Breaking Ground - Finescale - of a sort
- Thread starter Richard Insole
- Start date
-
- Tags
- peter insole
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Thank you to all for your continued interest, and very generous offers of assistance. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it!
When I started measuring out the curve, as mentioned before, I made an initial mistake of completely misjudging the actual area available, however that error was then compounded as the job proceeded! I had started by ground marking using a peg and string, a perfectly adequate method of setting out a garden path
When I started measuring out the curve, as mentioned before, I made an initial mistake of completely misjudging the actual area available, however that error was then compounded as the job proceeded! I had started by ground marking using a peg and string, a perfectly adequate method of setting out a garden path
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Oops! A case of (most likely) ham-fisted keyboard operation there?! I was busy typing away, and the page made a peculiar jump! The cursor had disappeared, and at that point I realised that the damned computer had posted! We go to great lengths to make everything as idiot proof as possible - and then I come along!
Anyway, as I was saying: Setting out with string would have been fine for an ordinary garden path, but I needed to be much more accurate for bending the rails to a continuous radii - hence the bodged compass. I could not use the instrument on site however as I was hampered, not by a "Mulberry tree", but a very spikey Greengage variety instead!! Having assured myself that I had found the centre, and measured the string, I then copied that out onto a card template. All this is just a rather long-winded way of confessing that I also failed to record precisely what that critical dimension was!
I am afraid that since the start of the "easing" process I have been winging it - having found that by re-bending the inner rail to the outer profile, as marked on the template, the resulting curve would be a perfect fit within the site. It has been a simple case of rebuilding the panels, laying them out and finally re-cutting the trench for them to fit in. So far, this has proved to be working quite well...
The only annoying part was that the re-worked radii had created some wastage of rail - something that I had previously been so careful to avoid! The difference was negligible at the first three panel joints, but had multiplied by the fourth:
The original template being no longer of any use, I found it difficult to measure where the rail should be cut, so decided to do the job once the track had been laid, levelled and firmly tamped, and then judging the cut by "eye".
By the way, the last sleeper is slightly wonky, thus giving the impression that the rail joint is still not square. I will be slackening off and juggling it a bit when the next panel is dropped in anyway!
One problem with cutting rail on site is the loss of energy at the point of contact with the saw blade. I have found that by clamping a small, cast iron vice near to the cut provides an essential "damping" and energy reflecting effect, thus quite noticeably reducing the effort required.
Drilling two replacement fishplate holes was a fiddle, and the result was nowhere near as neat as the originals, but they will still work fine - and be hidden behind the plates anyway!
I must admit that whilst my enthusiasm and utter determination to complete the "loop" tracklaying is quite undimmed, I am finding all this work increasingly tiring. I just keep telling myself; "One more section of curve to do... and then I'm on the nice, easy straights again...!"
As soon as that bit is finally laid in, I will be able to accurately measure the radii - by extending a tape right across the rather disturbed building site - and poor Mr. O's embattled and battered flower beds!
Pete.
Anyway, as I was saying: Setting out with string would have been fine for an ordinary garden path, but I needed to be much more accurate for bending the rails to a continuous radii - hence the bodged compass. I could not use the instrument on site however as I was hampered, not by a "Mulberry tree", but a very spikey Greengage variety instead!! Having assured myself that I had found the centre, and measured the string, I then copied that out onto a card template. All this is just a rather long-winded way of confessing that I also failed to record precisely what that critical dimension was!
I am afraid that since the start of the "easing" process I have been winging it - having found that by re-bending the inner rail to the outer profile, as marked on the template, the resulting curve would be a perfect fit within the site. It has been a simple case of rebuilding the panels, laying them out and finally re-cutting the trench for them to fit in. So far, this has proved to be working quite well...
The only annoying part was that the re-worked radii had created some wastage of rail - something that I had previously been so careful to avoid! The difference was negligible at the first three panel joints, but had multiplied by the fourth:
The original template being no longer of any use, I found it difficult to measure where the rail should be cut, so decided to do the job once the track had been laid, levelled and firmly tamped, and then judging the cut by "eye".
By the way, the last sleeper is slightly wonky, thus giving the impression that the rail joint is still not square. I will be slackening off and juggling it a bit when the next panel is dropped in anyway!
One problem with cutting rail on site is the loss of energy at the point of contact with the saw blade. I have found that by clamping a small, cast iron vice near to the cut provides an essential "damping" and energy reflecting effect, thus quite noticeably reducing the effort required.
Drilling two replacement fishplate holes was a fiddle, and the result was nowhere near as neat as the originals, but they will still work fine - and be hidden behind the plates anyway!
