Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[robertm]

Definitely an F6, the side tanks were higher and virtually lined up with the base of the side window. On 218/9 the tank tops were below the window base.

 

[oldravendale]

Martin @Martin Shaw , Bob @robertm and Arun - thanks for the discussion about the putative F6. I'm going to edit the description to describe the loco as an F6 and thank you for the info which has lead to the identification. The discussion will be attached to photo documentation. Thanks also, Bob, for confirming that the coach is "acceptable" - not only that but can be identified! I'll add that to the documentation as well.

More photos here from Ireland, and all details are taken from Irish Steam Loco Register by JWP Rowledge published by Irish Traction Group.

Two GNR(I) Class A 0-6-0s at Adelaide MPD on 20th April 1957. The one nearest the camera is 150, Longford, built by Beyer Peacock in 1890. It transferred to the CIE in 1958 becoming their 150N and was withdrawn in 1961.



I’m at sea with this one. I read the number as 364 and it’s clearly an 0-6-0. However GNR(I) loco numbers never went beyond 210 and although 364 is within the Great Southern Railways numbering sequence that number is taken by a 2-6-0 which had already been withdrawn. I’ll be grateful to anyone with a knowledge of Irish railways who can provide proper details. Tim advises this as being at Amiens Street Station (Dublin) on 20th April 1957.

A most unlikely confirmation of the loco comes from here: CIE - 0-6-0 - NO. 364- IRISH RAIL PHOTO #2275 | eBay It doesn't tell us any more about the loco but at least there's confirmation of its existence!



GNR(I) Class T 4-4-2T 188 at Amiens Street Station, Dublin on Easter Saturday, 20th April 1957. Built by Beyer Peacock in 1913 rebuilt to T1 in 1927 and transferred to CIE in 1958 who withdrew it in 1959 without renumbering it.



Two photos here of GNR(I) QGT class 0-6-2T 99 of 1905 at Amiens Street Station (Dublin) on 20th April 1957. No 99 was built by Robert Stephenson and rebuilt in 1935 to QGTs and transferred to CIE where it became 99N and was withdrawn in 1960.





GNR(I) Class Qs 4-4-0 132 Mercury built by Neilson Reid in 1901 and here at Amiens Street Station, Dublin on 20th April 1957. It was rebuilt from Q to Qs in 1922 and moved to CIE as 132n in 1958 where it was withdrawn in 1963.



Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

The mystery 0-6-0 has the appearance of a UG class, although I am not entirely satisified by the cab roof outline. May I suggest that the number is actually 36 and what is being read as '4' is actually the light off the angle of the front coupling hook. The class were numbered 78-82, built 1937 and 145-149 built post war to a slightly modified design. The locos were renumbered by the UTA although I cannot (yet) discover the re-numbering sequences. I understand that some UG's were renumbered into the mid-40's but so far, I have no further information. Prhaps someone else is having better luck. After all, it may not be a UG - -it's that cab that bothers me........

Roger

 

[40057]

The mystery 0-6-0 has the appearance of a UG class, although I am not entirely satisified by the cab roof outline. May I suggest that the number is actually 36 and what is being read as '4' is actually the light off the angle of the front coupling hook. The class were numbered 78-82, built 1937 and 145-149 built post war to a slightly modified design. The locos were renumbered by the UTA although I cannot (yet) discover the re-numbering sequences. I understand that some UG's were renumbered into the mid-40's but so far, I have no further information. Prhaps someone else is having better luck. After all, it may not be a UG - -it's that cab that bothers me........

Roger

I’m sure you’re right. Number 36 plus a coupling hook.

 

[LarryG]

Stanier 2-6-4T No. 42540 was one of eight of the early 2-cylinder variants with domeless boilers.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Roger
I'm sorry it's not a GNR(I) UG class, you were right to be cautious For the record there were two batches as you note. The half of the class that went to the UTA were nos 78/9/82/146/9 which were renumbered in that order 45-49. They had round spectacle windows, round top fireboxes and solid splashers, all matters that differ on the mystery engine.

