Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

30936 Cranleigh Bricklayers Arms 6/35, Ashford 14/6/59, Nine Elms 9/11/61, Wdn 29/12/62, Stored Nine Elms 12/62 - 7/63,
Stored Eastleigh works 8/63 - 9/63, cut up Eastleigh works w/e 2/11/63. Irwell book of.
80144 Neasden 9/56, Brighton 12/59, Redhill 1/64, Stored Salisbury 6/65, Eastleigh 11/65, Nine Elms 2/66, Wdn 15/5/66,
Sold Bird's Bridgend 9/66. RCTS

There is a slight alarm bell in the distant recesses of my mind about the restrictions through Grove Tunnel between the Wells and West which I thought prevented Std 4 tanks passing through, more research I think.
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

There is a slight alarm bell in the distant recesses of my mind about the restrictions through Grove Tunnel between the Wells and West which I thought prevented Std 4 tanks passing through, more research I think.

Ah - not something I was aware of, however the tunnel was built by the LBSCR - probably to their loading gauge. Found this from Subterranea Britannica Grove Tunnel.

 

[AJC]

Yes, all unmistakably Tonbridge - even without the sign, the apparently cut off terraced houses are very distinctive) and thus that's the Up Golden Arrow from Dover (with a Down Hastings in platform 3 - if you had the working timetable for the year in question, you could work out the precise times Tim took the pictures).

Adam

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

(with a Down Hastings in platform 3 - if you had the timetable for the year in question, you could work out the precise time Tim took the picture).

If you had a WTT (working timetable) as this would show the time is was expected to pass Tonbridge being a non-stop train.

Based on the 1959/60 timings on SREmG website it was due to pass Tonbridge at 18hr02:30 (6.021/2pm).

 

[AJC]

If you had a WTT (working timetable) as this would show the time is was expected to pass Tonbridge being a non-stop train.

Based on the 1959/60 timings on SREmG website it was due to pass Tonbridge at 13hr44:30 (1.441/2 pm).

Ah, I'd edited my post while you were quoting from it. I was about to make the SRemG pages my next visit. The WTT would also offer candidates for the other trains shown which would be quite interesting (more so than loco scrapping details in my view! The sense of how these things mesh together is fascinating).

Adam

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I would concur the information about the other trains and background detail is more fascinating.

I've re-read your earlier post and just corrected the time as I, again, thought the bridge was at the London end. The passing time for the London bound Golden Arrow at Tonbridge was 18hr02:30 (6.02 1/2 pm).

 

[AJC]

I've re-read your earlier post and just corrected the time as I, again, thought the bridge was at the London end. The passing time for the London bound Golden Arrow at Tonbridge was 18hr02:30 (6.02 1/2 pm).

Ah, I do have the advantage(?) of living just outside Tonbridge so I am overfamiliar with the place and the layout of the station. Thanks for the timing - that would seem to match the light a bit better. Tim was a little unusual as he split his time between platforms 3 and 4 (the down side) as well as 1 and 2 - the vast majority of spotter and enthusiast shots of Tonbridge from the period were taken from the country end of platform 2. Simply, the light is better for photography on that side as the sun is behind you for most of the day.

Adam

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The WTT would also offer candidates for the other trains shown which would be quite interesting (more so than loco scrapping details in my view! The sense of how these things mesh together is fascinating).

Just dug out a 11th September to 17th June 1961 Southern Region passenger timetable from Timetable World and there was a 18hr12 (6.12pm) ex-Hastings departure from Tonbridge to Charing Cross. If the DEMU on the left was from Hastings then the Golden Arrow was running 6 minutes late.

Based on the Dover departure time in 1959/60 being 17hr13 (5.13pm) then passing Tonbridge at 18hr02 (6.02pm) and in 1961 the Dover departure was 17hr17 (5.17pm) adding 4 mintues to the 1961 Tonbridge passing time gives 18hr06 (6.06pm).

Although this late running may not be uncommon if the sailing from Calais was delayed, however there isn't much scope for fast running towards London to make up lost time once you leave Tonbridge having to cross the North Downs. On the other hand a path would be cleared for the train so it doesn't get held up by local traffic - a bit difficult once you reach Chislehurst with converging lines on the remaining route to Victoria.