I must admit that whilst my enthusiasm and utter determination to complete the "loop" tracklaying is quite undimmed, I am finding all this work increasingly tiring. I just keep telling myself; "One more section of curve to do... and then I'm on the nice, easy straights again...!"
As soon as that bit is finally laid in, I will be able to accurately measure the radii - by extending a tape right across the rather disturbed building site - and poor Mr. O's embattled and battered flower beds!
Pete.
Boyblunder
Western Thunderer
Pete, another (silly) solution to the flange friction problem. Seen in Elkhart yesterday, I believe it’s an automatic flange oiler:
Tom Insole
Western Thunderer
That took me a moment.
After 'sitting' and deliberating over the images it suddenly dawned upon me what was referenced fantastic!
Also agreed though. Better efforts for the wee man's tunnel should be made!
Tom
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Not quite so silly Robin, as rail lubricators are a very common solution to the problem of excessive friction here, as well as abroad! What is perhaps more surprising is both the sheer scale of the equipment shown in your photograph, and the rather dodgy use of a simple pallet for support of same!
During our recent, and previously reported visit to the East Anglia Transport Museum we had the pleasure of riding in a former Sheffield tram - a relatively new, long term loan addition to their fleet. Everyone in our party complained about the particularly loud squealing from below the floor. Although by appearance, the tram was a rather noticeably "modern" vehicle, clearly designed and built at a time when tramways were generally perceived as obsolescent, Sheffield's apparently backward decision to mount the type on a single, four wheeled "truck" does seem to have been somewhat counter intuitive?! I'm sorry, but I cannot help suspecting an overbearing influence of "bean counters" at work in that peculiar case?!
While the museum were undoubtedly delighted to provide a home for such an historic tram, it is, I am given to understand, quite busily destroying what remains of their precious trackwork whenever it is operated! The application of any mineral oil based lubricants to tramlines - installed as they are in roadways that are shared with pedestrians and other more conventionally wheeled vehicles would obviously be of questionable wisdom, so a safer alternative is required.
During our afternoon there, I noticed that immediately prior to each trip, one of the senior museum staff walked out along the line, and poured water from a nice, traditional looking, galvanised watering can into the flangeways at various "pinch" points!
I took particular note of that practice, and recognised the importance of avoiding unwanted contamination back here at home on our own little railway, so it did make me think for a few moments!
However, I have sadly come to the conclusion that our problem is twofold: Oil does adhere (by degree) to an impermeable surface, tending to run-off relatively slowly. Water, on the other hand does not! On tram lines, the flangeway is rolled integrally with the rail head, thus providing long, shallow and continuous troughs in which water can pool. When the wheel flanges cause displacement, all contact points are more or less guaranteed to be wetted.
Oh well! Back to the shovel for the time being!
Pete.
During our recent, and previously reported visit to the East Anglia Transport Museum we had the pleasure of riding in a former Sheffield tram - a relatively new, long term loan addition to their fleet. Everyone in our party complained about the particularly loud squealing from below the floor. Although by appearance, the tram was a rather noticeably "modern" vehicle, clearly designed and built at a time when tramways were generally perceived as obsolescent, Sheffield's apparently backward decision to mount the type on a single, four wheeled "truck" does seem to have been somewhat counter intuitive?! I'm sorry, but I cannot help suspecting an overbearing influence of "bean counters" at work in that peculiar case?!
While the museum were undoubtedly delighted to provide a home for such an historic tram, it is, I am given to understand, quite busily destroying what remains of their precious trackwork whenever it is operated! The application of any mineral oil based lubricants to tramlines - installed as they are in roadways that are shared with pedestrians and other more conventionally wheeled vehicles would obviously be of questionable wisdom, so a safer alternative is required.
During our afternoon there, I noticed that immediately prior to each trip, one of the senior museum staff walked out along the line, and poured water from a nice, traditional looking, galvanised watering can into the flangeways at various "pinch" points!
I took particular note of that practice, and recognised the importance of avoiding unwanted contamination back here at home on our own little railway, so it did make me think for a few moments!
However, I have sadly come to the conclusion that our problem is twofold: Oil does adhere (by degree) to an impermeable surface, tending to run-off relatively slowly. Water, on the other hand does not! On tram lines, the flangeway is rolled integrally with the rail head, thus providing long, shallow and continuous troughs in which water can pool. When the wheel flanges cause displacement, all contact points are more or less guaranteed to be wetted.
Oh well! Back to the shovel for the time being!
Pete.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Mechanical lubricators are for rolling stock at specific locations, more common are graphite sticks on locomotives, more so those with longer rigid wheel bases (three axles).
These are gaining momentum in the UK (one of the steam engines at GWSR had them fitted) but all (rigid axle) locos I saw in the US ten years ago had them, they're very effective at reducing flange wear. We fitted them to all our crane wheels on the port and the reduction in wear was marked, pretty much doubling the life of the rail and tripling that of the wheel.