Brian
It took some tracking down but it is a GS&WR 351 class, later a GSR J9. Originally built as a batch of four numbered 351-354 in 1903 to a Coey design at Inchicore, with a further four in 1912 numbered 249 -252. All eight were rebuilt in the 1930s with Belpaire firebox and superheated which gave it the appearance in the photograph.

The number is misleading, 364 was a GS&WR 362 class 4-6-0 built in 1905 but only lasted until 1928. The class were the first 4-6-0s in Ireland. I can find no other reference to a locomotive number 364 in Ireland ever. I think both Tim's photo and the ebay one show either a badly applied transfer or poor hand painting which should be read as 354 which is an appropriate number for that class of loco, it was withdrawn in 1962.
Martin

 

[Overseer]

It took some tracking down but it is a GS&WR 351 class, later a GSR J9. Originally built as a batch of four numbered 351-354 in 1903 to a Coey design at Inchicore, with a further four in 1912 numbered 249 -252. All eight were rebuilt in the 1930s with Belpaire firebox and superheated which gave it the appearance in the photograph.

The number is misleading, 364 was a GS&WR 362 class 4-6-0 built in 1905 but only lasted until 1928. The class were the first 4-6-0s in Ireland. I can find no other reference to a locomotive number 364 in Ireland ever. I think both Tim's photo and the ebay one show either a badly applied transfer or poor hand painting which should be read as 354 which is an appropriate number for that class of loco, it was withdrawn in 1962.

You beat me to it. Definitely CIE class J9, ex GS&WR 351 class, number 354. The issue with misinterpreting the Irish script numbers has been discussed previously on this thread. The attached copy of part of a published photo of CIE C2 456 shows the normal form of the numerals on the buffer beam and confirms that the J9 is 35- and the 4 is visible on the cab side. Only one other J9 is possible, 351 as 352 had a different boiler and 353 was withdrawn in 1931.

 

[Roger Pound]

Thanks Martin - as I said, the cab bothered me so at least a modicum of satisfaction there. I did not mention the shape of the cab windows as I could not clearly make them out although I thought they were oblong as opposed to circular, which again is it not as on a UG. I still think the front coupling hook hides/distorts the last digit though........! I must confess that GS&WR stock is not my strong point

Thanks too to @Overseer for the further information and photograph. All of great interest to this closet Irish Railways fan.

Roger.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Larry @LarryG . Another refinement of a 2-6-4T to add to the detail.

Then, chaps - what a wonderful result of all that research in to the 0-6-0. I'm pleased to have a photograph of Tim's which originated on the GS & WR. That was one hell of a railway in its day. I'd not considered a misread of the number but having seen the photo from @Overseer that is so easily misreadable. So, to all involved - Roger @Roger Pound , @40057 , Martin @Martin Shaw and @Overseer - thank you.

GNR(I) Class S 4-4-0 172 Slieve Donard at Great Victoria Street Station Belfast on 20th April 1957. It was built by Beyer Peacock in 1913 and rebuilt in 1938. In 1958 it went to the UTA where it was renumbered 60 and withdrawn in 1965.



Two photos of GNR(I) No 187 which was a T1 4-4-2T built as a T by Beyer Peacock in 1913, here at Adelaide MPD, Belfast, in August 1957. It was rebuilt in 1926 and moved to the UTA in 1958 as 187x, being withdrawn in 1964.





GNR(I) No 122 Vulcan, a Qs 4-4-0 built in 1903 by North British as a Q and rebuilt in 1924 as a Qs. It went to the UTA becoming their 122x and being withdrawn in 1960. No 1 was a T2 4-4-2T built by Beyer Peacock in 1921 which went to the CIE and was not renumbered but withdrawn in 1959. The location is Great Victoria Street Station Belfast and the date is probably August 1957.



