Nick Dunhill
Western Thunderer
I'll put my christmas chocolates stash in it!
Nick Dunhill's workbench - Scratchbuilding a Reid NBR Atlantic from an ACE Kit.
- Thread starter Nick Dunhill
- Start date
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
....you put a hinged lid and a pedal on it and the kit will fit easily in it
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
If it's an "Ace Original" I'd avoid at all costs unless you are prepared to approach it as Nick has. I built the LBSCR "K" - eventually. Details are on here somewhere. The tabs for the frame spacers didn't line up, there was no former for the firebox and the motion was a joke, and that's what I remember. On the tender various accoutrements were in the wrong place. There were other issues. Funnily enough the white metal castings were quite good.
Fortunately I was able to source a set of drawings of loco and tender so was able to fudge the bits that were missing or wrong, friends came to the rescue with bespoke etches for the motion and LG did a roaring trade in brass parts, including for the back head. I had a set of photos of another "K" which had been built from the kit which showed where improvements could be made and overall I reckon I paid out more than the initial cost of kit in reworking of one sort and another.
In short, if you have plenty of building experience you'll probably eventually get it done, but have a large bin at the side of you for "left overs". Unfortunately the original Merchant Navy would not be an easy candidate for scratch building unless you have the skills of Mickoo.
However, if the kit is one that's been bought in from another supplier it may be worth consideration, always assuming that the manufacturer in question was known as a competent supplier. I'd also check on here and the other place whether anyone has successfully built one.
Brian
Edit. I declare an interest here as one of the Finney7 crew.
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Nick Dunhill
Western Thunderer
I had a client who really wanted a Merchant Navy and Mick and myself spoke at length about him producing a set of etches to make one, in the way he has with the etches for the F7 BoB/WC kit. We decided in the end it was really a non runner as all the MNs were so different throughout their lives we couldn't do a 'generic' kit to suit all variants.
Shame really, it would have been a good seller I'm sure. It would be easily possible for me to scratchbuild a MN, but due to the complexity, expensive. Things with long flat sides are surprisingly tricky to get spot on, as I learned from building a pair of EM2s, and having etches (or 3D prints) only really saves on the cutting out and not the difficult fabrication. Never underestimate the skills of those who build diesel and electric locos.
Shame really, it would have been a good seller I'm sure. It would be easily possible for me to scratchbuild a MN, but due to the complexity, expensive. Things with long flat sides are surprisingly tricky to get spot on, as I learned from building a pair of EM2s, and having etches (or 3D prints) only really saves on the cutting out and not the difficult fabrication. Never underestimate the skills of those who build diesel and electric locos.
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mickoo
Western Thunderer
This is a really wriggly tin of worms, Nick and myself...and one or two others here...are commercial builders so we view things rather differently.
Cheap kits are cheap for a reason and all will have a heavy cost in man hours to build, for the commercial builder that equates to a hefty bill, eye watering in some cases. For the hobby builder it's pure man hours and for many that is an aspect they enjoy and quite frankly, probably relish so fair play to them. For myself, I'd rather save those hours and go down the pub with my mates or take the wife out for a meal.
Cheap kits often require replacement parts and there in lies another wriggly tin of worms, what is (commercial prospective) the most efficient way to achieve that, both Nick and I have colluded on supplementary etches, 3D parts and scratch building. Things like boilers, fireboxes, cab roofs, side tanks are perfect for scratch building, there's little to be gained from having large slab objects etched, more so at today's prices.
Regarding the Merchant Navy, essentially we were looking at what amounts to nearly a full kit, that's very expensive in etch production and the roof is a nightmare, I'm just now going through that with my two BLP builds. Whilst I am absolutely confident Nick could have formed the panels we both decided the time taken to do so would have placed the project out of the clients remit.
For this very same reason, there will only ever be two EM2, the effort required and the budget needed to finance all the etches, 3D and after market parts (pantographs, bogies etc) simply makes it unattractive cost wise. On top of that and despite all those aids to building, there is a huge amount of scratch building Nick did behind the scenes to join all the bigger pieces together, that aspect is often forgotten and overlooked by the distraction of the etches and 3D.
I have to say fair play to Nick on this build, etches would have helped in some cases (but not many) so to hand ball all this is quite an achievement. It's not something I would have taken on I have to say; it's several levels on from the 3F and Garratt.
Cheap kits are cheap for a reason and all will have a heavy cost in man hours to build, for the commercial builder that equates to a hefty bill, eye watering in some cases. For the hobby builder it's pure man hours and for many that is an aspect they enjoy and quite frankly, probably relish so fair play to them. For myself, I'd rather save those hours and go down the pub with my mates or take the wife out for a meal.