 

[AJC]

I don’t know about 1961, Dave, but platform 3, where the DEMU is, is for down trains (though it may well be signalled bi-di now for shunt moves, I’ve never bothered to look!), so I’d expect a train *to* Hastings rather than from. Tim is standing on 2, the main up platform.

Adam

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I’d expect a train *to* Hastings rather than from. Tim is standing on 2, the main up platform.

Goodness me - I don't know my ups and downs . (LT north, south, east and westbounds I'm fine with ).

As you've quite correctly stated this would be a Hastings train and upon re-checking the timetable there was a 18hr03 (6.03pm) ex-CX arrival and 18hr04 (6.04pm) departure from Tonbridge.

Therefore making the Golden Arrow on time and the photo taken between 18hr03 and 18hr04 (6.03 to 6.04pm). I'm afraid I don't know the seconds to nail the precise time.

 

[AJC]

Goodness me - I don't know my ups and downs . (LT north, south, east and westbounds I'm fine with ).

As you've quite correctly stated this would be a Hastings train and upon re-checking the timetable there was a 18hr03 (6.03pm) ex-CX arrival and 18hr04 (6.04pm) departure from Tonbridge.

Therefore making the Golden Arrow on time and the photo taken between 18hr03 and 18hr04 (6.03 to 6.04pm). I'm afraid I don't know the seconds to nail the precise time.

Easily done! And that’s without being say, Exeter St David’s… within a minute after 60 years isn’t bad going though, is it?

Adam

 

[Martin Shaw]

Tonbridge signalling in semaphore days was controlled by two boxes. A box at the London end sat in the V between the London and Redhill lines and controlled the Junction as well as access to the various sidings. The diagram I have is the last layout prior to commissioning of the power box, and the box works train describer and bell to Sevenoaks (PSB), Walkers open block to Penshurst, and 3 position closed block to B box at the country end of the station where it sat to the south of the junction. It was an overhead box over a siding, perhaps a bit bigger than Paddock Wood but visually similar and controlled the junction and access to the engine shed and some sidings. As well as A box, it worked Walkers open block to Paddock Wood and Tunbridge Wells Central Goods. Both boxes were open continuosly and were 651 yards apart.

Up passenger trains could depart from all lines except the down local and through which were signalled for shunt moves only. Down passenger trains could leave from all platforms except obviously the down bay. The up through even has separate down starting signals for each direction which personally seem like overprovision for a move from a standing start. That anything beyond a shunt signal seems odd, perhaps a throwback from earlier (SECR) days.

I expect both boxes were double manned, at least on the day shifts and a busy job I would imagine if they were going to make the timetable work.

Martin

 

[ovener]

Thank you Adrian. You've reminded me about one of our own, although it's a half size repro. It's quite lovely, though, and although I've not inspected it looks as one drives past amazingly accurate.

View attachment 210810

Details are here. Metropolitan No.1 Train - Visit Amersham

Perhaps, with all the bad news, we get a biased view about the youth of today. However, Amersham is hardly an inner city ghetto, or maybe they just have a better class of hooligan.

Brian

The only one I can think of is this one: Have you met Robert the tank engine at Stratford?

I suppose the Tiverton 14xx falls into the same category.

It’s survived there for 20 plus years now - most of the others that did once exist are now in mainstream preservation, one way or another.

Adam

I've just remembered there was a reproduction Bloomer at Central Milton Keynes for many years. I think it was built by apprentices at the then BR Wolverton railway works. Parking was free in those days, and I remember removing the rotor arm from my MG Midget to prevent it being stolen when I got the train down to London. Must have been a miserable experience on the footplate with no protection from the weather or cinders.

 

[oldravendale]

A veritable plethora of new and corrective information. Thank you all.

Yorkshire Dave. Your corrections are highly valued. In particular my apologies for religiously copying Tim's notes without studying the pictures more closely regarding the location. I'll edit each of them with the appropriate comments. Thanks too for the info about the Hastings DEMU set and the haulage of the Golden Arrow when steam finished. I knew the train was electrically hauled but didn't know the class involved. Then Adam for your furher and better particulars about Tonbridge.

