Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Dave Holt]

46 8Fs exchanged their 4000 gallon Stanier tenders with Standard 3500 gallon (Fowler) tenders between 1957 and 1960. The majority came from Jubilees and four from un-rebuilt Patriots - according to the Wild Swan profile book.
Dave.

 

[Osgood]

Thanks Dave.
I wonder why that was done?
(Heads off to dig out any books on 8Fs).

 

[Dave Holt]

I think it was a case of the Jubilees and Patriots being thought to a having greater benefit of a 4000 gallon tender than a freight loco, rather than a desire to rob the 8Fs.
Dave.

 

[Osgood]

Oh, that would make sense, thank you.

 

[AndyB]

Img944 - Behind 48629 looks like an ex-LMS brake van. I'll leave it to others better versed than me to comment on the variety of ballast wagons.
There only appears to be 2 workers in both imgs 944 and 945, and in 944 both are stood in the 4ft. I assume that one (on the right) would have been a lookout? (I don't have any rule books to reference from that period). Quite a rare picture to show a ballast wagon mid-discharge.

Img945 - the 2 workmen have taken refuge by the footbridge support as 46170 passes through. The distinctive pub on the right is now grade 2 listed with its original 1938 interior and architectural features, but no longer sporting the 'Courage Ales' signs.

 

[Arun Sharma]

I think it was a case of the Jubilees and Patriots being thought to a having greater benefit of a 4000 gallon tender than a freight loco, rather than a desire to rob the 8Fs.
Dave.

The two 8F that I remember from bunking 1a were 48601 and 48603 which both had Fowler rivetted tenders. They also had the star painted on the cab sides - meaning that they were balanced for higher speeds [I think]. I don't know what sort of distances or routes they covered but I am reliably informed that the average large steam engine will run out of water before irt runs out of coal so, given the proximity of troughs on the WCML, it might not matter very much what the water capacity of the tender was.
In terms of appearance, it possibly mattered more to the fare paying customers that their Scot or Jubilee had a tender as vaguely modern looking as their engine?

 

[oldravendale]

I appreciate you kicking off the debate about Fowler tenders on 8Fs, Tony @Osgood (got it right this time!) Then Dave @Dave Holt for starting to fill in the gaps and Arun @Arun Sharma for a bit of remembered and local info and some suggestions about why the tenders could have been swapped.

Martyn @3 LINK . I'm more than happy to add you to the notional list so thank you but any publication of these photos remains a long way away at the moment. The "Best of the Best" volume was and will remain unique as a collection of Tim's photos and is lodged with his family.

Then Andy @AndyB - useful stuff there and I'd failed to mention the ballast wagon as you say in mid discharge and The Windermere pub which has always in my time been so much a part of the landscape at South Kenton Station.

Euston on 9th April 1962 with previously seen (posts 2262 and #3810) Black 5 44713 leaving with what is probably an outer suburban local train. There’s an EMU which became Class 501 with a lower half cab yellow warning patch on a Watford train visible on the left hand side of the frame. The Black 5 was allocated to Crewe South in June 1958, Northampton in December 1962, Chester in July and Stoke in October 1964 and finally Lostock Hall in July 1967 where it was withdrawn at the end of steam in August 1968. (SLS). It went to Draper’s, Hull (RO) where it was cut up on 12th March 1969 (WHTS).



Rebuilt Patriot 45528 R.E.M.E. about to leave Euston on 9th April 1962. The loco was allocated to Willesden in January/February 1961 where it was withdrawn week ending 19th January 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped on 22nd March 1963 (BR Database) at Crewe Works. (WHTS).



An unidentified Britannia appearing to overtake a 1938 stock Bakerloo Line train, but all is not as it seems. The Britannia is on the up fast line to Euston and the Bakerloo Line train is on the down DC line to Harrow & Wealdstone and Watford. If memory serves me right at the time of the photo some Bakerloo Line trains ran right through to Watford.



9F 92078 at South Kenton in May 1963 on what appears to be an empty minerals train. The loco was new to Toton on 31st March 1956 (BR Database) and moved to Warrington Dallam in March 1965 where it was withdrawn in May 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at T J Thomson & Sons Ltd at Stockton in January 1968. (BR Database). That's probably another class 501 unit on the extreme eft of frame and here also with a lower half cab yellow warning patch.