No 184 was a GNR(I) SG2 Class 0-6-0 of 1915 and built by Beyer Peacock. In this photo it’s at Adelaide MPD Belfast in August 1957. It was renumbered 184N when it moved to the CIE and was withdrawn in 1963.



Two photos of GNR(I) A Class 0-6-0 No 60 Dundalk built by the GNR at Dundalk in 1890. Here it’s at Adelaide MPD (Belfast) in August 1957 It went to the CIE in 1958 as their Class AL and was not renumbered but withdrawn in 1959.





Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Three more Irish photos here to complete the set, and then a couple back across the water.

The same loco on two different dates and in two locations. This is GNR(I) No 23, an RT Class 0-6-4T built by Beyer Peacock in 1908 and going to the UTA in 1958 where it was not renumbered and withdrawn in 1963. The first photo is in the Belfast Docks Area (which was their home territory) in November 1956 and the second at Adelaide MPD Belfast in August 1957.





GNR(I) VS class 4-4-0 No 207 Boyne built in 1948 by Beyer Peacock and which went to the CIE as their 207N. The loco was then sold to the UTA in 1963 on the cessation of steam on the CIE. The UTA withdrew the loco in 1965. Here it’s at Adelaide MPD Belfast in July 1957. It's one of the photos Tim asked me to print for him.



Standard Class 4 2-6-4T 80131 at Fenchurch Street in November 1957. The loco was new to Plaistow in March 1956, then Tilbury in November 1959, Old Oak Common in August and Shrewsbury in September 1962, Oswestry February 1963 and Bangor in February 1965 where it was withdrawn in the following May. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen’s, Morriston in July 1965. (BR Database).



At Eastleigh and I believe in the shed yard on 30th November 1957 was B4 0-4-0T 30083. Eastleigh was the allocation from November 1953 and it was withdrawn from there in November 1959. (SLS). Not surprisingly the site of scrapping was Eastleigh Works during the same month. (RO).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Tyne Dock Shed turntable and 9F 92061 complete with Westinghouse pumps on 1st September 1957. The pumps were used to drive the pneumatic doors on the iron ore wagons which worked to Consett for the iron works. Allocation of the loco was Tyne Dock from April 1956 – in fact from new in November 1955 but it went on loan to Wellingborough – and it was withdrawn from Tyne Dock in September 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped in November 1966 at Draper’s, Hull. (BR Database).



Another of the Westinghouse pump fitted 9F 2-10-0s, 92098 on a Tyne Dock to Consett Ore Train passing Tyne Dock MPD on 1st September 1956. As the above photo is dated exactly a year earlier we may guess that both photos were actually taken on the same date, but whether 1956 or 1957 I have no way of knowing. This loco was allocated to Tyne Dock when new in July 1956 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in July 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Draper’s, Hull, in October the same year. (BR Database). This was another picture I printed for Tim as he knew it'd be a bit of a challenge - the negative was absolutely filthy. Regrettably it's just a bit unsharp so was really quite unsatisfactory as an A4 print. I remember Tim being so disappointed - he'd been wanting a print for years as the neg had never been printed and he considered it one of his best.



Standard Class 4 2-6-0 76072 at Stranraer MPD in July 1957. We saw this loco previously in post #444. The SLS advises it was always a Dumfries engine from new in October 1956. 76072 was withdrawn in October 1964 (SLS) and scrapped in May 1965 at Shipbreaking Industries (Faslane) after the scandalously short life of 8 years and 12 days. (BR Database).



55240 at Stranraer Carriage Sidings in July 1957. Another negative separated from its fellows which were in post #468. 55240 appears to be someone's pet, the equal I'd say of the Liverpool Street pilots. I understand this to be a Caledonian/Pickersgill 431 or 2P 0-4-4T. It's certainly recorded as a Stranraer loco at this time and had been since February 1957 before moving to Ayr in April 1960, stored in July 1961 but at Helford Hurlford and withdrawal in November 1961 where it was stored until at least August 1963. (RO, LCGB and SLS). Scrapping occurred in October 1963 (BR Database) at Connell's, Coatbridge (RO).



