Chas's workbench

[Chas Levin]

Chas,
Unlikely to be vac brake on the continent, twin line air brake is more likely though - smaller pipes, different fittings etc

Right, having read up a bit (I must admit to having a rather hazy overview of railway brake systems generally) and found some photos I can confirm that the brake hoses on these KWStE wagons are air brake, not vacuum: thanks again for the correction, Rob!

As a follow-up question though, why did they need twin lines? The photos I'm finding so far - UK and continental - are single pipes only.

Was this perhaps an early manifestation, before later and more efficient systems allowed the use of a single line and standpipe?

 

[Chas Levin]

Right, I'm now a little better informed as to the history of air and vaccum brakes and the various changes of usage, though mainly in the UK. I also learned that until about 1865, the KWStE's practices were more US-influenced than UK, unlike most of the other German state railways of the time, meaning for instance a more widespread use of bogies for locos as well as coaches, so perhaps that had something to do with brake system preferences too?
As additional food for thought in deciding whether to include the air brake hoses, I noticed that the diagram in the instructions whose main purpose is to show the layout of the markings also shows a handbrake column at only one end... and no air brake hoses at all:



I realise I may be clutching at straws here - it's clearly a simplified rendition with various other details left out, such as brake shoes - but can this be taken as evidence that earlier styles of these wagons had no air brakes fitted? I suspect they only included the handbrake column to show which ends carried which legending, but I'm sure that must mean only one column was fitted...

Edited for a quick update: it occurred to me to have a look at some of the RTR continental vans and wagons I have (Roco, Liliput, Fleischmann and the like) and sure enough, many have a handbrake column at one end only, with no air (or vac!) pipes fitted, so I think I must be only fairly safe ground modelling these two wagons as unfitted.

 

[Chas Levin]

On another note, can anyone identify a mystery part from this kit though please? Four, in fact, a set of four identical pieces:







They're not shown in the instructions or anywhere that I cn see in the boxtop artwork; neither are there any pairs of holes anywhere that I can find on the chassis to correspond with the two end pieces of these parts, that clearly look as if they're meant to locate somwhere. I realise the projecting piece by which I'm holding the part is probably a moulding or sprue part intended to be removed (I cut these from the sprue without making a note of that!) but I'm still puzzled...

 

[Heather Kay]

They look like door bumpers, which usually live on the solebar. Perhaps they’re meant for a wagon with drop doors. The ones you’re building appear to only have cupboard style doors.

 

[Chas Levin]

Thanks Heather, I hadn't thought of that. The only thing I'd so far thought of is that they might be intended to hold something in the curved section at the end of the thick arm, after the riveted section, but I cannot imagine what. The look of them reminds me of gutter brackets...

I think they must be surplus: there are other surplus parts (there are four handbrake columns for instance, and an extra two sets of steps per wagon) so perhaps the sprue was also used for other wagon styles, as you suggest.
These doors are certainly cupboard style...

 

[Rob R]

Chas,
Re twin line air brakes. I am also finding them elusive (in a 19th century context anyway) but I did find this which may (or may not!!) be a starting point.
Kunze-Knorr Brake
Rob

 

[Chas Levin]

Chas,
Re twin line air brakes. I am also finding them elusive (in a 19th century context anyway) but I did find this which may (or may not!!) be a starting point.
Kunze-Knorr Brake
Rob

Thanks Rob; we've been pursuing similar lines of enquiry (Detective Chief Inspector...).

I'm not sure whether you're implying that you reached the same conclusion that I did when reading about the Kunze-Knorr system though, which was that as it was introduced after WWI and these wagons were - I believe - built mid-19th century, that would seem to confirm that I can safely leave them out if I'm modelling them in 19th century condition: is that what you thought too?

That doesn't answer the question of why some rolling stock might have been equipped with twin pipes of course, but we can leave that for investigation at a later date...

 

[Rob R]

I would stick with handbrakes only.
The twin pipes maybe something to do with the kunze-knorr system which was meant to be quite controllable in application and release.
One pipe for main air supply and 'tother for control?
Questions for another day.......

 

[Overseer]

On another note, can anyone identify a mystery part from this kit though please? Four, in fact, a set of four identical pieces:

View attachment 188826

View attachment 188827

View attachment 188828

They're not shown in the instructions or anywhere that I cn see in the boxtop artwork; neither are there any pairs of holes anywhere that I can find on the chassis to correspond with the two end pieces of these parts, that clearly look as if they're meant to locate somwhere. I realise the projecting piece by which I'm holding the part is probably a moulding or sprue part intended to be removed (I cut these from the sprue without making a note of that!) but I'm still puzzled...