Brian

 

[Barry37]

With apologies I credited @Osgood with @76043 (or the other way around) ! I apologise to both. The comments are truly valued.

Anyway Tony @76043 (the correct one this time!) thanks for yours about the GWR vans. Doubtless, as you suggest, this was a local van train but despite many hours alongside the LNWR main line around where the photo was taken it's not a scene I remember. Then, Adam @AJC thanks for expanding the data. It's always good to see an "ancient" van...

Thanks Roger @Roger Pound for the memories adding some background to the photo. As you say, smoking at work was not an issue in those days! At the time I was probably on 40 a day. I (painfully) stopped over night about 40 years ago.

8F 48629 on the slow lines with an Engineers'/ ballast train at South Kenton on 8th April 1962. Note the workman with no hi-vis jacket stepping in to a running line. We've seen the 8F previously in posts #1244 and #2625. It lived at Willesden at the time of the photo where it had been a fixture since at least January 1948 (BR Database), moving to Birkenhead Mollington Street in October, then Saltley at the end of November 1963. (SLS). It was withdrawn in September 1966 and went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped by the end of the year. (BR Database).

Of note is the pair of bare wires running along the edge of the roof of South Kenton Station. Guards had a brass end to their green flag which they could (probably had to) touch to the two wires to ring a bell so that the motorman heard a bell confirming that the train was cleared to go.

View attachment 251968

The works trains still being on the slow lines Royal Scot ex-”Fury” 46170 British Legion on an up express at South Kenton on 8th April 1962. It was allocated to Crewe North in July 1960, was loaned to Camden in August, back to Crewe in September and on loan to Camden again in October before a return to Crewe North in December – all in 1960 – and a final allocation to Llandudno Junction in October 1962 and withdrawal in December the same year. (SLS). The loco was observed at Crewe Works on 1st January 1963 (WHTS) where it was scrapped on 11th January1963. (BR Database).

View attachment 251969

Previously in post #3586 was Princess Coronation 46221 Queen Elizabeth here at the buffer stops at Euston on 9th April 1962 and then backing out (a movement I simply don’t remember from my own observations) on the back of what was, presumably, empty stock. I assume the train engine is pushing out the empty stock and the Coronation is on the end of the train in order to save a light engine movement. The loco was allocated to Carlisle Upperby in February/March 1961, then Carlisle Kingmoor in March/April and finally back to Upperby in April/May 1962 where it was withdrawn in May 1963. (SLS). The Railway Observer reported it in C Shop at Crewe Works on 22nd June 1963 after a failure at Camden. It was scrapped in July 1963 (BR Database) and it’s reasonable to assume that the deed was carried out at Crewe.

View attachment 251970

View attachment 251971

Brian

48629 in the first photo, is probably the source of the steam above the coaches in the second photo. It has a Stanier brake van, plus Mermaid side-tipping ballast wagons – their rounded ends can be seen behind the hopper wagons. Interesting to see that the Dogfish hopper discharging ballast seems to be nearly empty, as it is higher than the loaded hoppers either side (its buffer heads are higher).
Also, the line of lights along the track for night working – presumably a generator somewhere off to the left.

 

[Barry37]

Img944 - Behind 48629 looks like an ex-LMS brake van. I'll leave it to others better versed than me to comment on the variety of ballast wagons.
There only appears to be 2 workers in both imgs 944 and 945, and in 944 both are stood in the 4ft. I assume that one (on the right) would have been a lookout? (I don't have any rule books to reference from that period). Quite a rare picture to show a ballast wagon mid-discharge.

Img945 - the 2 workmen have taken refuge by the footbridge support as 46170 passes through. The distinctive pub on the right is now grade 2 listed with its original 1938 interior and architectural features, but no longer sporting the 'Courage Ales' signs.

The ballast hoppers are a mixture of Dogfish and Catfish, followed by a Shark plough brake van. The first photo below is inside a Catfish, which only have one central door – and only one discharge wheel on the end.
Dogfish have three doors (and three wheels on the end) – second photo, the curved parts are the sideways doors, the central one is hidden under the V-shaped rib.

