richard carr
Western Thunderer
Brian
Thats a great job onthat photo but it must have taken hours.
Richard
Thats a great job onthat photo but it must have taken hours.
Richard
Prototype Can anyone identify Where & When?
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
AndyB
Western Thunderer
I hope Brian doesn't mind me adding a photo from a different source to his thread.
This picture has so far beaten the Midland Railway Society mail group - so I wondered if the super sleuths on here might be able to suggest a location, etc.
A larger version is available in dropbox - Dropbox - 1.jpg
The loco appears to have a Stanier tender.
Very distinctive raised ventilators and cantrail lining on the carriage occupied by the photographer.
It has been suggested that it may be an enthusiasts special - from the carriage sticker, lineside activity and people leaning out of windows.
Any ideas?
Andy
This picture has so far beaten the Midland Railway Society mail group - so I wondered if the super sleuths on here might be able to suggest a location, etc.
A larger version is available in dropbox - Dropbox - 1.jpg
The loco appears to have a Stanier tender.
Very distinctive raised ventilators and cantrail lining on the carriage occupied by the photographer.
It has been suggested that it may be an enthusiasts special - from the carriage sticker, lineside activity and people leaning out of windows.
Any ideas?
Andy
Overseer
Western Thunderer
Where are the Northern Irish members of WT? Looks like it might be a LMS NCC W class 2-6-0 with NCC carriages. Only some of the moguls had high sided tenders. The middle carriage looks like it might be one of the North Atlantic Express set. Probably a 1960s enthusiast special. Not sure about location without any books to hand.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Not minding at all, Andy.
An interesting suggestion, Fraser, and certainly not one I'd have considered.
Brian
An interesting suggestion, Fraser, and certainly not one I'd have considered.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
After a long break due to other priorities, and another photo covered in dust which took an age to Photoshop, here it is below.
It's very clearly 68459, a J83, last shed Thornton Junction, 62A and the loco is carrying a 62A shed plate in this photo. Any clues here whether this is at Thornton Junction, or could it be at one of the other sheds in this collection - perhaps Kittybrewster again?
At the moment location, date and photographer unknown, but from my collection.
Brian
It's very clearly 68459, a J83, last shed Thornton Junction, 62A and the loco is carrying a 62A shed plate in this photo. Any clues here whether this is at Thornton Junction, or could it be at one of the other sheds in this collection - perhaps Kittybrewster again?
At the moment location, date and photographer unknown, but from my collection.
Brian
Osgood
Western Thunderer
The only pictures I can find of cranes at Thornton (2 pics) and Kittybrewster (1 pic) show the jib tops only, sticking up behind locomotives.
However - the Kittybrewster image shows two lattice jibs, whereas the two images found of Thornton Junction show a jib which appears to be a dead ringer for that in your photo Brian.
However - the Kittybrewster image shows two lattice jibs, whereas the two images found of Thornton Junction show a jib which appears to be a dead ringer for that in your photo Brian.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
It's Thornton, the shed ventilators are a perfect match.
Hi-Res R0204 by Bill Wright, on Flickr
Your photo would be over to the far left by the engines in the distant background.
In fact, just to the left of this shot.
90117 by Peter, on Flickr
MD
Hi-Res R0204 by Bill Wright, on FlickrYour photo would be over to the far left by the engines in the distant background.
In fact, just to the left of this shot.
90117 by Peter, on FlickrMD
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks all. I'm convinced by Thornton Jnctn. In fact I considered this the most likely location but in the absence of any details one must keep all the options open.
Another result!
Brian
Another result!
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Here's another. It's one of a series of three all apparently taken at the same time and at the same location. All three are super photos and appear to require very little in post processing which is why this one appears so quickly. Certainly there was very little dust on this neg and just a few light scratches.
