Captain Kernow
Western Thunderer
Everything sounds spiffing.
What about bullhead track?
What about bullhead track?
Flaxfield- A bucolic 1950s Suffolk backwater
- Thread starter NHY 581
- Start date
NHY 581
Western Thunderer
Hi Tim,
Yes, bullhead track will be used. The real Mid Suffolk gradually converted over to bullhead and was completed by 1947.
I've got pretty much all in stock though the trackplan is not finalised as of yet.
Hi Phil,
All good advice. I do normally spend quite some time making sure all is good with the track, when laid, when painted and when weathered. I always finish each stage by playing trains. It reminds me why I am doing what I do.....and I'd recommend it to others.
Rob
NHY 581
Western Thunderer
Morning Jonte,
Thanks. I have looked at those Peco Twist and Lock motors before but had overlooked them this time round. Are they really as straightforward to install as your photos suggest ?
Rob
jonte
Western Thunderer
Morning, Rob
In a word: ‘yes’.
There were five, from memory on this ‘yet-to-complete’ affair, and each (surprisingly) worked first time each time as per ‘what it says in the tin’
Of course, they only work with latch operated turnouts i.e. Peco, and are a tad expensive , but if it’s a small affair like mine, I can live with it.
Sorry to be brief, Rob, but I’m leaving shortly for a London train.
Cheers,
Jon
In a word: ‘yes’.
There were five, from memory on this ‘yet-to-complete’ affair, and each (surprisingly) worked first time each time as per ‘what it says in the tin’
Of course, they only work with latch operated turnouts i.e. Peco, and are a tad expensive , but if it’s a small affair like mine, I can live with it.
Sorry to be brief, Rob, but I’m leaving shortly for a London train.
Cheers,
Jon
Quintus
Western Thunderer
I have used tortoise units on my 7mm layout, and they have been totally trouble free for over twenty years. However, they are rather bulky, so for my small EM gauge affair currently under construction I decided to go for MTB MP1's. They are more compact and need less depth under the baseboard. They are quieter than the Tortoise, and well thought out with the adjustable throw etc.
Definitely worth a look I think.
Definitely worth a look I think.
NHY 581
Western Thunderer
Evening all,
I was in work earlier and took the opportunity to look over the twist lock point motors suggested by Jonte. I like the concept and the seemingly straightforward fitting etc. I've mentioned earlier that a small test bed may be knocked up and these are a distinct possibility.
I've a few things to resolve before I get that far but I do fancy giving these a go.
Rob.
I was in work earlier and took the opportunity to look over the twist lock point motors suggested by Jonte. I like the concept and the seemingly straightforward fitting etc. I've mentioned earlier that a small test bed may be knocked up and these are a distinct possibility.
I've a few things to resolve before I get that far but I do fancy giving these a go.
Rob.
Nick Rogers
Western Thunderer
Good morning Rob,
I’m very much looking forward to seeing this little project develop. I think you are wise to think carefully about your modelling approach: I know I have (and have influenced others recently!).
Enjoy the planning part of the project. Get it right at this stage. Be a belter based on your other work.
Best wishes,
I’m very much looking forward to seeing this little project develop. I think you are wise to think carefully about your modelling approach: I know I have (and have influenced others recently!).
Enjoy the planning part of the project. Get it right at this stage. Be a belter based on your other work.
Best wishes,
76043
Western Thunderer
For yet another two penneth's worth on this subject, I'd say that if using the Peco twist and lock you'll probably still need a CDU as the motors are solenoids. They do look good to me as a simple option and as the Peco bullheads are latched, all will be good in your world.
I found to my cost that eventually all my switches were burnt out because I didn't use one, see point 3 in the attached document. Seems arcing in the switch is to blame. Fitting a CDU is child's play, just goes online from the power supply, couldn't be easier.
I thought I could get away without one because I only had four point motors. I learnt to my cost at shows when points stopped working and I incorrectly thought it was the point motor. I'd wasted time at one show changing a motor to no avail. Now the CDU is fitted the "clunk" is a very clean sounding noise with none of the sparking sounds that I used to hear. I do like the solenoid noise because it lets me know the point has changed. I don't know why everyone complains about it when it's only a model after all, I guess I'll never understand bouncing signal arms either, life is too short and there's no time for such frivolity in my life.