 

[Osgood]

... Interesting to see that the Dogfish hopper discharging ballast seems to be nearly empty, as it is higher than the loaded hoppers either side (its buffer heads are higher).
...

 

[Barry37]

I appreciate you kicking off the debate about Fowler tenders on 8Fs, Tony @Osgood (got it right this time!) Then Dave @Dave Holt for starting to fill in the gaps and Arun @Arun Sharma for a bit of remembered and local info and some suggestions about why the tenders could have been swapped.

Martyn @3 LINK . I'm more than happy to add you to the notional list so thank you but any publication of these photos remains a long way away at the moment. The "Best of the Best" volume was and will remain unique as a collection of Tim's photos and is lodged with his family.

Then Andy @AndyB - useful stuff there and I'd failed to mention the ballast wagon as you say in mid discharge and The Windermere pub which has always in my time been so much a part of the landscape at South Kenton Station.

Euston on 9th April 1962 with previously seen (posts 2262 and #3810) Black 5 44713 leaving with what is probably an outer suburban local train. There’s an EMU which became Class 501 with a lower half cab yellow warning patch on a Watford train visible on the left hand side of the frame. The Black 5 was allocated to Crewe South in June 1958, Northampton in December 1962, Chester in July and Stoke in October 1964 and finally Lostock Hall in July 1967 where it was withdrawn at the end of steam in August 1968. (SLS). It went to Draper’s, Hull (RO) where it was cut up on 12th March 1969 (WHTS).

View attachment 251990

Rebuilt Patriot 45528 R.E.M.E. about to leave Euston on 9th April 1962. The loco was allocated to Willesden in January/February 1961 where it was withdrawn week ending 19th January 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped on 22nd March 1963 (BR Database) at Crewe Works. (WHTS).

View attachment 251991

An unidentified Britannia appearing to overtake a 1938 stock Bakerloo Line train, but all is not as it seems. The Britannia is on the up fast line to Euston and the Bakerloo Line train is on the down DC line to Harrow & Wealdstone and Watford. If memory serves me right at the time of the photo some Bakerloo Line trains ran right through to Watford.

View attachment 251992

9F 92078 at South Kenton in May 1963 on what appears to be an empty minerals train. The loco was new to Toton on 31st March 1956 (BR Database) and moved to Warrington Dallam in March 1965 where it was withdrawn in May 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at T J Thomson & Sons Ltd at Stockton in January 1968. (BR Database). That's probably another class 501 unit on the extreme eft of frame and here also with a lower half cab yellow warning patch.

View attachment 251993

Brian

The first vehicle behind Patriot 45528 leaving Euston, appears to be an LNER Horsebox (or possibly LMS). Destination may be Holyhead, as there's a photo of a train at Prestatyn, said to be the 11:20 from Euston, with three horseboxes. Presumably race horses going home to Ireland from Ascot or Epsom.

 

[Dan Randall]

The ballast hoppers are a mixture of Dogfish and Catfish, followed by a Shark plough brake van.

I’m going to stick my neck out here and say it’s not a Shark at the end of the hoppers, but an ex LNER brake van* (like the BR standard one we know and love, but with shorter footboards)….

The footboards appear to be no longer than the outside edges the verandas (the dark, vertical rectangles) and the duckets are the right shape for the LNER & BR vans.

Also, Sharks have a central pillar in the veranda ends, whereas this brake van, just has a bloke stood there!

*Edit: It might even be one of the earlier LNER vans, without the end platforms?


Regards

Dan

 

[cmax]

David Postle, Adrian White and the Kidderminster Railway Museum have worked with Colin Gifford to produce a lovely 12" x 12" format book of his colour images - in the wink of an eye which has just been published and available from the KRM.

A nice example of a well designed and produced book, and I would highly recommend it for its superb content (late steam era, plenty of industrial interest too).
One of those books you can enjoy for its quality alone, not just its content.

I can second your comments about "in the wink of an eye" my copy arrived this morning, not had a really good look at it yet, but the pictures 21 to 31 of Prince of Wales and Glasshoughton colliery are worth the cover price alone.

Highly recommended.

