Rescuing a Martin Finney Princess Coronation
- Thread starter Scanlon
- Start date
InvernessTMD
Western Thunderer
I know it may be obvious, but you have gone over the chassis with a multimeter haven't you?
I got given a friends DJH Warship to work out why it kept shorting each time it was placed on a layout... out with the multimeter and I quickly discovered that the bogies were live
which shouldn't have been possible as it had Slaters insulated wheels...
It was after some head scratching and further staring at it that I found the tiny bits of heat shrink on the DJH pickup system had moved and were now allowing the connecting wire to contact with the bogie chassis...
The wiper pickups were linked using a length of stiff wire that was bent to fit through holes in the frame then be soldered to the wipers, then the builder could solder another wire to that on the inside. Short lengths of heat shrink were put on where it went through the frame. For whatever reason these had moved and allowed the contact.
I rewired the pickups and the problem was solved.
I got given a friends DJH Warship to work out why it kept shorting each time it was placed on a layout... out with the multimeter and I quickly discovered that the bogies were live
which shouldn't have been possible as it had Slaters insulated wheels...It was after some head scratching and further staring at it that I found the tiny bits of heat shrink on the DJH pickup system had moved and were now allowing the connecting wire to contact with the bogie chassis...
The wiper pickups were linked using a length of stiff wire that was bent to fit through holes in the frame then be soldered to the wipers, then the builder could solder another wire to that on the inside. Short lengths of heat shrink were put on where it went through the frame. For whatever reason these had moved and allowed the contact.
I rewired the pickups and the problem was solved.
Scanlon
Western Thunderer
I am very grateful for the support and advice I am receiving from fellow WT members either publicly through this thread or via other means. Probably half the problems now being encountered on the frames stem from my naive belief the original builder had built the frames well, further compounded by my not accepting that the build could be up to 20 years old and in need of greater TLC. Suffice to say I am going back to basics.
The frames have been completely stripped down and the paint applied a few weeks ago removed. Numerous fractures began to appear such as the rear of the mainframes around the ashpan coming away from the frame stretchers, the steam brake assembly held on by a speck of solder, detailing around the cylinders coming away and quite a bit more. In addition the compensation beams fell out!
The side rods have been cleaned up and fitted to the chassis jig ready for setting up the frame correctly but not before they were checked and the driver's side found to have been incorrectly built up. Every axlebox has been tried with a new Slaters axle and the middle and trailing set are fine showing no wear and fitting the horns correctly with the minimum of front to rear movement.
The same could not be said of the leading axle, with bearing surfaces in the axleboxes 20 to 30 thou larger in diameter than they should be and the fore/aft movement excessive. This coupled with the incorrect side rod lengths made for a right mess and will account for some of the shorting that was experienced.
All axles have been measured against the new axle and they are almost all exactly the same.
So now the slow process of correctly aligning and rebuilding the frames will commence. New axleboxes for the leading axle have been ordered from Finney7. Their build instructions are going to be very closely followed from now on.
The frames have been completely stripped down and the paint applied a few weeks ago removed. Numerous fractures began to appear such as the rear of the mainframes around the ashpan coming away from the frame stretchers, the steam brake assembly held on by a speck of solder, detailing around the cylinders coming away and quite a bit more. In addition the compensation beams fell out!
The side rods have been cleaned up and fitted to the chassis jig ready for setting up the frame correctly but not before they were checked and the driver's side found to have been incorrectly built up. Every axlebox has been tried with a new Slaters axle and the middle and trailing set are fine showing no wear and fitting the horns correctly with the minimum of front to rear movement.
The same could not be said of the leading axle, with bearing surfaces in the axleboxes 20 to 30 thou larger in diameter than they should be and the fore/aft movement excessive. This coupled with the incorrect side rod lengths made for a right mess and will account for some of the shorting that was experienced.
All axles have been measured against the new axle and they are almost all exactly the same.
So now the slow process of correctly aligning and rebuilding the frames will commence. New axleboxes for the leading axle have been ordered from Finney7. Their build instructions are going to be very closely followed from now on.
Scanlon
Western Thunderer
Progress on the frames is deliberately proceeding very slowly. Yesterday it was reviewed by Richard and a couple of new axleboxes were purchased. The whole assembly was then given a Finney7 tick in the box when everything was tested on the chassis jig as these two photos show.
Minor alterations were still necessary to the driver's side rods. We also had a good look at the crank axle which is fit for purpose but one of the connecting rods shows evidence of a mauling. Heaven knows what the original builder did to it, thankfully it is OK and will be hidden away in the frames.