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
Re #3993, a typo in the caption. 55240 was stored at Hurlford shed which is near Kilmarnock, Helford is in Cornwall I believe.

The loco and various items of rolling stock are on the carriage sidings built during WWII to alleviate storage for various government related activities. Access to them was controlled by a GF itself controlled by Stranraer Town signal box. The box in the background is Stranraer Harbour Junction signal box built in 1921 so almost one of the last built by the Caledonian Railway.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Standard Class 4 2-6-0 76072 at Stranraer MPD in July 1957. We saw this loco previously in post #444. The SLS advises it was always a Dumfries engine from new in October 1956. 76072 was withdrawn in October 1964 (SLS) and scrapped in May 1965 at Shipbreaking Industries (Faslane) after the scandalously short life of 8 years and 12 days. (BR Database).

View attachment 237082




Brian

The loco behind 76072 is a Crab and according to BRDatabase, if this shot is July '57, can only be 42749, she arrived at Stranraer from Carlisle Kingmoor on 26/01/52 and left on 21/12/57 back to Carlisle Kingmoor, it was scrapped November '62.

Col.

 

[oldravendale]

The location has been edited to read Hurlford, Martin @Martin Shaw , and thank you for correcting that. Thanks too for the further and detailed info about the precise location of the photo. All added to the file.

And thanks for yours, Col @Eastsidepilot. In fact there's a photo of that Crab at Stranraer in July 1957 as far back as post #476 on 29th December 2020 (!) However, I had no idea that it was a unique loco to that shed. I suspect it's from the same film as the photo above (and 55240) and has become separated due to the vagaries of Tim's somewhat chaotic filing system.

Rebuilt Royal Scot 46105 Cameron Highlander advised to be at Willesden in 1956. However this was a Polmadie engine since at least January 1948 (BR Database) so one has to wonder how it came to be at Willesden. Certainly that looks as though it could be Willesden long shed in the background but I have no references of Polmadie which would enable a comparison. In any event it was withdrawn in December 1962 and seen in store at Polmadie on 14th April 1963. (SLS). The loco was scrapped by J McWilliams, Shettleston (RO) where it was observed on 10th August 1964 (WHTS) although BR Database reports it was scrapped in May 1964.



Caprotti Black 5 4-6-0 44748 at Patricroft in 1960, although based on my knowledge and photos of both sheds I'd say this was more likely Willesden. The loco has been seen previously in post #3784 and in that case it was passing through Willesden. 44748 had been a Longsight engine since new in February 1948 although it went to Derby for a week on loan, also in February 1948 before being returned to Longsight a week later. (SLS). I wonder whether it was called in to Derby for some sort of test procedure. It was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). BR Database report it scrapped in December 1964 and WHTS that this was at Crewe Works although verification is required.



Britannia 70006 Robert Burns at Liverpool St in 1956, B1 61109 of Stratford Shed in the background. There’s a train in the Broad Street platform but it’s not possible to determine what it is. Robert Burns was recorded in Liverpool Street in post #199. It was a Norwich Thorpe loco at the time, from May 1951, going to March in December 1961 and then Carlisle Kingmoor in December 1963 where it was withdrawn in May1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at J McWilliams, Shettleston, (BR Database).



It’s Original Battle of Britain 34085 501 Squadron which was described to be at Battledown Flyover but is now believed to be at Brixton and here on the Golden Arrow although the date is unknown. The loco was at Stewarts Lane from April 1958, (SLS) was rebuilt in June 1960 (BR Database) and went to Bournemouth in January 1961 where it was withdrawn in September 1965. (SLS). Disposal was at Buttigieg’s, Newport (RO) where it was seen on 27th March and 11th April 1966 (WHTS) and BR Database reports a scrapping date of April the same year. This is a photo from Tim's collection and an original negative but is identified as "not one of mine" so copyright is awarded to "Unknown" although that may just be down to failing memory.