Mike - so sorry I didn't see you either. I'm pleased to say that the exhibition was very busy - in fact busier than I've seen for years. Thanks for your confirmation about the location of those photos too.

Martin. Thanks for the loco details and the info found by Yorkshire Dave about Grove Tunnel after your suggestion that the loading gauge might have been a problem. Another matter about which I'm now better informed. Thanks also for the additional info about Tonbridge and the signalling thereof.

Then Dave and Adam again for your work to refine stuff from the WTT and more info about Tonbridge. I'm delighted to provide a forum for discussions about train times fascinating as it is - in fact any additional information sparked by these photos, but if I was to research every nook and cranny of the detail accruing from these pictures my output would be severely compromised! Additionally I have to say that my particular interest is the motive power about which I have some limited info but even researching that usually takes more time than I have readily available. But I'm really gratified to know that the Golden Arrow was on time. (I'm also surprised and impressed in equal measure to see how you worked that out).

Finally for this post after which I'll update the info and record the new stuff before publishing some more photos, thank you, Ovener, for that photo at Central Milton Keynes. I can't say I remember the loco being there although if I was ever at the station it would have been to collect a friend or family member who'd travelled there - it's reasonably convenient for me to reach from home. It's a really good repro - I wonder what's happened to it?

More in my next...

Brian

PS. I've not added everything we have here to the WT descriptions but they are all archived against the descriptions for each photo. I don't want anyone thinking that their research is not being valued or retained.

 

[AJC]

No problem, Brian - for reference, the Bloomer replica is now housed at Milton Keynes Museum (following a spell in store at Wolverton, details here: ‘Bloomer’ Locomotive and artefacts find a new home at Milton Keynes Museum).

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

No problem, Brian - for reference, the Bloomer replica is now housed at Milton Keynes Museum (following a spell in store at Wolverton, details here: ‘Bloomer’ Locomotive and artefacts find a new home at Milton Keynes Museum).

Adam

Thank you Adam - and to Ovener of course for the photograph. It's good to know that someone saw the sense in keeping it.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Well, updating all the information for those photos kept me busy this afternoon so I've not been out to the workshop - again! That will actually need an effort of will as I'm trying to fit the brake gear around the water scoop gear on the Royal Scot tender and it's not working out. I'll go out there again with an ice pack to go on my fevered brow in a day or two... However, having re-read all this "stuff" I'm absolutely delighted with the detail that's come out. WT is truly the repository for a huge amount of knowledge and I'll very much welcome all the details about times and train movements in future (and for any of the photos in the past as well) - all the records are updatable.

Pull-push fitted H Class 31263 on shed at Tonbridge on 3rd June 1961 with a Q1 peeking out of the shed behind (if a Q1 could ever be said to peak!). This is an H that moved around a bit towards the end of its life. At the time of the photo it was allocated to Tonbridge where it had been since April 1960, moved to Ashford in February 1962, Three Bridges in June, Tunbridge Wells West in September (all 1962) and back to Three Bridges in September 1963 where it was withdrawn in January 1964. (SLS). It was the last H Class in service and when withdrawn was stored at Three Bridges until purchased in November 1964. It's now on the Bluebell - see 31263 (SECR 263, SR A263, SR 1263 & BR 31263) for more details.



C Class 0-6-0 31588 on a local to Maidstone West from Tonbridge on 3rd June 1961. This loco has been seen in this recent batch of photos in posts #3131and #3138. 31588 was allocated to Gillingham in at least 1947 and moved from there to Ashford in November 1961 where it was withdrawn on 23rd June 1962. (SLS). The SLS also records it as being allocated to Stewarts Lane two days later but this seems most unlikely. According to WHTS it was observed in Ashford Works on 1st July and BR Database report a scrapping date of July 1962 which all fits quite nicely.



U1 31907. The notes on this are a bit confused to me so I'll list them as Tim did. At least he's not suggesting this is Ashford! They say Tunbridge - Tunbridge Wells Tunbridge Stn West. Please pull the bones out of that one for me and I'll update the description accordingly!

