Clarence3815
Western Thunderer
Hello Mickoo,
I replied to the e-mail. Did you receive it please? Bernard
I replied to the e-mail. Did you receive it please? Bernard
Breaking Ground - Finescale - of a sort
- Thread starter Richard Insole
- Start date
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- Tags
- peter insole
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Yes I did, it might pay to drop me a PM if you think I've missed something as I don't read all the threads on Western Thunder, except my own.
Therefore it's easy to miss stuff, plus it doesn't clutter up other peoples threads.
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
Flomasta Silicone Spray 200ml - Screwfix
Order online at Screwfix.com. Clear non-staining silicone-based lubricant. Ideal for use in easing the installation of all types of plastic joints and threads, inserting rubber gaskets and O-rings. Safe to use on a wide range of plumbing, industrial and domestic applications. FREE next day...
simond
Western Thunderer
SILICONE ALERT!!!!
wonderful stuff. Just don’t entertain hopes of painting or sticking anything to a surface treated with it. It seems to spread out in a rather invasive fashion, and prevents proper wetting, and thus adhesion. I believe it tends to one molecule thickness, but this may be apocryphal nonsense, and thus contaminates the entire world, a bit like King Midas…
it’s certainly not welcome in car factories. It seems particularly difficult to wash off.
of course, if it sticks so well to the surface it’s sprayed on, one would wonder why it doesn’t stick to whatever you’re trying to stick to it, but that’s a “how do they stick the non-stick to the frying pan” question.
wonderful stuff. Just don’t entertain hopes of painting or sticking anything to a surface treated with it. It seems to spread out in a rather invasive fashion, and prevents proper wetting, and thus adhesion. I believe it tends to one molecule thickness, but this may be apocryphal nonsense, and thus contaminates the entire world, a bit like King Midas…
it’s certainly not welcome in car factories. It seems particularly difficult to wash off.
of course, if it sticks so well to the surface it’s sprayed on, one would wonder why it doesn’t stick to whatever you’re trying to stick to it, but that’s a “how do they stick the non-stick to the frying pan” question.
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
Must admit I've never been keen on the stuff, when looking for a second hand car many years ago it used to put me off buying anything that the dealer had sprayed the dash board and interior plastic with the bloody stuff.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Oops! I've gone and done it again: Made some comments, briefly left the room, and come back in to find that I have created a bit of a storm!
Please forgive me if I had given the wrong impression, I will still be tapering those flanges... and am quite convinced that will help with the problem!
Everyone is of course, quite correct! I do fear however that some of the accepted principles of wheel/rail dynamics have gone out of the window on our railway, quite simply because I am pushing at the boundaries - literally as well as metaphorically!
The point about moving anything on wheels is that it is not quite the perfect science we might be forgiven for assuming it is - Everything works well enough until the moment we try to deviate from a dead straight line! Thereafter, all sorts of issues with linear geometry will arise, and require varying degrees of compromise. After all, if it was simply a case of precisely profiled wheels, then would such things as flange lubrication, radial or self steering axles, etc, really be necessary?!
Having said all that, I am reminded of the documented case of Ilford Corporation and it's tramways. When first built, the system was in isolation, and with an apparent lack of foresight, a unique wheel and flange profile was adopted. It was not long however before the neighbouring, and co-operative East Ham, West Ham and LCC authorities extended their operations to make end-on connections. To the dismay of all parties, it was quickly discovered that any commercial benefits of through running were quite impossible to achieve. In that event, it was more a matter of adhesion - loss of traction and the effective operation of the essential magnetic track brakes, although there were frequent incidents of de-railing at certain locations to contend with as well!
I do rather imagine that on so many industrial - and perhaps especially narrow gauge railways, with a high level of demand on the infrastructure, and a sometimes woeful lack of maintenance, various problems, some similar to my own, were probably just accepted with a shrug - as a plain fact of life?!
Anyway, the point I made about the level of drag caused by the "skidding" effect was at first conjectural, but was confirmed by the result of careful observation - and repeated testing. Flange contact does have an effect, but it is marginal in comparison. Ironically, the loco wheel flanges are inclined, and it is those that "climb" and cause derailment - though only when pushing under load! Hard and fast against the rail when leading shows no such propensity! Lubrication is therefore a bodge that should not normally be considered - but from the chore point of view, unfortunately turns out to be significantly beneficial for us - so I may have to accept that as a permanent remedy!