They look like lashing points combined with side support brackets. Cut the sprue off flush and stick that (top) face to the underside of the body with the pegs in holes in the steel solebar.

 

[Chas Levin]

I would stick with handbrakes only.
The twin pipes maybe something to do with the kunze-knorr system which was meant to be quite controllable in application and release.
One pipe for main air supply and 'tother for control?
Questions for another day.......

Thanks Rob, I was all set to stick with handbrake only, but I decided to email Herr Berberich (following michl080's recommendation upthread of his very impressive modelling and knowledge in this field) and he very helpfully replied this morning, saying amongst other things that these wagons date, in his estimation, from 1890 or so and not earlier, by which time air brakes were definitely in use on the KWStE!
He specialises in KWStE narrow gauge modelling and he further states that while he's not sure exactly when air brakes were introduced on the company's standard gauge lines, all narrow gauge vehicles had them from the very start, also around 1890, when the narrow gauge lines were created.
I think that must mean that while the Kunze-Knorr system may have been invented in the early 20th century, there were clearly other air brake systems in use before that. While thanking Herr Berberich for his very helpful reply, I've also asked if he knows why there were twin hoses...

He was unable to help with the questions about the colour of the wagon interior however, as he models a later period, though he also recommended Wolfgang Diener's book on freight wagons, which I'd already ordered.

I took another look online in pursuit of colour information and while I know it's usually frowned upon to use others' models as sources of information as opposed to prototype photos, it's incredibly unlikely we're ever going to find colour photos of wagons of this age from this region, or even that we'll find reliable painting diagrams or similar workshop information and even if we did, that opens up the whole question of ageing and weathering of paint, different shades used and so forth.

I thought it might be interesting so see what other people have done in colouring the interiors of similar vehicles and, on the basis that some RTR manufacturers may have had access to prototype information at some point, I found two different takes on KWStE wagon interiors as seen below, where Trix went for black and Brawa went for a sort of duck-egg blue:





Black's a fairly safe option - it can always be passed off as the result of transporting coal and other laods that have obscured the original colour of the planks - but I wonder where Brawa got that rather attractive shade from?

 

[Chas Levin]

They look like lashing points combined with side support brackets. Cut the sprue off flush and stick that (top) face to the underside of the body with the pegs in holes in the steel solebar.

Thank you, that also sounds very plausible, but I cannot see any holes for the pegs to line up with anywhere on the chassis including underneath and I'm having some difficulty visualising how these pieces would be fitted - facing which way etc.
One thing that perhaps I didn't make clear: there are only four of them, for the two wagons. So either that's only two pieces per wagon, or they're on the wrong sprue and they're for another kit where there would be four used per vehicle.
Because, if I'm understanding the sort of use you mean, I'd imagine two per side, sticking out sideways from the solebar.
If it isn't too much trouble and you happen to know of any, could you please point me in the direction of a photo or two of this sort of bracket on a wagon?

 

[Chas Levin]

Thanks Rob, I was all set to stick with handbrake only, but I decided to email Herr Berberich (following michl080's recommendation upthread of his very impressive modelling and knowledge in this field) and he very helpfully replied this morning, saying amongst other things that these wagons date, in his estimation, from 1890 or so and not earlier, by which time air brakes were definitely in use on the KWStE!
He specialises in KWStE narrow gauge modelling and he further states that while he's not sure exactly when air brakes were introduced on the company's standard gauge lines, all narrow gauge vehicles had them from the very start, also around 1890, when the narrow gauge lines were created.
I think that must mean that while the Kunze-Knorr system may have been invented in the early 20th century, there were clearly other air brake systems in use before that. While thanking Herr Berberich for his very helpful reply, I've also asked if he knows why there were twin hoses...

A further very helpful reply from Armin Berberich. Apparently, Württemberg narrow gauge vehicles (his specialist area) only had one air brake hose on each end, but they're not arranged diagonally on the opposite sides (i.e. always on the right, whichever end you view), they're mirrored, with the advantage that the brake line runs straight through. The locomotives however had two brake hoses on each buffer beam, so that they didn't have to couple the brake hoses diagonally between loco and stock. This was necessary because the narrow-gauge lines used turntables so the loco direction frequently didn't match that of the wagons. I've not come across this system before: quite clever, I thought.

Coming back to the wagons here however, he also says that this system wasn't followed on standard gauge vehicles, which had a single hose each end, offset diagonally, just as we're used to seeing here in the UK.

So, I think the double hoses shown on the box-top photos and in the instructions must be a mistake, perhaps because someone preparing material for the kit manufacturers read about the double hoses on narrow gauge locos - or saw a photo - and thought that applied to other things.

