7mm: A Tale of Two 40s

[Dikitriki]

OK, now for something completely different.....

Eric Smith was a wonderful modeller in plastic card, almost without peer (and I don't say that lightly). You will never have heard of him, because he never completed anything, principally because he was never satisfied with anything he did, always seeking perfection, and never being happy with anything less.

He died recently, and I was fortunate to acquire from the estate his class 40 and a 2 car Derby Lightweight DMU. I think the estate was quite glad I had them as there is a chance they will be finished with all sympathy to his original work, rather than being left to the wider Ebay fraternity.

They are not urgent, but I do want to finish them without spending an inordinate amount of time on them, as they have to be fitted in around other modelling commitments. I have been kicking around my approach to the 40 - and I know very little about this class of locomotive - and my first task is to somehow make it rather more robust than it is at the moment.It will have to be suitable for running in exhibition conditions, and not be a display case model to be handled with kid gloves.

I have at the moment a nearly finished body, and 2 nearly finished bogies, or at least the external parts. I don't have a fuel tank, bogie front fittings, power components, or any of the dangly bits off the bottom of the body.

I took some pictiures of the bogie frames.....







It was too dark for the body to show up - it's painted green - so I shall have to wait for a sunny day.

Eric made superb masters for the axleboxes, springs, sand boxes, and round covers on the bogie front, and cast them in resin. Unfortunately, all the springs were missing from one side of one bogie. I asked the estate to look out for the moulds, and I was recently presented with a yoghurt pot containing all the rubber moulds, and in fine condition they were too at first inspection.

Thoughts at the moment are.

* For the power units, I thought 2 x ABC 40 bogies would be nice. At a cost of course, but they will add a robustness and weight that is missing at the moment, and for only a fairly modest premium over other propulsion methods.

* For the missing bogie details, David Parkins sells most if not all as separate components.

* Fuel tank. (Edit - this should be water tank) Hmm, I don't really want to scratch build one, though I will if necessary. I might throw myself on the mercy of Laurie at JLTRT and see if I can buy one off them, or maybe Mick can bring his 40 project forward.

* Under body detail. Scratch build/spares box, no great problem if I can get decent prototype information.

So that's where I am. An interesting little project that should be reasonably quick, which in my case is almost certainly famous last words.

Cheers

Richard

 

[Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen]

Richard,
This sounds like a fascinating project. I've built a JLTRT 40 and am quite pleased with it. I used the ABC motor gearboxes and chaindrive fitted to the kit bogie moulding which has proved to run extremely well. I've always found Laurie to be very helpful and accomodating so he is well worth speaking to about the components you still require Mick (Mickoo) has loads of info on 40s and will I'm sure be pleased to help, I've seen and played with his frame etching and it really is superb.
good luck
Tim

 

[mickoo]

Bit late in the day so I'll make my observations quick.

Very nice and tidy work, especially in Plasticard, however, some fundamental shape flaws in the bogies, nothing you can do at this stage other than accept them and move on and it does really depend on how accurate you want the model, if it's just to finish it off as a mark of respect for the author, no problems, just leave well alone.

First up is the buffer beam, it looks like it has been mounted too high on the side frames, it needs moving down by a good 2-3 mm from those shots and then the side frames around the pony wheel extending downward to match. In its current position I think it's going to impact the bottom of the nose, or if mounted to clear it will then make the side frames have too big a gap between them and the body side.

Second, no jog in the frames at the front end, the frames are wider at the front around the pony wheel to allow it to swing just that little more.

Third, the rear end where it steps down looks a little out and the rear cross beam is too deep.

Other than that, they look really good and the castings for the springs and axle boxes are neat and tidy

Good luck with JLTRT, I asked them at Telford if they would consider selling some class 20 bogie side frames and the answer quite pi55ed me off and left a sour taste for several hours afterwards, wasn't so much what was said but the way it was said, so best of luck on that score, you may have better connections than some stranger at a show LOL

Fuel tanks are not too hard, quite a simple box affair, just watch your dates for some changes made over their lifetime.

If you want I could ask PPH to whizz off another set of NS frames, but their outside only and don't get you much further than you already are, plus there are no instructions but most of it is common sense and only a PM away and I could number a copy of the CAD artwork and then do some photos with arrows and such to show the parts. I did consider bringing mine up to Telford to show y'all but clean forgot!

Anyway, looking forward to seeing the body

Addendum, just dug this out, might or might not be of some help, scaled down for the forum.


One tome you do need is MLI N0.175 class 40's there are loads of others but for a one off project, easier to just ask and I'll see what I can find out for you

Addendum 2, browse B Daniels site for detail shots here http://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/sets/72157627028690682/

 

[SteveO]

Really nice work. I'd love to see a pic of the DMU when you get good light.

 

[Dikitriki]

Bit late in the day so I'll make my observations quick.

First up is the buffer beam, it looks like it has been mounted too high on the side frames, it needs moving down by a good 2-3 mm from those shots and then the side frames around the pony wheel extending downward to match. In its current position I think it's going to impact the bottom of the nose, or if mounted to clear it will then make the side frames have too big a gap between them and the body side.