This is clearly two J72s in what appears to be a NER roundhouse. 68744 has a 52A, Gateshead, shedplate, although records show it's last shed was Darlington. There is disagreement about the withdrawal date; one record states that it was withdrawn in April 1962 and scrapped in October 1961 which is unlikely as it's before the date of withdrawal. However, another record states that withdrawal was in September 1961 with scrapping in October 1961 which seems a more likely combination of dates. 69022 carries a 51C, West Hartlepool, shed plate. Apparently it's last allocation was also Darlington from where it was withdrawn in December 1962. It was scrapped in February 1963.
Both locos were disposed of at Darlington (North Road) Works.
I have no knowledge of Darlington Shed but I suspect that this photo is of the locos at that location, possibly at some time around the second half of 1961 but any confirmation or challenge about either assumption will be much appreciated.
Photo from my collection.
Brian
This is clearly two J72s in what appears to be a NER roundhouse. 68744 has a 52A, Gateshead, shedplate, although records show it's last shed was Darlington. There is disagreement about the withdrawal date; one record states that it was withdrawn in April 1962 and scrapped in October 1961 which is unlikely as it's before the date of withdrawal. However, another record states that withdrawal was in September 1961 with scrapping in October 1961 which seems a more likely combination of dates. 69022 carries a 51C, West Hartlepool, shed plate. Apparently it's last allocation was also Darlington from where it was withdrawn in December 1962. It was scrapped in February 1963.
Both locos were disposed of at Darlington (North Road) Works.
I have no knowledge of Darlington Shed but I suspect that this photo is of the locos at that location, possibly at some time around the second half of 1961 but any confirmation or challenge about either assumption will be much appreciated.
Photo from my collection.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Here's another which I've assumed is at the same location as the one above. I also assumed it was the same date, but this raises a question about the withdrawal dates of the locos in the pictures. Of course it's always possible that these are not the same date and that the photographer made two or more visits to the same location.
Unfortunately J72 69002 does not have a shed plate in this photo. However, we know from two sources that it was transferred to Darlington 3 March 1962. It was withdrawn in October 1962 and scrapped June 1963 at Darlington Works (North Road).
I'm ignorant regarding any details of the diesel, so help will be appreciated - what class is this and what is it's number series? As I understand it wasp stripes were not introduced until 1962. That all fits quite nicely with the dates around 69002, but in the previous photo 68744 is present and was scrapped in October 1961.
Photo again from my collection.
I have one other photo which is the same location as 68744, 69022 and 69004 are present (68744 and 69022 are in the first photo of this sequence). There's a fourth J72 in the shot which may be 69007, but no evidence of a diesel which suggests that these photos could have been taken on different dates. It's in Photoshop at the moment and I'll put it up for inspection as soon as I've cleaned it up.
Brian
Unfortunately J72 69002 does not have a shed plate in this photo. However, we know from two sources that it was transferred to Darlington 3 March 1962. It was withdrawn in October 1962 and scrapped June 1963 at Darlington Works (North Road).
I'm ignorant regarding any details of the diesel, so help will be appreciated - what class is this and what is it's number series? As I understand it wasp stripes were not introduced until 1962. That all fits quite nicely with the dates around 69002, but in the previous photo 68744 is present and was scrapped in October 1961.
Photo again from my collection.
I have one other photo which is the same location as 68744, 69022 and 69004 are present (68744 and 69022 are in the first photo of this sequence). There's a fourth J72 in the shot which may be 69007, but no evidence of a diesel which suggests that these photos could have been taken on different dates. It's in Photoshop at the moment and I'll put it up for inspection as soon as I've cleaned it up.
Brian
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Darlington Bank Top.
Durham County Council - Durham Record
Wasp stripes in 61
Class 03 | D2095 1961-10-21 Sowerby Bridge
Class 03 | D2099 1961-09-03 Thornaby
Durham County Council - Durham Record
Wasp stripes in 61
Class 03 | D2095 1961-10-21 Sowerby Bridge
Class 03 | D2099 1961-09-03 Thornaby
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks again, Mick. I looked up Darlington Shed but could not find anything which confirmed it. This does!!