Today the spring have been reworked and soldered in place on the middle and trailing horns. Taking advice from Richard the leading springs have been fitted with bolts to allow the crank axle to be removed whenever necessary. This photo shows a plain axle in place which has enabled me to re-hang the brake gear. The bolts will be shortened when final reassembly takes place.
Well that's enough excitement for one day, tomorrow fit the motor and then a test on DCC. Where is the Valium?
Minor alterations were still necessary to the driver's side rods. We also had a good look at the crank axle which is fit for purpose but one of the connecting rods shows evidence of a mauling. Heaven knows what the original builder did to it, thankfully it is OK and will be hidden away in the frames.
Today the spring have been reworked and soldered in place on the middle and trailing horns. Taking advice from Richard the leading springs have been fitted with bolts to allow the crank axle to be removed whenever necessary. This photo shows a plain axle in place which has enabled me to re-hang the brake gear. The bolts will be shortened when final reassembly takes place.
Well that's enough excitement for one day, tomorrow fit the motor and then a test on DCC. Where is the Valium?
Scanlon
Western Thunderer
In all it has taken about 20 hours to reinstate the frames, testing at every stage of the rebuilding as these two photos show.
and with the body in place
The loco has been gradually built up and I had great difficulty getting the drivers leading wheel to run true on the axle. Eventually a few thou was taken off the spacer and a new axle fixing screw replaced the original one. That did the trick. I now have a loco which is 95% complete and running quite well.
There is an intermittent tight spot which so far has eluded me but it will be found. The cylinders and motion bracket assembly are only temporarily fitted, once running trials have proved successful it will be bolted in position properly and the inside piston valve motion reinstalled.
and with the body in place
The loco has been gradually built up and I had great difficulty getting the drivers leading wheel to run true on the axle. Eventually a few thou was taken off the spacer and a new axle fixing screw replaced the original one. That did the trick. I now have a loco which is 95% complete and running quite well.
There is an intermittent tight spot which so far has eluded me but it will be found. The cylinders and motion bracket assembly are only temporarily fitted, once running trials have proved successful it will be bolted in position properly and the inside piston valve motion reinstalled.
Scanlon
Western Thunderer
I have very little to report with this so called rescue. Suffice to say my optimism that the loco was 95% complete and running quite well was grossly overestimated. A trial on Heyside with a full 10 amp NCE system, I only have the basic "starter set", brought me back to earth as the loco failed big style. Currently the frames are with Richard for him to minister some face saving rescue which he assures me will eventually run, but it will be a little while before anything new is posted.
So with 46234 in long term store I have to own up to buying a second Finney Coronation, so this thread seems to be a Tale of Two Princess Coronations, with apologies to a certain Mr. C. Dickens.
Both locos have come via Steamlines Ltd and maybe because of the issues with the earlier purchase Chris Aldred offered me first option on a second loco. As you can see it is another Duchess of Abercorn!
photos courtesy of Steamline Ltd.
The attraction of this loco is the original builder retained all the spare etches numbering each one if removed from the main etch, all castings plus instructions to enable almost every variant of the class to be built. The builder is a retired doctor from north Essex and his build is pretty good including all pipe runs. Unlike the first purchase this loco does not have inside valve gear but it does have Alan Harris wheels! On DC it runs very well but I have yet to fit a chip to see if similar running problems await me.
I have decided this loco will receive a completely rebuilt tender to represent one of the de-streamlined locos. So far the jury is still out as to whether to also rebuild the front end into the utility variant. A number of names attract me but whatever the final outcome this loco will be in the later LMR Maroon livery. If the full front end is retained this means the loco can only be City of Nottingham which is rather appealing as it became a favourite with railtour organisations and as a result was kept in very clean condition towards the end of its working life.
photo copyright of Kerry Parker - Crewe 1962
Time will tell if I have been foolish.
So with 46234 in long term store I have to own up to buying a second Finney Coronation, so this thread seems to be a Tale of Two Princess Coronations, with apologies to a certain Mr. C. Dickens.
Both locos have come via Steamlines Ltd and maybe because of the issues with the earlier purchase Chris Aldred offered me first option on a second loco. As you can see it is another Duchess of Abercorn!
photos courtesy of Steamline Ltd.
The attraction of this loco is the original builder retained all the spare etches numbering each one if removed from the main etch, all castings plus instructions to enable almost every variant of the class to be built. The builder is a retired doctor from north Essex and his build is pretty good including all pipe runs. Unlike the first purchase this loco does not have inside valve gear but it does have Alan Harris wheels! On DC it runs very well but I have yet to fit a chip to see if similar running problems await me.