Brian

 

[AJC]

It’s Original Battle of Britain 34085 501 Squadron which was described to be at Battledown Flyover but is now believed to be at Brixton although the date is unknown. The loco was at Stewarts Lane from April 1958, (SLS) was rebuilt in June 1960 (BR Database) and went to Bournemouth in January 1961 where it was withdrawn in September 1965. (SLS). Disposal was at Buttigieg’s, Newport (RO) where it was seen on 27th March and 11th April 1966 (WHTS) and BR Database reports a scrapping date of April the same year. This is a photo from Tim's collection and an original negative but is identified as "not one of mine" so copyright is awarded to "Unknown" although that may just be down to failing memory.

View attachment 237147

Brian

The 'Arrow is definitely at Brixton, and a really nice image at that.

Adam

 

[malc60015]

The location has been edited to read Hurlford, Martin @Martin Shaw , and thank you for correcting that. Thanks too for the further and detailed info about the precise location of the photo. All added to the file.

And thanks for yours, Col @Eastsidepilot. In fact there's a photo of that Crab at Stranraer in July 1957 as far back as post #476 on 29th December 2020 (!) However, I had no idea that it was a unique loco to that shed. I suspect it's from the same film as the photo above (and 55240) and has become separated due to the vagaries of Tim's somewhat chaotic filing system.

Rebuilt Royal Scot 46105 Cameron Highlander advised to be at Willesden in 1956. However this was a Polmadie engine since at least January 1948 (BR Database) so one has to wonder how it came to be at Willesden. Certainly that looks as though it could be Willesden long shed in the background but I have no references of Polmadie which would enable a comparison. In any event it was withdrawn in December 1962 and seen in store at Polmadie on 14th April 1963. (SLS). The loco was scrapped by J McWilliams, Shettleston (RO) where it was observed on 10th August 1964 (WHTS) although BR Database reports it was scrapped in May 1964.

View attachment 237145

Caprotti Black 5 4-6-0 44748 at Patricroft in 1960, although based on my knowledge and photos of both sheds I'd say this was more likely Willesden. The loco has been seen previously in post #3784 and in that case it was passing through Willesden. 44748 had been a Longsight engine since new in February 1948 although it went to Derby for a week on loan, also in February 1948 before being returned to Longsight a week later. (SLS). I wonder whether it was called in to Derby for some sort of test procedure. It was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). BR Database report it scrapped in December 1964 and WHTS that this was at Crewe Works although verification is required.

View attachment 237148

Britannia 70006 Robert Burns at Liverpool St in 1956, B1 61109 of Stratford Shed in the background. There’s a train in the Broad Street platform but it’s not possible to determine what it is. Robert Burns was recorded in Liverpool Street in post #199. It was a Norwich Thorpe loco at the time, from May 1951, going to March in December 1961 and then Carlisle Kingmoor in December 1963 where it was withdrawn in May1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at J McWilliams, Shettleston, (BR Database).

View attachment 237146

It’s Original Battle of Britain 34085 501 Squadron which was described to be at Battledown Flyover but is now believed to be at Brixton although the date is unknown. The loco was at Stewarts Lane from April 1958, (SLS) was rebuilt in June 1960 (BR Database) and went to Bournemouth in January 1961 where it was withdrawn in September 1965. (SLS). Disposal was at Buttigieg’s, Newport (RO) where it was seen on 27th March and 11th April 1966 (WHTS) and BR Database reports a scrapping date of April the same year. This is a photo from Tim's collection and an original negative but is identified as "not one of mine" so copyright is awarded to "Unknown" although that may just be down to failing memory.