It looks as though these could all be on the same date, then, particularly as my dating of the wasp stripes is a bit late. In fact one of my pics shows 69021 and one shows 69??7 which could well therefore be 69017. Looks as though the date is around that of the photo you attached.
What was the number series of the 03s?
Best regards and great research on my behalf again.
Thanks!
Brian
It looks as though these could all be on the same date, then, particularly as my dating of the wasp stripes is a bit late. In fact one of my pics shows 69021 and one shows 69??7 which could well therefore be 69017. Looks as though the date is around that of the photo you attached.
What was the number series of the 03s?
Best regards and great research on my behalf again.
Thanks!
Brian
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mickoo
Western Thunderer
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks again, Mick.
B
B
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Here's another to add to the Darlington MPD photos. This is one of two photos from very similar viewpoints - the second of these negs is in Photoshop now.
From right to left 69004, 68744 and 69022. I can't positively identify the left-most loco but it's either 69007 (transferred to Darlington January 1961 and withdrawn from there in October 1962 or at Thornton Junction until withdrawn, depending on which reference ones believes) or 69017 (to Darlington July 1959 and withdrawn in April 1962 or at Thornton Junction until withdrawn). Apparently both locos were cut up at Darlington Works. The only other possibility is 69027 but references agree that this was at Gateshead until withdrawn in October 1962, although even this loco travelled to Darlington Works for destruction, so it's an outside possibility.
We know from Mickoo's advice above that wasp stripes were introduced in 1961.
With the known transfer dates of various J72s to Darlington 68744 remains an enigma, as it was withdrawn and scrapped before some of these locos were transferred. In this respect latest data on 69022 in my first picture in this series advises that the loco was withdrawn , on 31 December 1962, from West Hartlepool where it arrived in 1961, not Darlington. In fact it should be impossible for 69022 and 68744 to be seen together. It therefore seems likely that all these J72s were stored at Darlington Shed pending scrapping. We know that at least two J72s went in to service stock at Darlington, so it's not beyond possibility that these locos on shed were used indiscriminately as works shunters until their call came. This still fails to explain how 68744 came to be scrapped before some of the locos in these photos arrived.
Brian
From right to left 69004, 68744 and 69022. I can't positively identify the left-most loco but it's either 69007 (transferred to Darlington January 1961 and withdrawn from there in October 1962 or at Thornton Junction until withdrawn, depending on which reference ones believes) or 69017 (to Darlington July 1959 and withdrawn in April 1962 or at Thornton Junction until withdrawn). Apparently both locos were cut up at Darlington Works. The only other possibility is 69027 but references agree that this was at Gateshead until withdrawn in October 1962, although even this loco travelled to Darlington Works for destruction, so it's an outside possibility.
We know from Mickoo's advice above that wasp stripes were introduced in 1961.
With the known transfer dates of various J72s to Darlington 68744 remains an enigma, as it was withdrawn and scrapped before some of these locos were transferred. In this respect latest data on 69022 in my first picture in this series advises that the loco was withdrawn , on 31 December 1962, from West Hartlepool where it arrived in 1961, not Darlington. In fact it should be impossible for 69022 and 68744 to be seen together. It therefore seems likely that all these J72s were stored at Darlington Shed pending scrapping. We know that at least two J72s went in to service stock at Darlington, so it's not beyond possibility that these locos on shed were used indiscriminately as works shunters until their call came. This still fails to explain how 68744 came to be scrapped before some of the locos in these photos arrived.
Brian
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mickoo
Western Thunderer
Brian,
Beware withdrawn and scrapped dates, purported to be cast in stone, there are many that are incorrect, some by a year or more. Withdrawn and scrapped does not mean cut up and does not mean the engine was removed to the scrap line immediately, often they were just left where they were stopped, especially if the space was not required. In addition, transfer dates do not necessarily mean the loco actually moved or had it's shed plate changed, at this time it was known that steam was on it's way out, especially the older classes, so I suspect many transfers or withdrawals were paper exercises and not changing shed plates simply labour saving measures.
As you note, I suspect Darlington was a central point where this class were pooled.