I have decided this loco will receive a completely rebuilt tender to represent one of the de-streamlined locos. So far the jury is still out as to whether to also rebuild the front end into the utility variant. A number of names attract me but whatever the final outcome this loco will be in the later LMR Maroon livery. If the full front end is retained this means the loco can only be City of Nottingham which is rather appealing as it became a favourite with railtour organisations and as a result was kept in very clean condition towards the end of its working life.
photo copyright of Kerry Parker - Crewe 1962
Time will tell if I have been foolish.
Scanlon
Western Thunderer
Have I been foolish with my second Princess Coronation purchase? Certainly not! A chip was fitted earlier this week and courtesy of Richard the loco given a trial run on Heyside. A minor issue with the bogie showed up but otherwise the loco ran as the proverbial sewing machine. Following very minor modifications to the bogie a further trial on the inner circuit of Heyside, which always shows up any defects was near perfect, so what is next?
Rather than have two locomotives with very similar front ends I have decided this model will become 46240 City of Coventry. The utility front end etches have all be located, set aside and the instructions on Finney7 dutifully studied. Meanwhile the tender has been stripped of all paintwork and dismantled ready to be rebuilt as the de-streamlined version. I must repeat the original build is excellent and the builder used very little solder making cleaning up of mating surfaces very easy.
As for the other loco, it is progressing. Maybe Richard will put a report onto this thread advising what exactly had to be dome to achieve a working frame. Photos to follow.
Rather than have two locomotives with very similar front ends I have decided this model will become 46240 City of Coventry. The utility front end etches have all be located, set aside and the instructions on Finney7 dutifully studied. Meanwhile the tender has been stripped of all paintwork and dismantled ready to be rebuilt as the de-streamlined version. I must repeat the original build is excellent and the builder used very little solder making cleaning up of mating surfaces very easy.
As for the other loco, it is progressing. Maybe Richard will put a report onto this thread advising what exactly had to be dome to achieve a working frame. Photos to follow.
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
OK then. The main problem with the loco was that it was powered using the American system - engine live one side, tender live the other. The problem being that when it was DCC chipped it shorted at every opportunity, even on straight track - think St Elmo's fire. The Heyside brains trust had all made suggestions, dutifully carried out by Roger, but all to no avail. I gave up when I tried it as an 0-6-0 and saw sparks where nothing was touching. Since we'd gone as far as possible without building a new chassis from scratch, which would rather defeat the object, the last resort was to strip out the shorting wires on the Slater's wheels and use conventional pick up. As I had just done tender pick up on mine, I decided to make Roger's tender pick up only. Simple eh? Er, no.
First of all, the tender derailed on points at every opportunity running backwards. I thought to measure the back-to-backs. Way out, like not even close. I took one pair off, and the reason was immediately obvious.
The builder had used the correct, but older style, Slater's wheels which had no brass boss in the centre. He had shorted them out by digging a trench right across and soldering a wire to the tyre and to a bearing. The current was transmitted by trapping the bearing between the wheel and the shoulder on the axle, thereby automatically making each wheelset out of gauge by the thickness of the washer. The mess left behind when I removed the shorting wire and washer left the wheels unusable. OK, 2 new wheelsets from Slater's for the outer wheelsets, and I could make up the centre wheelset from 2 of the original wheels that hadn't been
I still had the problem of getting the centre wheels out, the only solution was to break one side of the stretcher support plates to allow me to remove both wheels by withdrawing the axle from one side.
I also removed the ends of the support plate, which have no real function, to make changing the end wheelsets easier.
There is little chance of fitting pick-ups to the bottom of the chassis, but it is possible to do so from the top, with an alteration to the tank body. Namely the removal of the two large pieces of brass on the footplate that run internally from one side to the other. I would only do this after the body has been built as the footplate will otherwise become less stable.
From here on in it is simple. Copperclad is glued to the top of the stretcher supports and insulated into 2 sides, 0.7mm phosphor-bronze wire is added as pick-ups, and the copperclad wired to a engine/tender plug as shown in the pictures.
I also cut a 'U' shapped section into the top of the frames to eliminate any possibility of a short with the pick-ups.
It's up to Roger as to how far he wants to go with cleaning up/repainting etc, I'm just making it work. You would have a picture of the finished tender, but the camera batteries need a recharge, so that will have to follow, as will details on the engine rework.