Second, no jog in the frames at the front end, the frames are wider at the front around the pony wheel to allow it to swing just that little more.

Third, the rear end where it steps down looks a little out and the rear cross beam is too deep.

Fuel tanks are not too hard, quite a simple box affair, just watch your dates for some changes made over their lifetime.

If you want I could ask PPH to whizz off another set of NS frames, but their outside only and don't get you much further than you already are, plus there are no instructions but most of it is common sense and only a PM away and I could number a copy of the CAD artwork and then do some photos with arrows and such to show the parts. I did consider bringing mine up to Telford to show y'all but clean forgot!

Addendum, just dug this out, might or might not be of some help, scaled down for the forum.
View attachment 24824

Hi Mick

Thanks for your observations, I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than I would come forward.

I have had a look at Brian Daniels pictures: what an excellent resource. I'm not convinced that the front end is that far out, looking at 40012 (6), but it has to be got right, as the bogie/body gap is critical to the looks of the model. I probably won't do anything about the joggle, unless it impacts running (but at least there can't be any shorts), and as to the rear end..., can I ask you to email the drawing please.

Your offer to do a set of etches is kind, but that would defeat the object of using what I have, and finishing it off speedily. I'll wait until you produce your full 1/32 kit if I may.

Richard

 

[mickoo]

Further, hope the above is not taken as a dismissive? I know what your like with your details LOL

With the body there's the obvious nose differences but there are two other differences that will define you chosen running number. There are two types of cant rail grill layout and two types of boiler vent and plate work, once I see the model I'll be able to give you a block of numbers to choose your prototype from

The bogie isn't 'that' far out, but might be far enough to create visual issues when joined to the body. I looked at image 6 last night and my bogie and though hmm my buffer beam looks a little low, but then compared it with other photos and the drawings and it looks better, I don't think I actually took that measurement at York but I can't think they change between locos?

 

[Dikitriki]

Mick

Not taken as dismissive at all, and I value all input. I'd rather be told of any flaws now, than after painting

Richard

 

[mickoo]

No problems On the way out of the door I grabbed my class 40 digital folder, there's over 2000 images on there so I think I can find photos of your given loco for you. Whilst cycling to work I pondered the bogie and figured that the step up at the front variations is down to camera angles and the fact that the side frame is inset from the buffer beam edge, what we need is a good side low angle shot, and as if by magic!

This is a crop of D234 at Tring, copyright exists with original owner and shown here for indicative purposes only. I think I may have one or two others but this one I remember well.

I've done a quick photo shop and drawn some lines in of the salient parts, the important one will be the buffer beam centre line in relation to the bogie, I've scaled off this photo and it's pretty good, thus with the known height of the buffer beam above rail head (3'.5½") and front pony wheel diameter (3'.0") you should be able to calculate how high the buffer beam sits above the side frames and how high the bottom of the side frame around the pony truck is above the bogie base line.

By some visual mental maths I reckon the buffer base dia is about 10" and the buffer beam sticks up above the side frame by 2", maybe 3" at most, 1.1 to 1.75 mm in O gauge, also just checked my CAD drawing and I've etched it at 0.9 mm so I reckon mine is too low, which has kinda ticked me off! LOL

Hope that makes sense?

Kindest

 

[Dikitriki]

Hi

I started to take some body pics inside, but the loco is too big and dark....so when the sun came out, I dashed outside and completed the full set - both sides, both ends and roof. The model is in pretty decent condition considering it has been in storage, with only minor repair work needed. The shell is stable as it has a floor and most of the cab interior is complete.











In addition, I have had a very helpful email back from Laurie, but first I have to identify exactly what loco I've got. And when I say 'I', I mean Mick . So, what numbers can I use over what period, and which were likely to have been around Oldham/Manchester?

Cheers

Richard

 

[Heather Kay]

This is impressive stuff.

I once contemplated making the LMS pioneer 10000 in 7mm scale from styrene. I was going to try and construct it like the real thing, with the sides suspended and everything.

One of those projects that will never see the light of day.

 

[Steph Dale]

Richard,

That's an inspirational piece of scratchbuilding, in any material. As someone who frequently dabbles with styrene construction I can see it's a ruddy masterpiece and would have welcomed the opportunity to learn some of the techniques in use.

In terms of it's completion I'll quickly mention that there's no over-riding drive to make the inner frames in brass (or indeed any other metal). If you are comfortable with the idea then there's no reason they shouldn't be made in styrene; 0.060" with brass bushing can work very well (and helps with split axles). However, while you've got Laurie's attention, couldn't you ask him for a set of the inners from the JLTRT 40 or 45?

One thought I have had relates to the construction of the body; has it got motor cut-outs? If not, are you happy to cut them? There aren't many diesel drive solutions that keep the motorisation within the height of the bogie. Otherwise, I tend to agree that the ABC motor bogie and its off-the-shelf-ness and solidity must appeal, although it then ceases to be a quick build; you may have to wait some months for their arrival!

