7mmMick's Wagon Workbench - A BV for Love Lane + 3 for me

[Dog Star]

Hi Mick-the-wagon ( or maybe "Maltby Mick"),

After reading your MRJ article for the third time... and looking at all of the photos on the MMP web-site which relate to the products I rather wish to ask a question or two - only 'cos the lily has been gilded so well you understand.

Post no.#32 of this thread includes an interior of one of the wagons and the view in question shows that the wagon has bottom doors. All of the RCH wagon drawings which I have seen (courtesy Tony Watts) show the door band set flush with the floor so that anyone using a shovel to remove the load would not hit the end of the shovel on the band (hence sustaining a severe jarring effect to the arm etc..) - the photo suggests that the door band is proud of the floor by the thickness of the band. For the same reason the door band fixings are recessed into the band.

After looking at the MMP photos of the etches I think that the side and end knees are of constant cross-section from top to bottom, I expect that such is a consequence of using etching for the production of the sides / washer plates / knees. The prototype knees are generally of a taper section (thinner at the top and thicker at the bottom) - if you were bothered about this aspect of the construction, and the modelling depicted here suggests that you are, then how might you introduce that taper characteristic into the models?

Running the wagons with loads all of the time is not an answer for you know that those WMR pundits will prod, poke and ask.

regards, Graham

 

[Stu Fox]

Wonderful work Mick - Top class. A real work of art

 

[7mmMick]

Hi Mick-the-wagon ( or maybe "Maltby Mick"),

After reading your MRJ article for the third time... and looking at all of the photos on the MMP web-site which relate to the products I rather wish to ask a question or two - only 'cos the lily has been gilded so well you understand.

Post no.#32 of this thread includes an interior of one of the wagons and the view in question shows that the wagon has bottom doors. All of the RCH wagon drawings which I have seen (courtesy Tony Watts) show the door band set flush with the floor so that anyone using a shovel to remove the load would not hit the end of the shovel on the band (hence sustaining a severe jarring effect to the arm etc..) - the photo suggests that the door band is proud of the floor by the thickness of the band. For the same reason the door band fixings are recessed into the band.

After looking at the MMP photos of the etches I think that the side and end knees are of constant cross-section from top to bottom, I expect that such is a consequence of using etching for the production of the sides / washer plates / knees. The prototype knees are generally of a taper section (thinner at the top and thicker at the bottom) - if you were bothered about this aspect of the construction, and the modelling depicted here suggests that you are, then how might you introduce that taper characteristic into the models?

Running the wagons with loads all of the time is not an answer for you know that those WMR pundits will prod, poke and ask.

regards, Graham

To be honest Graham the more precise location would be 'Cadeby Mick' as that was the nearest Colliery to where I was brought up but I like the idea.

Some very valid points and you are correct in all you say, I will explain;
The side and corner knees should be a taper and not flat section, I am also told and have seen some photograhic evidence that no bolt detail sat pround of these and was countersunk into the knee. So in this case the MMP parts are not 100% perfect, but how far to you go ? I fitted the parts and not having as great a knowlege as I would like of the prototype it was too late when I found they were incorrect to change them. My logic being, on a layout would people notice these three in thirty of forty ?( he says cringing and wanting to go and sort it as I really am a devil for getting it right ) I aim to tackle this next time around as pictures that follow will show, to use plastikard to represent the knees and I will fix them onto the etch (having not embossed the bolt detail).

With regards the floor I just simply kept the one supplied as I found it difficult, no impossible to find any detailed pictures of the floor and bottom door arrangments. If you or any one could help with photographs/drawings it would be a great help. The next wagons to get the MMP treatment are pictured below, they are very early Slaters which I got for free and I think are fundamentily a sound basis, the floors I made up from plain plastickard so any details on the doors as above will certainly be timely.




Below is a piece of plastikard kindly donatned by Dave Rayner (Sclub7 of this parish). This is correctly profiled and will by used to overlay the MMP side and corner knees. Don't hold him to this but Dave plans to 3d print some knees for this purpose to add the final details to these wagons which would be fantastic.

