveter have the compound table affair with clamp? That shoul ensure accuracy and prevent the die skipping off to where ever you dont want it to go.
I presume your parallel shank will produce a more pan head appearance, where as I'm looking for more like a 456 (attached) or truss head, actually it'd be nice to get dies for quite a few of these types of rivet head.
Will go search for your original post as I believe you posted photos and such, thanks for the added info, very informative, there is obviously more milage in this.
To my mind it is the punch/ die which forms the shape, the anvil being there to form the circular part and make a neat edge to the rivet, thus a round nose punch in a standard 7mm anvil should produced a more domed rivet.
I believe the anvil determines the size of the rivet and it is these that are for each scale, 2mm, 4mm and 7mm so why two dies, they look identical to me, thus one may be a spare and can have the tip rounded off?
Regarding accuracy, does your riveter have the compound table affair with clamp? That shoul ensure accuracy and prevent the die skipping off to where ever you dont want it to go.
I presume your parallel shank will produce a more pan head appearance, where as I'm looking for more like a 456 (attached) or truss head, actually it'd be nice to get dies for quite a few of these types of rivet head.
Will go search for your original post as I believe you posted photos and such, thanks for the added info, very informative, there is obviously more milage in this.
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Not here, over there.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Well the journey begineth, Etch 0, Piecing saw 1 
it's so much more fun with the right tools!
Started on the footplate tonight, the drill table performed admirably as a bending table, lots of bends on this large piece and all turned out well, so much so that I had to chamfer the side valance with the buffer beam to get a nice crisp corner joint.
The soldering iron ESRA-80 works well but the tip is monstrous and almost impossible to get into the 90° crease to give the join a little strength, so some new tips are in order me thinks, or file the old ones on the Weller to suite specialist jobs like that.
Nothing much to see yet, but a start has been made, I am now officially part of the 'doing' club LOL
it's so much more fun with the right tools!Started on the footplate tonight, the drill table performed admirably as a bending table, lots of bends on this large piece and all turned out well, so much so that I had to chamfer the side valance with the buffer beam to get a nice crisp corner joint.
The soldering iron ESRA-80 works well but the tip is monstrous and almost impossible to get into the 90° crease to give the join a little strength, so some new tips are in order me thinks, or file the old ones on the Weller to suite specialist jobs like that.
Nothing much to see yet, but a start has been made, I am now officially part of the 'doing' club LOL
S
SteveO
Guest
Good start Mick!
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Hi Mick,
I have read the instructions... Peter has followed the instructions... and now is undoing a little of the work. There have been rumours over here and more substantial pointers over there (a thread by "Boris") and then LNERJP sent a PM. All warning of the same thing - the difficult nature of fitting the outside frames if left until the time as indicated by the instructions.
We looked and worried, we tried and gave up. When trying to insert the outer frame (without any detailing) either the top edge fouled at the front or the end would not pass by the rear buffer plank. So Peter has undone a few joints at the front to allow the large turnunder of the footplate etch to flex.
I suggest that you see how the outer is meant to fit and to do that before detailing the front steps etc., you can then add to the folklore of building a MMP 08.
regards, Graham
I have read the instructions... Peter has followed the instructions... and now is undoing a little of the work. There have been rumours over here and more substantial pointers over there (a thread by "Boris") and then LNERJP sent a PM. All warning of the same thing - the difficult nature of fitting the outside frames if left until the time as indicated by the instructions.
We looked and worried, we tried and gave up. When trying to insert the outer frame (without any detailing) either the top edge fouled at the front or the end would not pass by the rear buffer plank. So Peter has undone a few joints at the front to allow the large turnunder of the footplate etch to flex.
I suggest that you see how the outer is meant to fit and to do that before detailing the front steps etc., you can then add to the folklore of building a MMP 08.
regards, Graham
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Graham, your timely advice is understood and duly appreciated, the outer frames were next on the list to be honest, I want to change a few bits and make the cab floor removable, thus the intention is to attach the outer frames to the inner chassis, thus the rear platform bent up now will have to be attached to the outer frames and then cut from the rear buffer beam, the front too, although I've alreadey soldered the tags that fix it to the footplate so they will have to be unsoldered once the outer frames are in place. I will remove the section that has the cut outs for the pipes and such like. I don't think it's on the real loco.....am going to check and photo this area today....and will do the same to the front end, hence all the soldering and bending thus far to get those plate in the correct location before removal of that supporting metal work. The outer frames have three flanges that look to fold outward, I shall bend them the other way and with luck and fettling they should attach to the inner frames, some supporting material should give sufficient strength in that area, I'll see how it all fits this evening.
It is very clever how that area has folded up and I can see why David has done so, it's a very neat way of getting those pieces down there and in the right place and truth be told you'll probably never look under there, but I know and that's good enough for me to divert from the instructions, at my choice and peril LOL.
It is very clever how that area has folded up and I can see why David has done so, it's a very neat way of getting those pieces down there and in the right place and truth be told you'll probably never look under there, but I know and that's good enough for me to divert from the instructions, at my choice and peril LOL.
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Welcome to the club
Now you need to get this out of the way so you can start the Jub or Princess
Richard
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Hi Mick,
I boiled the kettle, connected the steam bag, lifted the regulator into the roof and my abacus groaned into life. For abacus read electronic image storage device (aka "desktop").
This image shows old and new punches:-
The old punch is at the bottom... the new punches are top and middle - new anvils were made for the new punches with clearance for appropriate metal thickness. We use a Metalsmith embossing tool, so whilst these punches might not look like yours, the idea remains the same.
regards, Graham
I boiled the kettle, connected the steam bag, lifted the regulator into the roof and my abacus groaned into life. For abacus read electronic image storage device (aka "desktop").