He also confirmed that there would only be one handbrake column per vehicle, so I'm going with a single air hose at each end, arranged diagonally, with one handbrake per wagon: one less unknown quantity is now a known one, with thanks to all for the help and suggestions.

 

[Overseer]

Thank you, that also sounds very plausible, but I cannot see any holes for the pegs to line up with anywhere on the chassis including underneath and I'm having some difficulty visualising how these pieces would be fitted - facing which way etc.
One thing that perhaps I didn't make clear: there are only four of them, for the two wagons. So either that's only two pieces per wagon, or they're on the wrong sprue and they're for another kit where there would be four used per vehicle.
Because, if I'm understanding the sort of use you mean, I'd imagine two per side, sticking out sideways from the solebar.
If it isn't too much trouble and you happen to know of any, could you please point me in the direction of a photo or two of this sort of bracket on a wagon?

The brackets these look like were on wooden and steel bodied wagons with steel under frames, with the sides cantilevered out wider than the solebar, so it looks like the underframe moulding is used on other wagons and the parts are not needed in this kit. Australian examples of similar brackets (but without the lashing hook) are below, as used on a 10 inch steel channel solebar.

 

[Chas Levin]

The brackets these look like were on wooden and steel bodied wagons with steel under frames, with the sides cantilevered out wider than the solebar, so it looks like the underframe moulding is used on other wagons and the parts are not needed in this kit. Australian examples of similar brackets (but without the lashing hook) are below, as used on a 10 inch steel channel solebar.

View attachment 188939

Thank you, very kind of you to dig this up! It certainly does look like my mystery parts, doesn't it? And where you refer to the sides being cantilevered out wider than the solebar, that's part of what I couldn't understand - the fact that if these were on the side of one of the wagons I'm dealing with, they'd stick out way further than the body.
Thank you for clarifying: I shall put this parts aside for another future project...

 

[michael080]

Hi there, it took a little bit to collect information about your KWStE freight wagon.

I found a picture that shows a wagon from about the same time as your model. It was taken at the time of production in 1869.



It has a brakemans platform on either end which was a typical feature until the 1860s. The exmple above has only one hand brake. Note the very flimsy railing. This example has old fashioned wooden brake blocks, no automatic brake and no vacuum pipes. I could only find one picture of a freight wagon with vacuum pipes and that one had only one hose. The transistion from vacuum to pressure operated Knorr brake was not before the beginning of the 20th century.

All freight wagons of the KWSte were green . The first red-brown painted wagons appeared around 1910 after the foundation of the "Staatsbahnwagenverband" that unified the design of freight wagons in Germany.
Although the colour is not precisely defined it may have been comparable to RAL 6009 Tannengrün.

Note the safety chains that were used in case the coupling would break.

"TRK 200 Ctr" is the Tragkraft or load capacity. 200 Ctr are 10 metric tons, WgGew. xx Ctr is the Wagengewicht, the tara weight. It is still missing. This is not applied by the manufacturer, but by the railway company.

Michael

 

[Chas Levin]

Hi there, it took a little bit to collect information about your KWStE freight wagon.

I found a picture that shows a wagon from about the same time as your model. It was taken at the time of production in 1869.

View attachment 188990

It has a brakemans platform on either end which was a typical feature until the 1860s. The exmple above has only one hand brake. Note the very flimsy railing. This example has old fashioned wooden brake blocks, no automatic brake and no vacuum pipes. I could only find one picture of a freight wagon with vacuum pipes and that one had only one hose. The transistion from vacuum to pressure operated Knorr brake was not before the beginning of the 20th century.

All freight wagons of the KWSte were green . The first red-brown painted wagons appeared around 1910 after the foundation of the "Staatsbahnwagenverband" that unified the design of freight wagons in Germany.
Although the colour is not precisely defined it may have been comparable to RAL 6009 Tannengrün.

Note the safety chains that were used in case the coupling would break.

"TRK 200 Ctr" is the Tragkraft or load capacity. 200 Ctr are 10 metric tons, WgGew. xx Ctr is the Wagengewicht, the tara weight. It is still missing. This is not applied by the manufacturer, but by the railway company.

Michael

Hello Michael, thank you very much indeed for the information, very kind of you! Very interesting material...

As regards colour, what you say doesn't surprise me, but it does please me. Most of the KWStE wagons I've seen in either prototype pictures (very few indeed!) or models (either RTR or others' kits, quite a few viewable online) during my recent online researches have been that dark green colour (and looking at RAL 6009 Fir Green, it certainly looks right, doesn't it?). I'd followed the kit artwork (and used the supplied but dried-up red oxide paint as a colour guide) but it had occurred to me that it might be a later livery: no problem, the wagon bodies - which are still separate from the chassis assemblies - will be stripped and repainted, because I'd much prefer the earlier period for these wagons. I would just apply the green over the oxide (it'd be dark enough to cover) but the white-metal castings are so beautifully crisp that I don't want to risk obscuring any detail in too many paint layers.