Tony
I found to my cost that eventually all my switches were burnt out because I didn't use one, see point 3 in the attached document. Seems arcing in the switch is to blame. Fitting a CDU is child's play, just goes online from the power supply, couldn't be easier.
I thought I could get away without one because I only had four point motors. I learnt to my cost at shows when points stopped working and I incorrectly thought it was the point motor. I'd wasted time at one show changing a motor to no avail. Now the CDU is fitted the "clunk" is a very clean sounding noise with none of the sparking sounds that I used to hear. I do like the solenoid noise because it lets me know the point has changed. I don't know why everyone complains about it when it's only a model after all, I guess I'll never understand bouncing signal arms either, life is too short and there's no time for such frivolity in my life.
Tony
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simond
Western Thunderer
I guess it's a hobby and we can all pick and choose what we do and how we do it.
I don't like solenoids because the real thing doesn't move with a "bang" and more importantly (to me at least) because I make my own track, and I don't have any desire to do it twice!
I suspect bouncing signals are so very typical of the real thing that it very much matters to some - and the further from the box, the more they bounce!
I do concur that your solenoids are likely to make short work of switches without a CDU - paticularly if fed from DC.
atb
Simon
76043
Western Thunderer
Hi Simon, Totally agree it's a hobby and we are all free to do as we please. This is a vital aspect that makes us happy in what we do.
I'm afraid I have some odd views on how far we should go in model railways because I was professionally VFX trained. I guess for me we are not suspending belief, but just playing trains. Not a common view I know.
Solenoids are also a bit useless if your points aren't latched and are handmade, so servo's seem to be the best option to me to hold the blades in position.
Cheers
Tony
I'm afraid I have some odd views on how far we should go in model railways because I was professionally VFX trained. I guess for me we are not suspending belief, but just playing trains. Not a common view I know.
Solenoids are also a bit useless if your points aren't latched and are handmade, so servo's seem to be the best option to me to hold the blades in position.
Cheers
Tony
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jonte
Western Thunderer
Rob
The last twenty four hours have been a little hectic in these parts, so sorry to leave you with only the scantest of info..
Thankfully, I’m finally home, if not a little weary for my adventure, so I’lll try and share a little more info that might help swing you one way or t’other in the morning (Thursday), if that’s okay.
Cheers for now,
Jon
jonte
Western Thunderer
I absolutely concur, Tony, but I just had to have one
I wholly concur with Simon (@simond ): only ‘big’ bounces should be found on signals furthest from the box, and as the one above will be sited within spitting distance, it breaks all the rules, but I just liked it
Apologies, Rob, for the hijack.
Jon
NHY 581
Western Thunderer
Morning all,
I've started tinkering with the ex-G.E.R van body, destined for Ewe as a precursor to one being completed for Flaxfield. It's from Marc Dobson's lovely Pre-Grouping Railways range. I want a general air of decrepitude for both so spent a few hours yesterday using a fibre pen on the planks themselve for texture before deepening the grooves between the planks gouging and wiggling the pointy thing used, in order to produce what I hope are uneven gaps and general distress.
Here's how it started off.
Fibre brushing in progress
Gouging in progress.
The use of such vans for storage at wayside stations in East Anglia was common place, such as here at Sibleys for Chickney & Broxted on the Thaxted branch.
I'm looking forward to adding the finish, which if we take the colourized view above as an indication only, would seem to be aged creosote.
Certainly in black and white views the vans are dark in finish so probably not far off.
However, Paul Clarke's example on his beautifully observed 7mm slice of Suffolk is in grey......equally pleasing so being honest, in the first instance, it will come down to what I think will look best against the grey yard on Ewe
Looking at the unpainted van posed on Ewe, gungy brown may well provide a better arty contrast.
But what ever I go with, I'll be using a variety of acrylics and weathering powders to hopefully produce the desired effect. First job though is to add a roof from plasticard.
Rob.
I've started tinkering with the ex-G.E.R van body, destined for Ewe as a precursor to one being completed for Flaxfield. It's from Marc Dobson's lovely Pre-Grouping Railways range. I want a general air of decrepitude for both so spent a few hours yesterday using a fibre pen on the planks themselve for texture before deepening the grooves between the planks gouging and wiggling the pointy thing used, in order to produce what I hope are uneven gaps and general distress.