By the way Mickoo, I am particularly taken by your earlier suggestions, and that of using a converted broom stick! I like anything that avoids hard work, love tea, and can do smug rather too well it seems!
Pete.
PS., Please accept a "like", "love" or "ha ha" here for every reply since I raised the issue, as otherwise it would clog up the "latest activity" page!
Please forgive me if I had given the wrong impression, I will still be tapering those flanges... and am quite convinced that will help with the problem!
Everyone is of course, quite correct! I do fear however that some of the accepted principles of wheel/rail dynamics have gone out of the window on our railway, quite simply because I am pushing at the boundaries - literally as well as metaphorically!
The point about moving anything on wheels is that it is not quite the perfect science we might be forgiven for assuming it is - Everything works well enough until the moment we try to deviate from a dead straight line! Thereafter, all sorts of issues with linear geometry will arise, and require varying degrees of compromise. After all, if it was simply a case of precisely profiled wheels, then would such things as flange lubrication, radial or self steering axles, etc, really be necessary?!
Having said all that, I am reminded of the documented case of Ilford Corporation and it's tramways. When first built, the system was in isolation, and with an apparent lack of foresight, a unique wheel and flange profile was adopted. It was not long however before the neighbouring, and co-operative East Ham, West Ham and LCC authorities extended their operations to make end-on connections. To the dismay of all parties, it was quickly discovered that any commercial benefits of through running were quite impossible to achieve. In that event, it was more a matter of adhesion - loss of traction and the effective operation of the essential magnetic track brakes, although there were frequent incidents of de-railing at certain locations to contend with as well!
I do rather imagine that on so many industrial - and perhaps especially narrow gauge railways, with a high level of demand on the infrastructure, and a sometimes woeful lack of maintenance, various problems, some similar to my own, were probably just accepted with a shrug - as a plain fact of life?!
Anyway, the point I made about the level of drag caused by the "skidding" effect was at first conjectural, but was confirmed by the result of careful observation - and repeated testing. Flange contact does have an effect, but it is marginal in comparison. Ironically, the loco wheel flanges are inclined, and it is those that "climb" and cause derailment - though only when pushing under load! Hard and fast against the rail when leading shows no such propensity! Lubrication is therefore a bodge that should not normally be considered - but from the chore point of view, unfortunately turns out to be significantly beneficial for us - so I may have to accept that as a permanent remedy!
By the way Mickoo, I am particularly taken by your earlier suggestions, and that of using a converted broom stick! I like anything that avoids hard work, love tea, and can do smug rather too well it seems!
Pete.
PS., Please accept a "like", "love" or "ha ha" here for every reply since I raised the issue, as otherwise it would clog up the "latest activity" page!
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Just thinking of your knees and back
I'm not there yet but the effects of two decades climbing cranes is beginning to take it's toll, mind being generally unfit isn't helping either
Allen M
Western Thunderer
Very true
In the early 1960s I worked at Round Oak Steel works, (now the 'home' of Merry Hill shopping centre). Track level and curves where a bit like Hornby set track on the carpet.
The locos carried re-rail ramps and jacks all the time to bounce the wagons back onto the track.
For more in fo look up Earl of Dudley's rail and Pensnett Railway.
Regards
Allen
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Getting off the curves and back on the straight and narrow continues to be the goal - although it is proving to be an epic, uphill task!
Digging ever deeper into the cutting with the equivalent of a teaspoon has been tiresome, but ultimately successful...
I seem to have spent an awful lot of time scraping out soil and then sawing through a mass of hefty roots of a "Field Maple" that is growing wild on the wasteland next door, and have been vigorously pushing their way under the fence!
Little Mr. T., is still convinced that I am digging down into a tunnel! I haven't the heart to tell him that on the gradient commenced, and after laying another two, straight 1.25M lengths, the line should almost have climbed back to ground level again.
What an old meanie T's grandad is?!
Well no. I have a cunning plan...!
Pete.
Digging ever deeper into the cutting with the equivalent of a teaspoon has been tiresome, but ultimately successful...