What is indisputable is that it is hauling Pull Push set 652 and the date is 3rd June 1961.

31907 was allocated to Tonbridge in June 1959 and was then allocated to Nine Elms in May 1961 which was, I suspect, another of the early book transfers in advance of the Kent Coast electrification. It was withdrawn from Nine Elms at the end of December 1962. (SLS). According to the SLS it went in to store at Norwood Junction with the instruction that it stay there until further advised and WHTS say it was observed there in March 1963. The Railway Observer then advise it left Norwood Junction for Eastleigh in November 1963 and arrived between 4th November and 5th December. The RO further report that it was cut up week ending 6th December 1963 which agrees with BR Database who advise it was scrapped in December.

Edit: This is Tonbridge.

Tunbridge Wells West (ex-LBSC) and Tunbridge Wells Central (ex-SER) were not electrified at the time. Furthermore Tunbridge Wells Central is situated in a cutting both stations were double rather than four track between the platforms.

The headcode indicates a Reading-Tonbridge train via Redhill.



I warned you- we've come to the end of this sequence of photos Tim took in Germany. Don't be sorry it's over, just be glad he went there and took some wonderful photos. Sad to say he only made the one trip and judging by the response on these pages he's made quite an impression. Thank you for your comments and enthusiasm.

Oil burning 2-10-0 043 476-3 at Rheine on the Germany Rheine - Emden trip in March 1974.



Once again the Germany Rheine - Emden trip in March 1974. I believe this is the same location as seen in img4110, post #3081.

Edit - Now confirmed.



Oil burning 2-10-0 043 475-3 again at Rheine in March 1974.



And very finally 0-10-0T 094 640-0 at Emden March 1974.



Can't say much more.

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Langsam befahren just means drive slowly.... not so long and thanks for all the fish

Oil burning 2-10-0 043 476-3 at Rheine on the Germany Rheine - Emden trip in March 1974.

The Silberling steuerwagen (push-pull control/driving coach) on the right is the original BDnf 738 with the Hasenkasten ('rabbit box') driving cab which is effectively half width as it was split by a corridor connection. Some were rebuilt - and later new ones built - with Karlsruher Kopf and later still rebuilt with Wittenberg Kopf. Both the Karlsruher and Wittenberg Kopf were full width driving cabs which provided better all-round visibility and crash protection.

Once again the Germany Rheine - Emden trip in March 1974. I believe this is the same location as seen in img4110, post #3081.

Yes, Rheine.

U1 31907. The notes on this are a bit confused to me so I'll list them as Tim did. At least he's not suggesting this is Ashford! They say Tunbridge - Tunbridge Wells Tunbridge Stn West. Please pull the bones out of that one for me and I'll update the description accordingly! What is indisputable is that it is hauling Pull Push set 652 and the date is 3rd June 1961.

31907 was allocated to Tonbridge in June 1959 and was then allocated to Nine Elms in May 1961 which was, I suspect, another of the early book transfers in advance of the Kent Coast electrification. It was withdrawn from Nine Elms at the end of December 1962. (SLS). According to the SLS it went in to store at Norwood Junction with the instruction that it stay there until further advised and WHTS say it was observed there in March 1963. The Railway Observer then advise it left Norwood Junction for Eastleigh in November 1963 and arrived between 4th November and 5th December. The RO further report that it was cut up week ending 6th December 1963 which agrees with BR Database who advise it was scrapped in December.

This is Tonbridge.

Tunbridge Wells West (ex-LBSC) and Tunbridge Wells Central (ex-SER) were not electrified at the time. Furthermore Tunbridge Wells Central is situated in a cutting both stations were double rather than four track between the platforms.

The headcode indicates a Reading-Tonbridge train via Redhill.

C Class 0-6-0 31588 on a local to Maidstone West from Tonbridge on 3rd June 1961. This loco has been seen in this recent batch of photos in posts #3131and #3138. 31588 was allocated to Gillingham in at least 1947 and moved from there to Ashford in November 1961 where it was withdrawn on 23rd June 1962. (SLS). The SLS also records it as being allocated to Stewarts Lane two days later but this seems most unlikely. According to WHTS it was observed in Ashford Works on 1st July and BR Database report a scrapping date of July 1962 which all fits quite nicely.