This small roundhouse would make a very nice model, I may tap you up for some desk top sized images in future
The W1 of course won't fit in there, but for some future projects it'll be ideal.
MD
Beware withdrawn and scrapped dates, purported to be cast in stone, there are many that are incorrect, some by a year or more. Withdrawn and scrapped does not mean cut up and does not mean the engine was removed to the scrap line immediately, often they were just left where they were stopped, especially if the space was not required. In addition, transfer dates do not necessarily mean the loco actually moved or had it's shed plate changed, at this time it was known that steam was on it's way out, especially the older classes, so I suspect many transfers or withdrawals were paper exercises and not changing shed plates simply labour saving measures.
As you note, I suspect Darlington was a central point where this class were pooled.
This small roundhouse would make a very nice model, I may tap you up for some desk top sized images in future
The W1 of course won't fit in there, but for some future projects it'll be ideal.
MD
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Funny you say that, Mick, because I was thinking last night what a great model the shed would make. The open roundhouse potentially makes a model which could be viewed from every direction. Guildford Shed, being a half roundhouse may be even easier/better, but possibly neither would work for me as I have models from all regions of BR including diesels! In fact, I suppose that there are very few geographical locations which would work for me in any sort of prototypical manner.
As for dates and allocations, I agree with your description of the situation - I was there! As I mentioned, the data from two sites does not always agree and there was a time, certainly on the Southern, at the very end of steam when there were no allocations as such. I wonder how they managed to provide motive power when it was all at the wrong end of the region!
It's a great shame that none of thee photos are dated, even by year. We can bracket some years after 1961 (wasp stripes on diesel ie 1961) and the average scrapping date, available on one site but subject to a proper interpretation, will give me a compromise date with which I can live.
Thanks for your help again with this subject, Mick. I've just located yet another neg which appears to be taken at the same time. All will follow in good time.
Brian
As for dates and allocations, I agree with your description of the situation - I was there! As I mentioned, the data from two sites does not always agree and there was a time, certainly on the Southern, at the very end of steam when there were no allocations as such. I wonder how they managed to provide motive power when it was all at the wrong end of the region!
It's a great shame that none of thee photos are dated, even by year. We can bracket some years after 1961 (wasp stripes on diesel ie 1961) and the average scrapping date, available on one site but subject to a proper interpretation, will give me a compromise date with which I can live.
Thanks for your help again with this subject, Mick. I've just located yet another neg which appears to be taken at the same time. All will follow in good time.
Brian
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Brian,
I know what you mean about geographical locales, but personally I don't care, I'm not trying to recreate a certain location at a given date, I just like the style of shed and the gritty feel to it, as a modelling aspect, what you stick inside is pretty irrelevant. For me I can rule out SR and GWR except Castles, Halls and Battle of Britain classes so that slices a huge swath of the UK off the target area. Moving into the midlands there are a lot of places where LMR and ER mixed, you may even get the odd Hall in some places.
The reason I like Darlington is it's size, or lack of, I haven't researched it yet but will guess at a NE 50' turntable and 50' roads, giving an engine shed about 150' square, as opposed to something like Crewe North or Carlisle Kingmoor which are in the region of 200' diameter. Basically you get a lot of model in a small space.
Look forward to the other views
MD
I know what you mean about geographical locales, but personally I don't care, I'm not trying to recreate a certain location at a given date, I just like the style of shed and the gritty feel to it, as a modelling aspect, what you stick inside is pretty irrelevant. For me I can rule out SR and GWR except Castles, Halls and Battle of Britain classes so that slices a huge swath of the UK off the target area. Moving into the midlands there are a lot of places where LMR and ER mixed, you may even get the odd Hall in some places.
The reason I like Darlington is it's size, or lack of, I haven't researched it yet but will guess at a NE 50' turntable and 50' roads, giving an engine shed about 150' square, as opposed to something like Crewe North or Carlisle Kingmoor which are in the region of 200' diameter. Basically you get a lot of model in a small space.
Look forward to the other views
MD