Gary

 

[Martin Shaw]

There are some clues re the unidentified Britannia in #950. It is BR AWS fitted which rule out 15 of them, and it retains it smoke deflector hand rails which rules out a further 29. Of the remaining 11, one 70047 was unnamed which eliminates it so of the 10 suspects it is one with a short nameplate. It looks blown up as though it might be two words of which 70014 Iron Duke appears the most likely, it was a Willesden engine at the time.

Martin

 

[Arun Sharma]

Brian
Pedant role on.
The 1938TS used to travel routinely to Watford Junction - on the Bakerloo Line. Watford Station is on the Metropolitan Line so would almost never be visited by 1938TS - other than those few latterly in departmental [non-passenger] roles such as pilot motor cars, weed killing trains and even tunnel cleaning trains.
Pedant role off.

 

[Barry37]

I’m going to stick my neck out here and say it’s not a Shark at the end of the hoppers, but an ex LNER brake van* (like the BR standard one we know and love, but with shorter footboards)….
View attachment 252004
The footboards appear to be no longer than the outside edges the verandas (the dark, vertical rectangles) and the duckets are the right shape for the LNER & BR vans.

Also, Sharks have a central pillar in the veranda ends, whereas this brake van, just has a bloke stood there!

*Edit: It might even be one of the earlier LNER vans, without the end platforms?


Regards

Dan

Oops! You're right – should've looked a bit harder. LNER Toad E seems more likely, as the body looks quite close to the loco and Dogfish, without space for the end platforms.
Odd that it isn't a plough van, though there could be one at the other end.

 

[Dan Randall]

LNER Toad E seems more likely, as the body looks quite close to the loco and Dogfish, without space for the end platforms.

I’d agree with that, but couldn’t remember the “Toad E“ designation.


Regards

Dan

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

An unidentified Britannia appearing to overtake a 1938 stock Bakerloo Line train, but all is not as it seems. The Britannia is on the up fast line to Euston and the Bakerloo Line train is on the down DC line to Harrow & Wealdstone and Watford. If memory serves me right at the time of the photo some Bakerloo Line trains ran right through to Watford.

Bakerloo Line services to Watford Junction were originally cut back to Stonebridge Park in 1982. A rush hour service was restored to Harrow and Wealdstone (current terminus) in 1984 with a full service in 1989. In order to restore the Watford Junction service the 4th rail would have to be reinstated.

 

[Cransford]

I’m going to stick my neck out here and say it’s not a Shark at the end of the hoppers, but an ex LNER brake van* (like the BR standard one we know and love, but with shorter footboards)….
View attachment 252004
The footboards appear to be no longer than the outside edges the verandas (the dark, vertical rectangles) and the duckets are the right shape for the LNER & BR vans.

Also, Sharks have a central pillar in the veranda ends, whereas this brake van, just has a bloke stood there!

*Edit: It might even be one of the earlier LNER vans, without the end platforms?


Regards

Dan

I'll throw in a possible operational consideration for this one. Work is on Down Slow (South Kenton or North Wembley) so ballast would have been out/back to Willesden. As menioned, if on this train the plough brake would be on north end of train with brake at south end. Imagining a potential use of loco power, the first train (out of site standing north of work) would be top ballast in such as Sealion hoppers, locomotive would detach and run off to Harrow to clear block and either away to Watford or back to Willesden for next bit! Second train (there might even have been a further train if job of some length) runs across job to stand clear with plough brake at north end. Loco detaches and runs to couple to Sealion train. If a new third loco, this would have top/tailing the train and becomes single engine - or - first loco runs to Wembley then back into blockage to become train engine of the hoppers. Simples! Once placed and shunting completed, just start digging!

I'd forgotten quite how much fun sorting trains at weekends used to be!

Paul

 

[hrmspaul]

the first train (out of site standing north of work) would be top ballast in such as Sealion hoppers, locomotive would detach and run off to Harrow to clear block and either away to Watford or back to Willesden for next bit! Second train (there might even have been a further train if job of some length)

Paul

Not a SEALION as they weren't introduced until 1970. The LSWR introduced bogie ballast hopper, with BR building just 50, named as WALRUS. I am doubtful a bogie wagon would have been used by the LMR. The variety of hoppers is interesting, as mentioned each delivers the ballast in different ways, with the MERMAID seen in the second photo being side tipping into the 6ft.

Paul