Interesting coach behind the C - appears to be of LMS origin and looks utterly old-fashioned in comparison to the sleek Maunsell open third saloon.

The Q1 headcode is London Bridge or Bricklayers' Arms and Hastings via Chislehurst and Tunbridge Wells Central.

 

[AJC]

This is Tonbridge.

Tunbridge Wells West (ex-LBSC) and Tunbridge Wells Central (ex-SER) were not electrified at the time. Furthermore Tunbridge Wells Central is situated in a cutting both stations were double rather than four track between the platforms.

The headcode indicates a Reading-Tonbridge train via Redhill.




Interesting coach behind the C - appears to be of LMS origin and looks utterly old-fashioned in comparison to the sleek Maunsell open third saloon.

The Q1 headcode is London Bridge or Bricklayers' Arms and Hastings via Chislehurst and Tunbridge Wells Central.

The U1 is on the down through line and could, I suppose, be working that set back as ECS to Tunbridge Wells West: it's certainly in a position where going to TW/TWW was a likely option. The discs suggest otherwise, but in any event it's an unusual duty for a mogul.

The LMS brake behind the C is one for @LarryG - a through coach of some sort. A look at the WTT might help with some of these workings if we assume Tim was recording the late afternoon and early evening, especially the Schools and Std 4 we saw earlier. Nice portrait of the surviving H (with a bonus Presflo lurking in the background).

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

Once again, Dave, many thanks for your info on all those photos. I'll be editing the commentaries accordingly - I'd not even been aware that the coach on the right of the loco in the first German photo was a push-pull vehicle.

Thanks for the expanded info in yours too, Adam. All faithfully retained.

Having completed the German railway photos I'll be adding some others of non-railway subjects from Tim's archive as an occasional addition starting with this post. However, we'll begin with some more from the SR.

U1 31904 on a local train to Brighton at Tonbridge Station on 3rd June 1961. It had been allocated to Tonbridge in June 1959 and there was a book transfer to Exmouth Junction in May 1961 although that clearly didn't happen immediately. It was withdrawn from Exmouth in November 1962. (SLS). It arrived in Eastleigh Works between 4th and 24th November 1962 (RO), was observed on a scrap road there in January 1963 (SLS) and was broken up in week ending 2nd February 1963. (RO).


West Country 34012 Launceston on a Kent Coast arrival at Charing Cross on 10th June 1961. It was allocated to Bricklayers Arms in February 1958 and Brighton in June 1962 before moving to Salisbury in September 1963 and Bournemouth in October 1965 before withdrawal in December 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's Newport in April 1967.


Schools Class 30924 Haileybury on the 9.10am Dover train at Charing Cross on 10th June 1961. I'm pretty confident this must have been the train Tim on which travelled to Tonbridge and is part of the sequence in post #3151. The details recorded there are: This loco had been at Bricklayers Arms since June 1952 and recorded in store in October 1953, reinstated December 1953 and back in to store at the end of the same month, so clearly reinstated for the Christmas traffic. It was reinstated in February 1954 but back in to store in October and reinstated again possibly for the Christmas timetable in early December and back in to store in February 1955, reinstated in June, stored again in October 1955 and then not reinstated until June 1956. (SLS). Seeing all these seasonal reinstatements makes one realise the commitment to capital resources for seasonal traffic which would give the accountants of today apoplexy! Eventually, in August 1961 it was allocated to Redhill where it was withdrawn in early January 1962. (SLS). It went to Ashford Works where it was cut up week ending 20th January 1962. (Railway Observer). Reference back to the earlier posting will give access to the additional comments made about the loco and train.



Now on to non-railway photos. These are by no means rare - although the view points may be - and are of St Pancras Station at the time of Tim's trip to Germany in May 1974. Although the station was grade 1 listed by that time its future was by no means secure so Tim may have had the view that his photos could be of historical importance. The vehicles, street furniture and so on make this a real period scene - after all it's almost 50 years ago although to some of us on this site that seems like just yesterday.





Brian