One thought (did I mention this to you at Telford?) would be to build something around the PRMRP bogie etch. I've just looked at their site and they're £19.50ea inc. bearings for the 6-wheel variant.

It looks like it'll be a cracking model when complete and can only admire the sensitivity with which you're approaching it. Please keep this thread updated as you go, I'll be very interested to see how it all works out...

Steph

 

[Phill Dyson]

Could we see some close ups of the various grills when you get chance?

 

[mickoo]

Yup, that ticks all the boxes very accomplished work in any material, a view inside would be most informative as to how he formed the cant rail curvature and kept it a constant radius for its full length, especially around the engine room grill area.

Ok what you have is a disc fitted, Stones Vapor boiler class 40, so your numbers are 201-259/ 267-286/ 305-324 to narrow it further is difficult as Oldham is fringe LMR country for 40's so I reckon it might be a Leeds or Carlisle loco, though Newton Heath was always a hot spot for them in later days. But if we add Crewe and Longsight in then it's going to be 201-236/ 267-269/ 305-324 the holes are ER or ScR or odd ones that probably would not get there. Having said that, you could get a York ER one turn up on a York-Liverpool train through Manchester Victoria. This info is from the first shed allocation in 58-59, if you have a specific year then I might be able to get a hold of the relevant ABC and double check for you.

For the record, small yellow ends started to come in around 1963 so if that falls in your time line then you could do that. Note also that D324 didn't enter service until June 61 so dates may or may not be important.

Regarding what you need, well first off you need vertical bars in the cab windows the partition off the quarterlights, then your going to need to add a diagonal brace to the radiator intake (large grill on the side) and then you will need to add a frost grill over the top, you can still see the brace through the frost grill so may as well add it first. Locos in later years had the frost grill removed but I believe the LMR always fitted them, even to locos that had lost them from other divisions and were transferred to the LMR.

You'll also need a water tank, that's the tank between the bogies, fuel tank is in the main body, you'll also need eight small air tanks in this area as well, two lots of two each side and located about the end of each tank. One other factor with water tanks is age and loco dependent, the first 100 were built smooth sided, after that they had re-enforcing bars welded to the outside, the first 100 were retro fitted starting around 62 but some were still smooth sided in late 63. The rest are small details like tank fillers and hoses under the body side, I'd have to look in the JLTRT kit to see what they have included.

I measured the JLTRT buffer beam heigh above the side frames, it's 1.45 mm so my initial visual guess wasn't too far out, I've ammended my etch accordingly as well as adjusting some other parts for easier construction on V.02.

Hope that helps.

 

[adrian]

Yup, that ticks all the boxes very accomplished work in any material, a view inside would be most informative as to how he formed the cant rail curvature and kept it a constant radius for its full length, especially around the engine room grill area.

Agreed to all of the above - an inside view would be nice to see how he accomplished such brilliant results. Is it built around a series of formers or did he manage to heat form the sheet to shape i.e. is the body shell hollow?

 

[Bob]

Great craftsmanship there alright. I agree with Jordan...it'll stand comparison with any kit alright.
To my eyes the various curves look just right.
It's nice that you're finishing it off Richard.

 

[Overseer]

Very impressive scratch building. The subtlety of the angles and curves, along with the grilles and window surounds, really add up to a very convincing model. It looks like it will be well worth completing. I would be worried about the fragility of the bogies if it is to be a working model - from experience with aged thin styrene sheet, one derailment and the side frames will shatter or at best lose chunks.

Definitely one to watch.

 

[lancer1027]

Wow very impressive.

 

[Ressaldar]

a real expert to form plastic like that.

cheers

Mike

 

[Dikitriki]

Hi

Thanks for all the help and positive comments. It's nice to have it confirmed that it's as good as I thought it was. I shall get round to responding to individual posts later, but I have taken some more photos in response to requests.

The underside of the body has cut outs for the proposed motorisation, and I shall not be averse to enlarging them as necessary, In fact, I am likely to buld a brass frame to fit snugly inside the plastic body to provide strength, to reinforce the lower body, and to carry the bogies and any additional weight needed



It can be seen from this and the next shot that there is no internal structure round which the roof was fabricated. The roof appears to be one separate piece that was moulded to shape. In fact, I seem to recall the estate telling me that they had found the wooden formers.



A close up of the nose and one with further detail. I can and will improve on this, replacing the catches and lamp irons with brass detail.





And some of the grills.



Just looking this picture, the shape seems to have been captured fantastically well, complex and subtle.



A bit of barrelling in the above photo, the body is true!



and one of the roof.



I've had the opportunity to compare the body with that from JLTRT, and it stacks up pretty well.

I've taken the plunge and ordered 2 x 40 bogies RTR from ABC gears, and as Steph surmised, there is a delivery time of 12 weeks or so (collection at Reading is the target) so I guess there is not going to be too much progress until I get my hands on those.

Cheers for now.

Richard

 

[Simon]

That is a really lovely bit of modelling, definitely something for us Plastikard bodgers to aspire to.

I also like the thought that the model itself has a "history" of its own.

'tis a great hobby.

Simon