This image shows old and new punches:-
The old punch is at the bottom... the new punches are top and middle - new anvils were made for the new punches with clearance for appropriate metal thickness. We use a Metalsmith embossing tool, so whilst these punches might not look like yours, the idea remains the same.
regards, Graham
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Given that the punches are used for (relatively) thin Brass and Nickel-Silver sheet then I doubt that the punches were case-hardened - not sure how the tips would be ground/polished after that process. I believe that the punches were hardened and tempered by heat alone.
regards, Graham
regards, Graham
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Welcome to the club
Now you need to get this out of the way so you can start the Jub or Princess
Richard
Indeed, and I still haven't given up on a Britannia as yet LOL. Actually the choice was a Severn Brit, Connoiseur 4F or Jinty or MMP 08s.
Being as I have not fully set in stone an era to model I opted for the 08s as they fit both eras I'm interested in, one would hope that by the time the first gets to the paint shop, I'll have pulled my digits out and decided on an era....some how I think not LOL. So I may end up with one green and one blue, the green one would only then need TOPs or pre TOPS numbers to define a date, I believe the last green TOPs 08 were 78 or 79.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Graham, thanks, very informative, looking again closely last night both my GW punches look almost the same, the only difference being in the taper, one being a few mm longer than the other, I think that just rounding the tip like your lower one will suffice, my tips are quite sharp, maybe they round off a little after use?
The DA kits have nice half etche test rivets in blank parts of the frets, so if the material is the same thickness I can experiment on those half etchs and see what results I get.
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
With the Cl.08 the major question when commencing construction is to decide on which "one" and "what" brakes for there are options to be considered on the very first page of the instructions. Do not forget Brian Daniels' website for photos of hundreds of the beasts (arranged in TOPS sequence)... and the pages of detail shots to spot the difference.
Happy time-wasting on t'internet!
regards, Graham
mickoo
Western Thunderer
G
Graham, both of mine are dual braked kits, which may limit an early era model with out some extra fiddling, my reasoning was it may be easier to go back from dual to vac than to go forward from vac only to dual. Other than that the only other major things to decide are the type of bonnet door fixings, single or twin pump boxes and manual or electric pump for the fuel header tank. If I were to go later into the TOC era then I'd have to consider the Buckeye fitted EWS ones.
Mr Daniels site is certainly full of info and I use it to supplant my own detail images, that is the beauty of having one in my back yard so to speak, just wander down to the pit and measure or photo something I'm not sure about LOL.
How are you getting on with the axles supplied, they are O f/s and roughly measured seem to be 2mm too narrow, I could add 1mm washers each side (not really the S7 way) but might end up having to fire the lathe up and turn some new ones from 5/16th rod and then file the flats on for the cranks, do you have your wheels yet? Mine are still in the post and I'm assuming they do not have the normal Slaters square socket to fit on the end of a normal axle?
For your reference the right crank leads first, IE r/h TDC then l/h will be facing aft, front being the bonnet end.
One final thing, looking at the resin bonnet top I think the front and rear sections, radiator top and fuel header tank area in front of the cab may be a little narrow, I've not offered it up to the bonnet etches yet but all of our locos are the same width in these areas as their neighbours which at the front is the exhaust section and at the rear the generator section, but I'm still researching that area to see if older locos or other variants have a difference here. Certainly my planned locos are the same width so I may have to build these areas up to the same width and I think height (at work so cannot check said resin part) to match the adjoing areas.
Best Michael
Graham, both of mine are dual braked kits, which may limit an early era model with out some extra fiddling, my reasoning was it may be easier to go back from dual to vac than to go forward from vac only to dual. Other than that the only other major things to decide are the type of bonnet door fixings, single or twin pump boxes and manual or electric pump for the fuel header tank. If I were to go later into the TOC era then I'd have to consider the Buckeye fitted EWS ones.
Mr Daniels site is certainly full of info and I use it to supplant my own detail images, that is the beauty of having one in my back yard so to speak, just wander down to the pit and measure or photo something I'm not sure about LOL.
How are you getting on with the axles supplied, they are O f/s and roughly measured seem to be 2mm too narrow, I could add 1mm washers each side (not really the S7 way) but might end up having to fire the lathe up and turn some new ones from 5/16th rod and then file the flats on for the cranks, do you have your wheels yet? Mine are still in the post and I'm assuming they do not have the normal Slaters square socket to fit on the end of a normal axle?
For your reference the right crank leads first, IE r/h TDC then l/h will be facing aft, front being the bonnet end.
One final thing, looking at the resin bonnet top I think the front and rear sections, radiator top and fuel header tank area in front of the cab may be a little narrow, I've not offered it up to the bonnet etches yet but all of our locos are the same width in these areas as their neighbours which at the front is the exhaust section and at the rear the generator section, but I'm still researching that area to see if older locos or other variants have a difference here. Certainly my planned locos are the same width so I may have to build these areas up to the same width and I think height (at work so cannot check said resin part) to match the adjoing areas.
Best Michael
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
If the 08 is filthy enough you could get away with painting it green one side, blue the other, disguising the roof with enough dirt the join would never show.
Best Beloved and I pretty much got away with a dual-period 08, all bar a couple of picky points only a true anorak might have noticed. With the early black livery, we managed to get away with one side being an LMS 350hp one, and the other a grubby BR one from the 1950s.