I seem to have spent an awful lot of time scraping out soil and then sawing through a mass of hefty roots of a "Field Maple" that is growing wild on the wasteland next door, and have been vigorously pushing their way under the fence!
Little Mr. T., is still convinced that I am digging down into a tunnel! I haven't the heart to tell him that on the gradient commenced, and after laying another two, straight 1.25M lengths, the line should almost have climbed back to ground level again.
What an old meanie T's grandad is?!
Well no. I have a cunning plan...!
Pete.
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
With the tight radii I like to think of it as your version of the Kennington or Charing Cross Loops albeit neither underground nor under the river!
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Yesterday I managed (still not quite sure how in the heatwave) to get the huge and mountainous molehill of topsoil bagged up and ready for transportation. The ground is now clear for cutting the next section, but when I stepped outside fairly early this morning I thought: "Nope... absolutely no way am I doing anything out here today!"
Thoughts instead turned to some vital workshop activities. Down in the "dungeon" it may be dark and decidedly dank... but it is wonderfully cool in this weather!
First priority was to look again at making some sort of arbor for turning down the wheel flanges. Mr. O., offered to give me a lift to a local engineering supplies firm. They came up trumps with a large bolt and some very thick washers that just so happened to fit perfectly into the wheel recesses - thus firmly gripping the bearing outer ring, and at the same time self-centering!
I was also able to acquire a nice new file. The beastie is very sharp, and even better; specifically designed for aluminium. I was assured by the assistant that it should work well on the nylon.
Even if it doesn't, I still have two more points to construct, so the tool should prove to be a sound investment!
Unfortunately, the big bolt - and one of the washers was wasted though: It didn't take too long to discover that it was just a fraction over size for my chuck! I couldn't even "turn" it down to size - because it, well, err, wouldn't fit in the chuck!
"Oh, bother!" I just stood for a while, staring blankly at all the clutter on the bench and thinking; "what the hell do I do now?"
"What I need is something the same size as the washers, but with a smaller bore hole in the centre"...
All of a sudden, the lights came back on:
"Hang on a minute... what about this little fella?,,,"
One of my pipe bender mandrels!
You'll never guess what?
A one hundred percent, seemingly made-for-the-job, fit! The wheel is held extremely securely, and absolutely perfectly centred too.
The damned answer had been sitting there all along!
The file works a treat as well, almost overly so, requiring great care in handling...
I am gradually working from the outside, rounding and reducing the external diameter, and starting on the angle towards the root.
That last part is jolly critical - and therefore a bit daunting, but I am nonetheless really looking forward to the morrow now!
Pete.
Thoughts instead turned to some vital workshop activities. Down in the "dungeon" it may be dark and decidedly dank... but it is wonderfully cool in this weather!
First priority was to look again at making some sort of arbor for turning down the wheel flanges. Mr. O., offered to give me a lift to a local engineering supplies firm. They came up trumps with a large bolt and some very thick washers that just so happened to fit perfectly into the wheel recesses - thus firmly gripping the bearing outer ring, and at the same time self-centering!
I was also able to acquire a nice new file. The beastie is very sharp, and even better; specifically designed for aluminium. I was assured by the assistant that it should work well on the nylon.
Even if it doesn't, I still have two more points to construct, so the tool should prove to be a sound investment!
Unfortunately, the big bolt - and one of the washers was wasted though: It didn't take too long to discover that it was just a fraction over size for my chuck! I couldn't even "turn" it down to size - because it, well, err, wouldn't fit in the chuck!
"Oh, bother!" I just stood for a while, staring blankly at all the clutter on the bench and thinking; "what the hell do I do now?"
"What I need is something the same size as the washers, but with a smaller bore hole in the centre"...
All of a sudden, the lights came back on:
"Hang on a minute... what about this little fella?,,,"
One of my pipe bender mandrels!
You'll never guess what?
A one hundred percent, seemingly made-for-the-job, fit! The wheel is held extremely securely, and absolutely perfectly centred too.
The damned answer had been sitting there all along!
The file works a treat as well, almost overly so, requiring great care in handling...
I am gradually working from the outside, rounding and reducing the external diameter, and starting on the angle towards the root.
That last part is jolly critical - and therefore a bit daunting, but I am nonetheless really looking forward to the morrow now!