Richard
Last edited:
Nigel Cliffe
Western Thunderer
Were it my re-build, I'd arrange the tender pickups so the pickup wires ran on the wheel tread (in the corner near the flange) rather than flange top, wire parallel to the rails, so its the edge of the pickup wires which run on the wheel tread.
- Nigel
- Nigel
Scanlon
Western Thunderer
Thanks Richard for the description of the frames issues on 46234. Needless to say I am delighted the loco is slowly turning into the swan it is supposed to be. Thank goodness the other loco is not displaying any of these problems although it is also powered on the American system. I will be copying Richard's ideas and have normal pick-up arrangements on the tender.
The morning has been spent stripping the original tender of all the items required to complete the de-streamlined version and ended up looking like this
Probably the most difficult job on the new tender was to create the curve on the tender sides. Plenty of patience is necessary and at each stage it was essential to compare the new curve against the coal space etc.. With satisfactory curves created the new rear tender panel was built up using some new and salvaged parts.
The rear platform required considerable alteration, firstly the original holes for the vents and water filler were filled with appropriate sized brass rod and then filed down, they will require a little filling to achieve a smooth finish. With everything cleaned up the "spots" for the new holes became visible and these were drilled out.
After cleaning up the coal space internal supports they have been installed on the new sides and trial runs with the coal space made to ensure there was no misfit of any of the parts. These tenders have four air vents within the coal space and provision for the rearmost pair has been made.
On the frames the rearmost set of steps has been removed on each side and external water sieves fitted.
So now I have a clean set of parts almost ready for reassembly.
Replacement half round beading has been ordered and after fitting the parts can be reassembled.
The morning has been spent stripping the original tender of all the items required to complete the de-streamlined version and ended up looking like this
Probably the most difficult job on the new tender was to create the curve on the tender sides. Plenty of patience is necessary and at each stage it was essential to compare the new curve against the coal space etc.. With satisfactory curves created the new rear tender panel was built up using some new and salvaged parts.
The rear platform required considerable alteration, firstly the original holes for the vents and water filler were filled with appropriate sized brass rod and then filed down, they will require a little filling to achieve a smooth finish. With everything cleaned up the "spots" for the new holes became visible and these were drilled out.
After cleaning up the coal space internal supports they have been installed on the new sides and trial runs with the coal space made to ensure there was no misfit of any of the parts. These tenders have four air vents within the coal space and provision for the rearmost pair has been made.
On the frames the rearmost set of steps has been removed on each side and external water sieves fitted.
So now I have a clean set of parts almost ready for reassembly.
Replacement half round beading has been ordered and after fitting the parts can be reassembled.
P A D
Western Thunderer
Hi Richard,
With your involvement in this rebuild by Scanlon, and your post on my RMW thread, you must be "living and breathing" Duchesses at the moment.
As I mentioned when we chatted at Doncaster, this thread really highlights that the end result that is achieved is ultimately down to the builder, irrespective of the quality of the kit. It is clear that in this case the original builder has made a pig's ear out of a silk purse! Clearly the results that you achieved with your Finney Duchess are as much due to your skills (if not totally due) as well as the exceptional quality of the kit.
On the tender pick ups, would it not be better to set them on the wheel treads rather than the flanges? I'm just wondering if the steel flange acting on the PB wire at 90 degrees, will act as a saw and cut through it. Sure, it will also wear on the treads but to my mind would give better longevity.
Cheers,
Peter
P A D
Western Thunderer
Hi Simon,
That is not my experience of wipers on treads, but then it depends on how clean you keep the wheels and the track. I would hazard a guess that the track on Heyside will not be covered in crud, but you make a fair point. I just question the longevity of a PB wire wiper acting at 90 degrees on the flange.
Cheers,
Peter
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Hi Peter,
Track still gets dirty, however well built and cleaned, and it seems to me that cleanliness is even more important with DCC. Like Simon, my experiences with tread based wipers has not been favourable. They pick up and trap crud pretty easily and with this set up, impossible to clean without separating body from chassis, which is not what one wants to do for a simple clean.
I polish the flanges, and apply graphite to them so the pick up passes smoothly over the flange. I have a number of tenders with this type of pick up, and none are showing any sign of wear, despite some considerable mileage. Mind you, they are only lightly sprung, and do not bear down hard on the flange. Besides which, if they do wear....eventually.....they are dead easy to replace.
Cheers
Richard
Track still gets dirty, however well built and cleaned, and it seems to me that cleanliness is even more important with DCC. Like Simon, my experiences with tread based wipers has not been favourable. They pick up and trap crud pretty easily and with this set up, impossible to clean without separating body from chassis, which is not what one wants to do for a simple clean.