Next is a wagon that now holds sentimental value, Cynric sold me this one for a snip at a tenner and this will soon have the treatment and I hope he would think it suitable............


Finally is a picture that I wanted to include in my MRJ article and had permission signed and sealed from Mr David Larkin but unfortunately for reasons I won't go into it didn't make it. This is photographed from a magazine so apologies for it's poor quality and that of the other photo's as they were taken in the hours of darkness. I would like to have had it side by side with a black and white of my P272940 and I would hope my wagon would do it justice, sadly I don't have the computer skills to make it happen

ATB Mick

 

[7mmMick]

Wonderful work Mick - Top class. A real work of art

Cheers for the kind comments Stu

ATB Mick

 

[Dog Star]

To be honest Graham the more precise location would be 'Cadeby Mick' as that was the nearest Colliery to where I was brought up but I like the idea.

Forget the geography for the moment... Cadeby Mick does not have the friendliness of Maltby Mick, well maybe not until you have done a Cadeby wagon!

 

[Dog Star]

The side and corner knees should be a taper and not flat section, I am also told and have seen some photograhic evidence that no bolt detail sat pround of these and was countersunk into the knee.

I am not sure about this point, I had the idea that the "bolts" were cuphead and hence did not stand too proud of the knee. Possibly the best source of photos showing the interior of wooden mineral wagons are the three volumes of "Severn & Wye Rly" by Pope and Karau (Wild Swan) and "4mm Coal Wagon" by John Hayes (Dead Duck again).

If you or any one could help with photographs/drawings it would be a great help.

I suggest that you start with "The Ince Waggon Company" by Tony Watts (HMRS) which has dozens of pages of (RCH) drawings of the parts of private owner wagons and there are details of the bottom doors amongst the drawings.

elow is a piece of plastikard kindly donatned by Dave Rayner (Sclub7 of this parish). This is correctly profiled and will by used to overlay MMP side and corner knees.

Good idea. As an alternative, see "4mm Coal Wagon" (ibid) which has details of a jig to produce the appropriate taper for specific height of side sheeting.

Finally is a picture that I wanted to include in my MRJ article ... I would like to have had it side by side with a black and white of my P272940 and I would hope my wagon would do it justice...

Great picture and your model does do what you hope.

regards, Graham

 

[Dog Star]

Hi Mick,

Seeing as you have raised the subject on the MMP LMS Glass wagon thread then asking a similar question here is fair game !
You have created "pockets" within the underframe into which you place the W-irons - good idea and one which I might well plagarise regularly. How do you stop the wheels from falling out of the underframe when those inquisitive souls at West Mersea pick up a wagon for a closer inspection?

regards, Graham

 

[7mmMick]

Hi Mick,

Seeing as you have raised the subject on the MMP LMS Glass wagon thread then asking a similar question here is fair game !
You have created "pockets" within the underframe into which you place the W-irons - good idea and one which I might well plagarise regularly. How do you stop the wheels from falling out of the underframe when those inquisitive souls at West Mersea pick up a wagon for a closer inspection?

regards, Graham

The main reason for the removeable W-irons really is to ease painting and not get working parts gummed up. Once the base coats are acheived and prior to the main weathering stage begining I add a tiny spot of cyno to the spring retaining brackets so when fitted this adheres to the bottom of the solebar and is enough to hold the assembley in place for those WM lads who are keen to inspect ( which they all are ). If for some unseen reason they need removing again the glue can be broken at this point and the assembley removed again. To be honest it is rare that a wagon needs this attention so I can't for see this happening a lot.

Forget the geography for the moment... Cadeby Mick does not have the friendliness of Maltby Mick, well maybe not until you have done a Cadeby wagon!