Here's how it started off.
Fibre brushing in progress
Gouging in progress.
The use of such vans for storage at wayside stations in East Anglia was common place, such as here at Sibleys for Chickney & Broxted on the Thaxted branch.
I'm looking forward to adding the finish, which if we take the colourized view above as an indication only, would seem to be aged creosote.
Certainly in black and white views the vans are dark in finish so probably not far off.
However, Paul Clarke's example on his beautifully observed 7mm slice of Suffolk is in grey......equally pleasing so being honest, in the first instance, it will come down to what I think will look best against the grey yard on Ewe
Looking at the unpainted van posed on Ewe, gungy brown may well provide a better arty contrast.
But what ever I go with, I'll be using a variety of acrylics and weathering powders to hopefully produce the desired effect. First job though is to add a roof from plasticard.
Rob.
If servos are installed correctly they do not require constant adjustment. What you must have between the servo and the tie-bar is a spring so as to not present the servo with a solid stop. That will burn-out the servo. Something similar to how the Tortoise/Colbalt drive the tie-bar is what's needed. The R/C plane community call them Servo Savers. Unfortunately the R/C Plane type don't suit railway operation hence the use of a Tortoise style linkage.
The advantage with using servos is the ability to link it to a relay for changing the crossing polarity at the same time. This saves using fiddly micro switches or expensive "Frog-Juicers"
However at the end of the day it's your choice : the bang-bang noise of solenoids or the silent gentle movement of servos.
NHY 581
Western Thunderer
Morning Paxo,
Thank you.
I'm pretty much settled on trying Jonte's suggested Peco Twist and lock solution, plus their linked micro switches. Having read up on it and examined them at first hand, it hardly looks to be an arduous installation. I don't mind the clunk as per Tony's observations up thread. I too find it quite reassuring.
I've also found a 3D printed template so as to assist the drilling of holes for the twist and lock point motors from above so as I say, I'll be trying one of these out. The secondary choice, if the T&L option doesn't work out, will be the MTB motors, mainly as I'm going to the Czech Republic in a couple of months and can pick them up there at a cheaper price than here.
Rob.
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Captain Kernow
Western Thunderer
And useful in a noisy exhibition hall as well...
76043
Western Thunderer
As I only exhibit my layout and don't operate at home, I hadn't quite realised in my odd ramblings above that that's exactly why I favour them. That clunk is totally reassuring when you're half in a conversation with someone and trying to operate at the same time.
Tony
jonte
Western Thunderer
Finally back in the room, here’s an addendum to the ‘Twist-Lok’ solenoids which I hope might help you, Rob, one way or the other.
One of the benefits of these motors is that they come ready wired, unlike their Peco counterparts, which appeals if one is a little reluctant to solder.
I ran mine to chocolate block connectors, as can be seen in the previous photos, which prevents unwelcome strain on the soldered joints when running wires back to source for instance - nothing worse than having to find the source of bad joint!
From the connectors, wires can then be run to control switches of your choice (I simply used ON-ON SPDT types that you can pick up in packs of say five or so for not a lot, attached to my home made control panel, which route the direction of the current to the ‘straight-ahead’ or ‘diverging’ directions via the electrofrog ‘frogs’ of the Peco points (actually, if you pay a few extra pennies, there’s a micro switch accessory provided by Peco to do this for you automatically when you change the points, and which just simply attaches to the motor assembly (but I was just a bit tight……).
Other wires from the aforementioned choc-bloc connectors, go to the source ( I just used the AC output of a traditional DC controller), and to other motors in the series to create the electrical ‘loop’ required (all this is explained in a handy diagram that accompanies the motors). Incidentally, and mentioned by Tony earlier, I too route my power via a CDU for a couple of reasons (just in case here’s mine ringed in the following photo, but forgive me as I know you probably know these things better than I):
Available from Gaugemaster for instance, I bought mine for less than a tenner from a source found on a well known online auction site, and they all come with a simple diagram as to how to attach the wires; it really is simple, Rob.