Cheap kits often require replacement parts and there in lies another wriggly tin of worms, what is (commercial prospective) the most efficient way to achieve that, both Nick and I have colluded on supplementary etches, 3D parts and scratch building. Things like boilers, fireboxes, cab roofs, side tanks are perfect for scratch building, there's little to be gained from having large slab objects etched, more so at today's prices.
Regarding the Merchant Navy, essentially we were looking at what amounts to nearly a full kit, that's very expensive in etch production and the roof is a nightmare, I'm just now going through that with my two BLP builds. Whilst I am absolutely confident Nick could have formed the panels we both decided the time taken to do so would have placed the project out of the clients remit.
For this very same reason, there will only ever be two EM2, the effort required and the budget needed to finance all the etches, 3D and after market parts (pantographs, bogies etc) simply makes it unattractive cost wise. On top of that and despite all those aids to building, there is a huge amount of scratch building Nick did behind the scenes to join all the bigger pieces together, that aspect is often forgotten and overlooked by the distraction of the etches and 3D.
Thanks Brian, but I would not consider my skill set to be at a level where scratch building one of these was practical, some etches and some 3D, then maybe; but cutting metal, nah I leave that to the professionals like Nick, that's his expertise as is mine in CAD and 3D.
I have to say fair play to Nick on this build, etches would have helped in some cases (but not many) so to hand ball all this is quite an achievement. It's not something I would have taken on I have to say; it's several levels on from the 3F and Garratt.
34091 Weymouth
Western Thunderer
It's looking good as always Nick, funnily enough I recently got my nbr study group mag through & it's got a great article of 7mm scratch build atlantic. It's a beautiful thing too in gamboge brown colour.
Si
Si
Nick Dunhill
Western Thunderer
Kind words Mick. From my perspective using your considerable skills in CAD to produce high quality etches and 3D prints is a no brainer. I have no experience in CAD so it makes sense to tap into yours.
If you're building by the hour time is of the essence. Using your parts keeps the cost to clients down considerably, perhaps as much as 50%, and therefore keeps us both in work.
Scratchbuilding is slowly being usurped by 3D printing but to achieve both to a commercial standard require an equally high but different skill set. This is hopefully illustrated well by this build using traditional skills and your fab Garratt build using the newer technology. Same result under the paint.
If you're building by the hour time is of the essence. Using your parts keeps the cost to clients down considerably, perhaps as much as 50%, and therefore keeps us both in work.
Scratchbuilding is slowly being usurped by 3D printing but to achieve both to a commercial standard require an equally high but different skill set. This is hopefully illustrated well by this build using traditional skills and your fab Garratt build using the newer technology. Same result under the paint.
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Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
I have found tender etches to be quite useful to speed the construction of a loco. Quite frankly, etches for a loco will generally only be useful for the cab and maybe the running plate. However, my recent loco, Valour, had an excellent start with Nick Eason’s shot down etches.
The current project, the Raven NER 4-6-2 class, will be entirely scratch built at the front end. Working out how to do this is part of the fun and once you have done that it doesn’t take very long…
Tim
The current project, the Raven NER 4-6-2 class, will be entirely scratch built at the front end. Working out how to do this is part of the fun and once you have done that it doesn’t take very long…
Tim
Nick Dunhill
Western Thunderer
I had a bit of computer drama this week which is mercifully resolved. The work on the boiler continued and I was able nail it all together and add the boiler bands and the boiler fittings. That nice Mr Davies printed me a lovely dome to replace the dome-like white metal lump in the kit.
The painter got in touch and sent me a picture of a Reid Allantic with a star symbol under the smoke box door handles. I descovered that lots of these locos had such a feature and it was a Masonic thing, reflecting the membership of lots of railwaymen at that time. Anyway I accepted his challenge and made one.
Apparently its a Masonic Blazing Star. The kit had two smokebox door castings (one decent one would have done) but I modified the casting to make it a bit more acceptable.
Mick sent me a much higher resolution picture of one of the locos in works grey and I spent a lot of the week adding details to the footplate and some further pipework to the chassis that I hadn't previously noticed. I think this was just a strategy to avoid building the splashers. Finally I ran out of diversionary stuff and had to make them.