Your Honour, may I bring to the Jury's attention exhibit A below. The picture clearly shows an ex PO 'Denaby' wagon which in fact at the time of building served both Denaby Main and Cadeby Main Collieries ( Both Collieries owned by the same ). A technicality which proves my case Although to be honest and not disclosing this i'm not sure if any wagons were ever sign written 'Cadeby' and Cadeby Mick doesn't have the same ring I agree



I have the John Hayes book which is treated as a Bible, cramed full of information and tips for jigs etc. I intend to strongly follow his 4mm lead in 7mm to produce a fleet of these wagons. However I don't have any of the other titles you mention, I have a list of at least ten books I want to buy and your recommendations will be added, the advice is much appreciated, thankyou. Unfortunately I always end up buying kits and tools instead of books, my will is weak. One book which I am really looking forward to is in the process of being written by David Larkin and focuses on Yorkshire Colliery traffic like this, I will keep my eyes open for this.

ATB Mick

 

[alcazar]

Ah, Denaby......place of my childhood. We went through it twice monthly with my parents, off to visit my dad's boyhood friend in Wath on Dearne.

The smell of coke-ovens started at Denaby and didn't end until you were into Wath High Street.

But my dad's mate lived on Moor Road, just up from the yards and depot. One of my first cops was E26000 "Tommy".

 

[S-Club-7]

Don't hold him to this but Dave plans to 3d print some knees for this purpose to add the final details to these wagons which would be fantastic.

I was rather hoping that you'd forgotten about that, because I had. Have just moved it back up the "to do" list.

 

[7mmMick]

I was rather hoping that you'd forgotten about that, because I had. Have just moved it back up the "to do" list.

Thanks Dave, it would be a great addition if these were avaliable to purchase. Can you offer any clarity on whether any bolt detail would be visible on the knees? I am sure I have seen pictures of 'with and without',

ATB Mick

 

[S-Club-7]

Can you offer any clarity on whether any bolt detail would be visible on the knees? I am sure I have seen pictures of 'with and without'

The number and position of bolt-heads will vary depending on the number and width of the planks. My plan was to not show any bolt-heads whatsoever so the end-user could add them as and where required.

 

[john lewsey]

Hi I've just received my pack of MMP bits for some wagons and there is an alarming amount of bits and pieces

 

[Dog Star]

Hi I've just received my pack of MMP bits for some wagons and there is an alarming amount of bits and pieces

Do not worry John, if you drop enough bits on the floor then there will be a Slater's kit left over - donations received.

 

[john lewsey]

Do not worry John, if you drop enough bits on the floor then there will be a Slater's kit left over - donations received.

Ill build one for you if you want me to Graham any particular wagon

 

[7mmMick]

A very quick update to show I've done a bit by adding another couple MMP interiors to bodies. The Bodies are very early Slaters but I think with some more work they'll pass muster? The floors are hand scribed from 10 thou plastikard which were then glued in place on top of the 30 thou floor already fitted and thankfully these wagons are side door only so no bottom doors to mess about with. The body pictured has had some serious damage applied to the top planks on the sides along with the capping strip, this should be easier to see when finished. With just the side door knees and retaining clips to add to the capping it's nearly time to




ATB Mick

 

[Rob Pulham]

That's great Mick and saves me asking the quesion of what order you do them in for when I start mine (I have the Slaters kit, the MMP spring and underframe detail sets I just need to order an interior kit).

 

[Wagonman]

Reverting to an earlier part of this conversation, I'm delighted to see that the MMP underframe detail etches include the bottom door operating levers (parts 27-29). I shouldn't have expected anything less from Mr Parkin

(Mick has used them where appropriate – very subtle and not easy to spot!)

Richard

 

[Rob Pulham]

I just need to order an interior kit).

.

I took the plunge and ordered it and one of the new LMS opens last night

 

[7mmMick]

.

I took the plunge and ordered it and one of the new LMS opens last night

Very Jealous mate, I would really like some of those new kits but I don't have the brass at the minute ( no pun intended ). I'm sure you'll enjoy them, I'll look forward to seeing your progress on your workbench,

ATB Mick