Engines fitted with free floating axle boxes do not require them; the axle is allowed to twist in the truck when rim forces exceed the elasticity of the torsion bar, more modern locos have interconnecting linkages attached to the torsion bar that aid/lead the axle to twist in sharp curves.
The damper (circled) prevents the axle doing the dreaded handle bar wobble/oscillation.
All of which has no relevance here of course, save the graphite sticks, they might aid flange lubrication, more so as they don't leave a sticky mess everywhere.
These are gaining momentum in the UK (one of the steam engines at GWSR had them fitted) but all (rigid axle) locos I saw in the US ten years ago had them, they're very effective at reducing flange wear. We fitted them to all our crane wheels on the port and the reduction in wear was marked, pretty much doubling the life of the rail and tripling that of the wheel.
Engines fitted with free floating axle boxes do not require them; the axle is allowed to twist in the truck when rim forces exceed the elasticity of the torsion bar, more modern locos have interconnecting linkages attached to the torsion bar that aid/lead the axle to twist in sharp curves.
The damper (circled) prevents the axle doing the dreaded handle bar wobble/oscillation.
All of which has no relevance here of course, save the graphite sticks, they might aid flange lubrication, more so as they don't leave a sticky mess everywhere.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
I have just had a "doh" moment Mick! I already use graphite to lubricate the motion on the locomotive - and I chose that not only because it is extremely effective, but precisely because any excess material is fairly easy to wash off!
Thank you so much for the fantastic revelation of it's mainstream use in the US, and the increasing adoption "over here" too.
I need a couple of wagon loads of ballast delivering to the "loop" worksite tomorrow, so I will try it out on one wheelset, and see what difference it makes.
Pete.
Thank you so much for the fantastic revelation of it's mainstream use in the US, and the increasing adoption "over here" too.
I need a couple of wagon loads of ballast delivering to the "loop" worksite tomorrow, so I will try it out on one wheelset, and see what difference it makes.
Pete.
When working at the Disused Tay bridge station some years back on the IP gas supply, I nipped up the stairs to the old platform. There was an automatic flange greasing device fitted on the start of the fairly sharp curve onto the bridge which appeared to have been badly adjusted judging by the amount of grease everywhere. Must have be fun for the drivers given the incline and sharp curve onto the Bridge.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Oh-er Tony, that rather sounds like the voice of experience to me?!
Ahem, well I won't tell anyone, if you don't!
Pete.
Ahem, well I won't tell anyone, if you don't!
Pete.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
This morning I laid the "portable" track, and collected two wagon loads of ballast to finally level off and finish the last panel of the curve. I then took the opportunity to clear the worksite of another six rubble sacks full of topsoil, by transporting them in the opposite direction.
I had said yesterday that I would apply some graphite to the wheels of one wagon to test the difference (if any) in performance. Unfortunately, I could not find my old faithful, big, thick graphite stick anywhere! I just had to put up with the awful, familiar grinding and binding until the job was done!
I was still collapsed in my armchair and having a break from all my exertions in the heat of the sun, when Glenn turned up. As we discussed the dragging wagon issues, he said his wife (also an artist) had got some pencil shaped graphite sticks. A quick call home, and a tin was offered for the experiment, so I suggested that if he brought the children round after school, we could carry out a proper trial!
In retrospect, it was a Friday afternoon, and the little ones were just a bit too "hyped" to be anything other than a handful. Glenn seemed to be perfectly happy with being left in sole charge of the locomotive - while mayhem was carrying on everywhere else in the garden!
The eased curve, it has to be said, is an improvement over the previous alignment, but the loco still slowed to a crawl - even running light engine on full regulator - when hauling an adult on the tender though! Sadly, the tendency of the engine to climb the rail when pushing stock in reverse was still happening.
Then the graphite was applied, first to the treads and flanges of the tender... to be followed later by one of the wagons...
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Away they went! What a jaw dropping transformation!
I didn't get to have a go myself... but then I might have had some difficulty catching up with them?!
Having to stand and carefully observe the behaviour of the stock, I noticed that even though the friction on all wheels had been so drastically reduced, the engine was still nonetheless trying to "kick-out" on the rear drivers when pushing.
After a while, it became apparent that the leading driving wheel springs are simply far too "soft"! I am fairly confident that exchanging them with something a bit stiffer will do the trick.
I do still want to attend to those awkwardly profiled flanges, although the degree of urgency has subsided somewhat. The contact between the flange and inner face of the rail head, however slight that may be, remains an obvious issue, but clearly this experiment has conclusively revealed that the major factor is indeed the extreme angles at the fulcrum points on the longer wheelbase vehicles. I do wonder if this particular problem might be exacerbated by the use of nylon wheels, where a degree of flexibility in the material creates a significantly larger "footprint" than any steel tyred equivalent?