Pete.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
I am severely restricted in the times that I can use machinery, owing to my next-door neighbour being on night-shift, so I have had to wait before continuing with the wheel flanges. Thankfully, the day dawned just a tad milder, allowing me to get on with another urgently outstanding task.
With so much attention being focussed on the extension earthworks, I have rather neglected the station building. My decision to leave the scaffolding in place until the valancing was fitted at the front was becoming a serious headache - quite literally! The number of times innocent family members, visitors, and even myself had come into hard contact when stooping under the bars was rather worrying!
This morning seemed a good time for remedial action:
I had already painted the front daggerboards with some proper, old fashioned, oil based primer, making sure that all surfaces and end grain were well covered, including inside the grooves, to give the best weather protection possible.
Invisible nailing onto a batten was a bit tricky, bearing in mind the rather delicate nature of such slender, and open grained pine. I had to drive the nails at an angle into the chamfer to ensure there was enough meat to avoid splitting. The heads were then knocked further down with a punch. A bit of filler, and some thick coats of topcoat should finally hide them?!
The whole fascia was then offered up and tacked in place to check alignment...
before fixing firmly in place!
It is not just nice to look up and see the familiar shapes of a proper, traditional platform canopy - it is great now to be able to pass, and repass thereover, unhindered, all along the shared right of way!
Hurray!
Pete.
With so much attention being focussed on the extension earthworks, I have rather neglected the station building. My decision to leave the scaffolding in place until the valancing was fitted at the front was becoming a serious headache - quite literally! The number of times innocent family members, visitors, and even myself had come into hard contact when stooping under the bars was rather worrying!
This morning seemed a good time for remedial action:
I had already painted the front daggerboards with some proper, old fashioned, oil based primer, making sure that all surfaces and end grain were well covered, including inside the grooves, to give the best weather protection possible.
Invisible nailing onto a batten was a bit tricky, bearing in mind the rather delicate nature of such slender, and open grained pine. I had to drive the nails at an angle into the chamfer to ensure there was enough meat to avoid splitting. The heads were then knocked further down with a punch. A bit of filler, and some thick coats of topcoat should finally hide them?!
The whole fascia was then offered up and tacked in place to check alignment...
before fixing firmly in place!
It is not just nice to look up and see the familiar shapes of a proper, traditional platform canopy - it is great now to be able to pass, and repass thereover, unhindered, all along the shared right of way!
Hurray!
Pete.
Brian McKenzie
Western Thunderer
I just noticed the post for the departure signal. . .
-Brian M.
-Brian M.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
I should never say what I intend to do tomorrow, because some distraction or other is bound to happen! I did manage to grab a few moments on the workbench spinning those wheel flanges though!
Ah, what fun learning curves can be?!
I came back to finish off the first wheel - and boy, that was hard work. During the process I tried applying the file in various ways, and running the drill at different speeds. Once I was reasonably happy with the resulting flange profile I set to with the second. Starting over on a fresh wheel, and using the experience gained, that one cut like a dream - and it only took a few minutes to complete!
I re-applied blacking to the flanges to generate witness marks, and then put the wheel set back on for an initial running test.
The results were very interesting...
.
I have taken a fair amount off the overall flange diameter - which should provide two benefits: There is a bit more "meat" left on the flange once the taper is cut, and secondly, there is notably less unwanted contact with stones etc., which to date has been prevalent as a result of using our low profile rail.
After the test I was assured to see that while there is still some contact between the flange and inner face of the rail head, (which I fully expected with flat tread, free-running wheels) the area of friction is nonetheless quite small - and better still - far enough away from the outer edge!
There is a tiny section of the original profile, just at the root radius, where it is quite clear that there is no contact.
I am afraid to attempt enlarging the root radii, as that is not only a bit beyond my capabilities at this stage, it would also reduce again the amount of "meat-on the-bone" left to work with! There do not appear to be any issues arising from this so far, so I'm quite content to leave it well alone!
One other point that was graphically illustrated was a previously unnoticed anomaly...
Oo-err!
The peculiar pattern was on the first wheel worked - where I was selecting different drill speeds. This was the one tried at the higher end. It appears to reveal a case of tool "chattering"?