There seems to be some conflicting opinion on air brakes. Both @Rob R and I had read about the Kunze-Knorr system being a 20th century thing, but Armin Berberich was quite adamant that standard gauge KWStE wagons had some sort of air brake from the 1890s.

My inclination is that air brake hoses and the red oxide colour seem more suited to the early 20th century, whereas handbrake only, with the dark green livery, seem to sit better with the late 19th century.

I do indeed note the very flimsy railings; if this were an etched brass kit and generally of fine detail, I'd make replacement railings from fine brass wire, but I'll leave the plastic chassis and it's fittings as they are I think - otherwise I'd have to replace the buffers too... thin end of the wedge!!

The safety chains are interesting though: I have a few different types of scale chain and adding them might be nice, though as I'll be using model couplings rather than scale prototype ones, the chains won't look as good as they might... I'll ponder that.

Excellent! Thank you again: paint stripping tomorrow. As Robert Duvall's character Lieutenant Kilgore almost said in 'Apocalypse Now', "I love the smell of cellulose thinners in the morning..."

 

[Chas Levin]

Back to bare metal for the KWStE bodies:



I'm pleased for two reasons - firstly, because I'll be happier with the green livery and second, because there are a couple of areas along the outer top edges of the sides that I hadn't smoothed off quite as well as I should have done but which I'd decided to live with as I only noticed them after applying the red oxide livery and this is of course an excellent opportunity to improve them.

The chassis assemblies have had a quite dust of primer today too, as much as anything to show up any mould lines I missed, of which there are predictably a couple:



I took a look online at RAL 6009, which seems to be commonly labelled in English as Fir Green. I was quite surprised at the variety of hues being labelled as RAL 6009. I'm used to there being a certain variety amongst different sources for things like paint shades but if you google RAL 6009, click on 'Images' and scroll slowly down the page, you'll see there's a fair old variation...

It seems to me that GNR Dark Green - for instance Phoenix Precision's version, P752, is a pretty good match. It's a colour I'm quite familiar with from my GNR modelling and as soon as I looked at RAL 6009 and also looked a little more closely at some of the RTR KWStE offerings it occurred to me that I might very well have a very good solution already in stock. We'll see: a quick trip to Halfords can't do any harm too...

 

[Chas Levin]

Today's post brought a heavy new arrival:



And I can also reveal that Halfords Rover Brooklands Green is looking like it might be a good match for KWStE green...

 

[Chas Levin]

Here's the Halfords 'Rover Brooklands Green' in KWStE guise. The photo's made them look quite a lot lighter - or should that be 'brighter'? - than in reality and they're actually quite a good match for the lighter versions of RAL 6009 that I found online:



I was surprised that there was such a variety of shades online that are all labelled as RAL 6009: I assumed the RAL system would be like the Pantone one, where I thought the colours were fully standardised... until I tried googling a Pantone number or two just now and found the same thing - a wide variety of different hues all being labelled as the same.
My faith in the Pantone system has been rocked to the core. I know: first world problems, right?

Well, it takes the pressure off worrying about the accuracy of the colours. By the time you take into account the effects of age, sunshine, bad weather, dirt and wear and tear, this is as likely to be spot on as anything else of a similar shade.

For the interiors, I found a photo of a vintage Trix KWStE wagon with the interior done in a very dark brown, intended I think to represent old wood. By making the shade dark enough on these wagons, I think I'll be able to get away with painting the internal ironwork in black (which I feel fairly sure it must have been) and it'll be sufficiently similar to the very dark brown as not to stand out too much.

Not to mention the addition of suitable wagon loads...

 

[Osgood]

But is the variation you found online not down to the fact that colours viewed on a screen can vary considerably c/w an actual sample?

A paint mixed to a RAL colour should be consistent from any reputable paint supplier.

If searching online I find this site most useful, especially if you're looking for something slightly different to a specific number.:

Alternative colours to RAL 6009 - Fir green | RAL Classic to RAL BS Pantone Federal Standard AS 2700 Farrow and Ball Little Greene Dulux DIN NCS

Alternative colours to RAL 6009 - Fir green | RAL Classic colour converter to RAL, BS, Pantone, DIN, Australian Standard, Farrow and Ball, Little Greene, Federal Standard, Dulux and NCS

www.e-paint.co.uk

And if you have a sample of the paint to hand, then you can at least get a good feel for how close matches will differ, regardless of whether the shade you see on the screen is a close match to your physical specimen.