I polish the flanges, and apply graphite to them so the pick up passes smoothly over the flange. I have a number of tenders with this type of pick up, and none are showing any sign of wear, despite some considerable mileage. Mind you, they are only lightly sprung, and do not bear down hard on the flange. Besides which, if they do wear....eventually.....they are dead easy to replace.
Cheers
Richard
Scanlon
Western Thunderer
City of Coventry has a new tender
&
Thanks to excellent service from Metalsmith (Leeds) Ltd, aka Lanky Tank, beading ordered on the weekend arrived in the post this morning. The tender sides could therefore be finished and the basic units of the tender soldered up. As can be seen from the photos there is still some final detailing to be fitted and this will hopefully be completed by the weekend.
&
Thanks to excellent service from Metalsmith (Leeds) Ltd, aka Lanky Tank, beading ordered on the weekend arrived in the post this morning. The tender sides could therefore be finished and the basic units of the tender soldered up. As can be seen from the photos there is still some final detailing to be fitted and this will hopefully be completed by the weekend.
Scanlon
Western Thunderer
It was bath day for the body that is to become 46240. All parts were soaked in cellulose thinners and the paint came off very easily, I think the previous owner had used enamels. With the paint stripped the parts were given a deep clean using a well known limescale cleaner and then a further wash with washing up liquid. This removed the grease created by the thinners. While stripping the boiler the smokebox unit came away from the boiler and I discovered the two units were held in place by a paper washer, the handrails and fixing screws through the running plate. The washer did not survive the cleaning process.
Very minor work was required to reattach parts which had come off in the cleaning process. Some work was necessary on the cab roof to open up the roof ventilator. I never understand why many modellers build these ventilators in the closed position because 99% of the time on the real machines crews have them open. However major surgery was required on the running plate to create the utility front end.
Using a cutting disc the curved front end was cut through on each side. Then using the "gas axe" the remaining curved front end was taken off. Using the new etches for the utility front end this was riveted and formed up, then offered up to the existing mainframe extensions and cover for the inside cylinders. Minor work was required to make a clean fit before soldering up.
The whole assembly was offered up to the mainframes and this revealed a large gap on the main frames as shown in this photo, excuse the excess solder.
When creating the curved front end the builder is required to cut the frames at this point. The utility front end does not require this alteration and in fact the entire bufferbeam/front end plating arrangement is different. The jury is still out as to how to overcome this unsightly gap, I have tried to fill it with solder and file back but this does not seem to work. I may have to live with the problem, will it be so noticeable when painted?
Over the weekend I hope to reassemble the engine body, this photo shows all the parts.
The tender requires only the rear ladder to be installed plus the water fillers installing.
Very minor work was required to reattach parts which had come off in the cleaning process. Some work was necessary on the cab roof to open up the roof ventilator. I never understand why many modellers build these ventilators in the closed position because 99% of the time on the real machines crews have them open. However major surgery was required on the running plate to create the utility front end.
Using a cutting disc the curved front end was cut through on each side. Then using the "gas axe" the remaining curved front end was taken off. Using the new etches for the utility front end this was riveted and formed up, then offered up to the existing mainframe extensions and cover for the inside cylinders. Minor work was required to make a clean fit before soldering up.
The whole assembly was offered up to the mainframes and this revealed a large gap on the main frames as shown in this photo, excuse the excess solder.
When creating the curved front end the builder is required to cut the frames at this point. The utility front end does not require this alteration and in fact the entire bufferbeam/front end plating arrangement is different. The jury is still out as to how to overcome this unsightly gap, I have tried to fill it with solder and file back but this does not seem to work. I may have to live with the problem, will it be so noticeable when painted?
Over the weekend I hope to reassemble the engine body, this photo shows all the parts.
The tender requires only the rear ladder to be installed plus the water fillers installing.
Pannier Tank
Western Thunderer
Interesting choice, I have fond memories of "Cabbing" her ( 11.8.64) when she was on Bletchley Loco (1E) all polished and shining on Standby Duties for the Royal Train.
I look forward to seeing this progress and the finished article.
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Roger,
With regard to the gap under the frame extensions, solder some scrap etch/shim to the edge of the frames - either on the extensions or on the chassis and dress back until the sides are flush with the original. Then carefully file the edge back, regularly trying body and chassis together, until they fit perfectly
Richard
With regard to the gap under the frame extensions, solder some scrap etch/shim to the edge of the frames - either on the extensions or on the chassis and dress back until the sides are flush with the original. Then carefully file the edge back, regularly trying body and chassis together, until they fit perfectly
Richard