Certainly, on the second go, at the preferred, and incidentally lowest rotational rate available, the flange happily turned out nice and even, as well as (reasonably) smooth!
Pete.
Ah, what fun learning curves can be?!
I came back to finish off the first wheel - and boy, that was hard work. During the process I tried applying the file in various ways, and running the drill at different speeds. Once I was reasonably happy with the resulting flange profile I set to with the second. Starting over on a fresh wheel, and using the experience gained, that one cut like a dream - and it only took a few minutes to complete!
I re-applied blacking to the flanges to generate witness marks, and then put the wheel set back on for an initial running test.
The results were very interesting...
.
I have taken a fair amount off the overall flange diameter - which should provide two benefits: There is a bit more "meat" left on the flange once the taper is cut, and secondly, there is notably less unwanted contact with stones etc., which to date has been prevalent as a result of using our low profile rail.
After the test I was assured to see that while there is still some contact between the flange and inner face of the rail head, (which I fully expected with flat tread, free-running wheels) the area of friction is nonetheless quite small - and better still - far enough away from the outer edge!
There is a tiny section of the original profile, just at the root radius, where it is quite clear that there is no contact.
I am afraid to attempt enlarging the root radii, as that is not only a bit beyond my capabilities at this stage, it would also reduce again the amount of "meat-on the-bone" left to work with! There do not appear to be any issues arising from this so far, so I'm quite content to leave it well alone!
One other point that was graphically illustrated was a previously unnoticed anomaly...
Oo-err!
The peculiar pattern was on the first wheel worked - where I was selecting different drill speeds. This was the one tried at the higher end. It appears to reveal a case of tool "chattering"?
Certainly, on the second go, at the preferred, and incidentally lowest rotational rate available, the flange happily turned out nice and even, as well as (reasonably) smooth!
Pete.
Osgood
Western Thunderer
Were you happy with the wagon’s performance with the new flange profile?
I would have thought you could safely take a fair bit more off and have a more pronounced angle on the face of the flange in contact with the side of the rail if further improvement in getting round the bend is desired, which would all but eliminate contact of the outer part of the flange with the rail.
And no need for any radius between flange and flat face of tyre (easy for me to say).
I would have thought you could safely take a fair bit more off and have a more pronounced angle on the face of the flange in contact with the side of the rail if further improvement in getting round the bend is desired, which would all but eliminate contact of the outer part of the flange with the rail.
And no need for any radius between flange and flat face of tyre (easy for me to say
).
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
A bastard file, If you've ever wondered how they got their name see here.... How did bastard files get their name? - Wonkee Donkee Tools
Col.
Peter Insole
Western Thunderer
Yes, happy so far thank you Tony! I will only know for sure when the other set is completed though! I missed my "noise permit" window this afternoon - while quietly busy getting paint on myself, as well as some of the daggerboards!
I was perhaps a bit cautious with the flange angle, being concerned not to take too much material off in one go - at least before testing it. The witness marks clearly confirm that the profile is almost there - and after skimming a bit more off to sort out the dodgy, dimpled one, plus a tad on the second to match, I hope to be pretty much there.
A full scale trial under maximum load - including the critical "push" test should reveal any adjustments that might be needed. If successful, a template can then be made, and the new profile copied for the remaining, and/or subsequent wheels.
Pete.
I was perhaps a bit cautious with the flange angle, being concerned not to take too much material off in one go - at least before testing it. The witness marks clearly confirm that the profile is almost there - and after skimming a bit more off to sort out the dodgy, dimpled one, plus a tad on the second to match, I hope to be pretty much there.
A full scale trial under maximum load - including the critical "push" test should reveal any adjustments that might be needed. If successful, a template can then be made, and the new profile copied for the remaining, and/or subsequent wheels.
Pete.
simond
Western Thunderer
Were you happy with the wagon’s performance with the new flange profile?
I would have thought you could safely take a fair bit more off and have a more pronounced angle on the face of the flange in contact with the side of the rail if further improvement in getting round the bend is desired, which would all but eliminate contact of the outer part of the flange with the rail.
And no need for any radius between flange and flat face of tyre (easy for me to say
Oooh, not in agreement here! I do agree that Pete needs a flange that won’t touch the railhead at minimum track radius, but I think a generous radius between flange and tread is crucial!