View attachment 237147

Brian

What a cracking shot of the Scot 46105.
cheers malc

 

[JimG]

..... 55240 appears to be someone's pet, the equal I'd say of the Liverpool Street pilots. I understand this to be a Caledonian/Pickersgill 431 or 2P 0-4-4T. It's certainly recorded as a Stranraer loco at this time and had been since February 1957 .....

View attachment 237083

Brian

It was the habit if some Scottish sheds to carry on decoration of the locomotive smokebox door up to the end of steam. I've seen some pictures over the years of (even) Standard tanks carrying similar decoration on the south side of the Clyde. Never on the north side, so maybe a very localised habit.

Jim

 

[oldravendale]

Much appreciated Adam @AJC and Malc @malc60015 .

I've seen a few other Scottish locos bulled up like 55240, Jim @JimG . That was when there seemed to be some real pride in working for the railway.

Caprotti Black 5 44747 outside the long shed at Willesden in 1957. The loco was allocated to Bristol Barrow Road in July 1949, Derby in July 1957, Longsight June 1958, Patricroft February and Longsight in May 1959 where it was withdrawn in May 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped in Crewe Works (WHTS) during November 1963. (BR Database).



At Kentish Town in 1957 and looking brand new which it pretty much was is Standard Class 4 4-6-0 75055. The loco was new to Bedford in January 1957, Leicester Midland in January 1960, Nottingham March 1961 and back to Leicester Midland in March and then Derby in October 1962. Thereafter Bletchley in June 1963, Shrewsbury in October 1964 and back to Bletchley a week later, then Machynlleth in July 1965, Shrewsbury in December 1966 and finally Croes Newydd in April where it was withdrawn in May 1967, although there’s a possibly spurious allocation to Stoke in the month after withdrawal. (SLS). The loco was scrapped at Garnham, Harris and Elton, Chesterfield, at the end of February 1968. (BR Database).



Castle Class 5029 Nunney Castle wearing an 81A Old Oak Common shed plate in Old Oak Shed Yard in 1957. The loco had been at Old Oak since new in 1934 (BR Database) then Worcester in April 1958, Newton Abbot in May, Shrewsbury June, Newton Abbot again July and Laira in November 1959 then finally Cardiff East Dock in December 1962 and withdrawal in December 1963. (SLS). It was sold to Woodham’s, Barry for disposal and
5029 Nunney Castle provides further details.



There is no information associated with this image but I wonder whether it’s a J69 at Southwold. There's no information attached to this although it's from an original negative. Tim has endorsed it as "not one of mine" so the copyright reflects this but once again it may be a matter of failing memory.



Brian

 

[AJC]

There is no information associated with this image but I wonder whether it’s a J69 at Southwold. There's no information attached to this although it's from an original negative. Tim has endorsed it as "not one of mine" so the copyright reflects this but once again it may be a matter of failing memory.

View attachment 237258

Brian

Right number of wheels and a 'Wold' placename, but that's a J72 (or maybe a J71? They look fairly similar to this southerner) at Easingwold, Yorkshire. As you'll know, any standard gauge loco at Southwold would be tricky since the only rails ever to reach it were set to 3' gauge. Compare with this one: THE EASINGWOLD RAILWAY - Paul Johnson

Adam

EDIT - the number on the smokebox plate requires a bit of the eye of faith, but the last digit looks like a '3' which suggests that 68313 might be the loco, in which case it's a J71.

 

[Rob R]

It's a J72 at Easingwold


Right number of wheels and a 'Wold' placename, but that's a J72 (or maybe a J71? They look fairly similar to this southerner) at Easingwold, Yorkshire. As you'll know, any standard gauge loco at Southwold would be tricky since the only rails ever to reach it were set to 3' gauge. Compare with this one: THE EASINGWOLD RAILWAY - Paul Johnson

Adam

EDIT - the number on the smokebox plate requires a bit of the eye of faith, but the last digit looks like a '3' which suggests that 68313 might be the loco, in which case it's a J71.

J71 had bigger wheels than J72 (4ft). Looking at the splashers, J71 seems about right.