The next bit of fun will be trying to work out an efficient method for "topping up" those treads. I certainly won't want to be upending the wagons and doing a load of "scribbling" on a remotely regular basis, that's for sure!
Pete.
I had said yesterday that I would apply some graphite to the wheels of one wagon to test the difference (if any) in performance. Unfortunately, I could not find my old faithful, big, thick graphite stick anywhere! I just had to put up with the awful, familiar grinding and binding until the job was done!
I was still collapsed in my armchair and having a break from all my exertions in the heat of the sun, when Glenn turned up. As we discussed the dragging wagon issues, he said his wife (also an artist) had got some pencil shaped graphite sticks. A quick call home, and a tin was offered for the experiment, so I suggested that if he brought the children round after school, we could carry out a proper trial!
In retrospect, it was a Friday afternoon, and the little ones were just a bit too "hyped" to be anything other than a handful. Glenn seemed to be perfectly happy with being left in sole charge of the locomotive - while mayhem was carrying on everywhere else in the garden!
The eased curve, it has to be said, is an improvement over the previous alignment, but the loco still slowed to a crawl - even running light engine on full regulator - when hauling an adult on the tender though! Sadly, the tendency of the engine to climb the rail when pushing stock in reverse was still happening.
Then the graphite was applied, first to the treads and flanges of the tender... to be followed later by one of the wagons...
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Away they went! What a jaw dropping transformation!
I didn't get to have a go myself... but then I might have had some difficulty catching up with them?!
Having to stand and carefully observe the behaviour of the stock, I noticed that even though the friction on all wheels had been so drastically reduced, the engine was still nonetheless trying to "kick-out" on the rear drivers when pushing.
After a while, it became apparent that the leading driving wheel springs are simply far too "soft"! I am fairly confident that exchanging them with something a bit stiffer will do the trick.
I do still want to attend to those awkwardly profiled flanges, although the degree of urgency has subsided somewhat. The contact between the flange and inner face of the rail head, however slight that may be, remains an obvious issue, but clearly this experiment has conclusively revealed that the major factor is indeed the extreme angles at the fulcrum points on the longer wheelbase vehicles. I do wonder if this particular problem might be exacerbated by the use of nylon wheels, where a degree of flexibility in the material creates a significantly larger "footprint" than any steel tyred equivalent?
The next bit of fun will be trying to work out an efficient method for "topping up" those treads. I certainly won't want to be upending the wagons and doing a load of "scribbling" on a remotely regular basis, that's for sure!
Pete.
Osgood
Western Thunderer
Yes it Is possible, but without doubt it is not anywhere near as significant a factor as the lack of tapered flanges.
Given you would be putting a taper on the tyres of any replacement steel wheels you’ll probably never know.
I still believe your choice of nylon wheel was a very sound one.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
In the words of a South African fitter I knew 'dis graphite good shit bubba!'
Pushing the boundaries of having two good ideas in a week.....you don't need to lube every wheel you only need to do one on each vehicle or better yet.....lube the point of friction. But if you must do the wheels then it only needs to be the outer one, you could copy the 1:1 railways and make up a tube and spring loaded stick affair to push a stick onto one wheel, but I think that's over kill, I'd be more inclined to try the suggestion below before engineering remedial's like this.
In your case the point of friction is the inside top corner of the outer rail, given the condition of your knees I'd be inclined to find an old broom handle, drill a hole in the bottom corresponding to the graphite stick diameter and then jam a bit in, maybe three or four to give a good contact point.
Simply push the stick along the top corner to lube the rail, sit back with cup of tea and smug look.
Over time you'll have plenty on there it'll not need topping up that often, tapering the flanges is the next most important action you need to undertake.
Pushing the boundaries of having two good ideas in a week.....you don't need to lube every wheel you only need to do one on each vehicle or better yet.....lube the point of friction. But if you must do the wheels then it only needs to be the outer one, you could copy the 1:1 railways and make up a tube and spring loaded stick affair to push a stick onto one wheel, but I think that's over kill, I'd be more inclined to try the suggestion below before engineering remedial's like this.
In your case the point of friction is the inside top corner of the outer rail, given the condition of your knees I'd be inclined to find an old broom handle, drill a hole in the bottom corresponding to the graphite stick diameter and then jam a bit in, maybe three or four to give a good contact point.
Simply push the stick along the top corner to lube the rail, sit back with cup of tea and smug look.
Over time you'll have plenty on there it'll not need topping up that often, tapering the flanges is the next most important action you need to undertake.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Well, that's a tad inconsiderate....