The etchings in the kit weren't a total loss. The holes in the footplate for the wheels were in the wrong place and fouled the tyres, this also meant that the foldy up splasher sides etched into the footplate were also in the wrong place. I removed them from the footplate but in any event they were too small. The kit contained some parts to make the splasher inside and top (or maybe alternative splasher outsides and tops, we'll never know.) The curved top section was too narrow and long but the front (or rear) was spot on. Further unconfined pleasure that some more of the cost of the kit had been value for money. I made 4 splashers using some of the kit and that's where work for 2022 ended. I have got a bit lucky as the new splashers disguise the fact that the appertures in the footplate for the wheels are in the wrong place, or maybe they were designed like that.
So the scrap bin did get a little fuller this week. Here's the state of play as of this morning.
Here's the new splashers, the fixing plates with the rivets is a little longer than required to cover the holes in the footplate, but I'll trim as required.
I hope to get them finished in early in January, but I'm pleased that there are mo more structures to be scratchbuilt.
The painter got in touch and sent me a picture of a Reid Allantic with a star symbol under the smoke box door handles. I descovered that lots of these locos had such a feature and it was a Masonic thing, reflecting the membership of lots of railwaymen at that time. Anyway I accepted his challenge and made one.
Apparently its a Masonic Blazing Star. The kit had two smokebox door castings (one decent one would have done) but I modified the casting to make it a bit more acceptable.
Mick sent me a much higher resolution picture of one of the locos in works grey and I spent a lot of the week adding details to the footplate and some further pipework to the chassis that I hadn't previously noticed. I think this was just a strategy to avoid building the splashers. Finally I ran out of diversionary stuff and had to make them.
The etchings in the kit weren't a total loss. The holes in the footplate for the wheels were in the wrong place and fouled the tyres, this also meant that the foldy up splasher sides etched into the footplate were also in the wrong place. I removed them from the footplate but in any event they were too small. The kit contained some parts to make the splasher inside and top (or maybe alternative splasher outsides and tops, we'll never know.) The curved top section was too narrow and long but the front (or rear) was spot on. Further unconfined pleasure that some more of the cost of the kit had been value for money. I made 4 splashers using some of the kit and that's where work for 2022 ended. I have got a bit lucky as the new splashers disguise the fact that the appertures in the footplate for the wheels are in the wrong place, or maybe they were designed like that.
So the scrap bin did get a little fuller this week. Here's the state of play as of this morning.
Here's the new splashers, the fixing plates with the rivets is a little longer than required to cover the holes in the footplate, but I'll trim as required.
I hope to get them finished in early in January, but I'm pleased that there are mo more structures to be scratchbuilt.
Richard Gawler
Western Thunderer
Nick I am sure your scrap bucket is a freelance loco just waiting to get built.
JimG
Western Thunderer
You might breathe easy that you didn't have to model this one.
...a Caledonian Class 498 Dock tank (aka "Beetlecrusher"). Quite an ornate star for a humble shunting pug.
Also, some discussion on the Caledonian Association forum suggested that the plate on the frame stretcher under the bufferbeam was the Prussian eagle with no reason for why it's there.
Jim.
adrian
Flying Squad
Is that additional decoration around the chimney as well?
JimG
Western Thunderer
Adrian,
I hadn't noticed that.
And it wasn't normal decoration.Also note the burnished edge to the smokebox front, the burnished hinge straps, frame edges, buffer faces, coupling, link and diamond plate - definitely not normal for a shunter. But oddly the paintwork and lining on the front end of the tank look decidedly grubby.
Jim.
Nick Dunhill
Western Thunderer
View attachment 60699
This is my next project. Has anyone built one, and on a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is ACE and 10 is F7 or MOK, where does it lie?
This is my next project. Has anyone built one, and on a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is ACE and 10 is F7 or MOK, where does it lie?
Ian@StEnochs
Western Thunderer
I built a couple of Caley 812 0-6-0s from the same stable. Went together ok but the firebox was a pain to form as it has a half lap join half way down the sides. Castings almost all W/M but quite good quality.
The 439 was a long lived class, a few were built by the LMS too, but they all suffered from banana footplates in their latter days. Will you be reproducing the typical sag?
Ian.
The 439 was a long lived class, a few were built by the LMS too, but they all suffered from banana footplates in their latter days. Will you be reproducing the typical sag?
Ian.
Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
It’s a shame one of those imposing Atlantics never made it to Kings Cross.
Tim
Tim
A tricky feature of these locos (439s) is the way that the boiler clothing is draped over the top of the boiler, and shaped to meet the tank tops. I've never seen it modelled properly, but may have missed a good example. Here's what it should look like - the reverse curves in the clothing will be fun to form!