Now back to those couple of reasons I just mentioned: first, and as Tony alluded to, there simply isn’t enough ‘whack’ from the AC source of the controller - not my Gaugemaster anyhow- to throw say four or five points - so the addition of a CDU provides the extra required to throw them. Second - important to my method of operating the points - they only provide power momentarily such that the solenoids simply cannot burn out (something they’re prone to), no matter how long you depress your button, apply your probe or hold your switch over, as in my case (mine are operated via an ‘ON-ON, centre off’ switches, which spring back to the centre (neutral, if you like) once you release the switch to move the point blades over, and again, are offered in packs of five or so).
If you’re like me, Rob, I prefer piccies to waffle, so here’s a picture of my make shift control panel to make my mention of the above switches (hopefully) a little clearer:
Seen side by side, one of the switches ‘switches’ the power from one track to the other, whilst its immediate neighbour moves the point blades over. For instance, in the above photo, immediately adjacent to the little number 4, is the centre off switch which moves the tie bar, the switch next to it being the ON-ON switch which transfers the current to either route from the crossing. To keep it simple in operation, if the switch that moves the point blades from straight-ahead to diverging is switched ‘downwards’, then the adjacent current direction switch as mentioned is also switched downwards, the opposite procedure being adopted if moving back to straight-ahead. Our techno minded members will probably have kittens reading this, but I like to keep things simple (and in any case, do not possess the required know how!).
Whilst here, I’ll also mention a further benefit I’ve found with Twist-Lok, Rob, which concerns the operating bar(s) which poke through the hole in the point blade. Best of all, Peco provides ‘plenty’ of length so it obviates the worry about having enough to poke through the thickness of base and sub base of baseboard. I used 12mm ply on this layout (overkill!), not bothering with say a cork sub base as before, but in any case, there would have been plenty to penetrate if I’d done so. Incidentally, the operating rod/bar also extends from the base, and as I was using traditional ply top on 2”x1” frame, I found it necessary to remove some from the bottom as well as the top, but if you’re planning on using the deeper baseboard kits, this shouldn’t prove necessary.
Cutting the excess bar was simple: I merely marked the point at which the bar protrudes from the tie bar, then placed it firmly in the jaws of a vice before cutting with a piercing saw (the assembly is robust enough to be removed with a hacksaw if no piercing saw). I started off leaving a little more in case the bar wasn’t long enough to operate the tie bar to be on the safe side as seen here:
however, eventually I ended up cutting slightly below to make it less conspicuous without any ill effects to operation:
I think that’s about all, Rob, and I trust I haven’t made it all sound over complicated, as believe me it isn’t. From positioning and getting it right with minimum effort, to ease of removing and reattaching to aid the fitting of rail/ wiring, it really does aid matters and makes it less of the chore I’ve found their cheaper version to use. Would I use them again, absolutely. Worth the extra money IMHO.
Good luck, whatever you decide.
Jon
Edit: I’ve just noticed your earlier reply, Rob, so you can ignore most of this. I started this post earlier this morning, but with visitors, builders and phone calls interrupting, I’ve only just been able to complete and post. Glad you seem to be opting for them, and I didn’t realise there’s a handy 3D print to assist with future purchases
Jon
One of the benefits of these motors is that they come ready wired, unlike their Peco counterparts, which appeals if one is a little reluctant to solder.
I ran mine to chocolate block connectors, as can be seen in the previous photos, which prevents unwelcome strain on the soldered joints when running wires back to source for instance - nothing worse than having to find the source of bad joint!
From the connectors, wires can then be run to control switches of your choice (I simply used ON-ON SPDT types that you can pick up in packs of say five or so for not a lot, attached to my home made control panel, which route the direction of the current to the ‘straight-ahead’ or ‘diverging’ directions via the electrofrog ‘frogs’ of the Peco points (actually, if you pay a few extra pennies, there’s a micro switch accessory provided by Peco to do this for you automatically when you change the points, and which just simply attaches to the motor assembly (but I was just a bit tight……).
Other wires from the aforementioned choc-bloc connectors, go to the source ( I just used the AC output of a traditional DC controller), and to other motors in the series to create the electrical ‘loop’ required (all this is explained in a handy diagram that accompanies the motors). Incidentally, and mentioned by Tony earlier, I too route my power via a CDU for a couple of reasons (just in case here’s mine ringed in the following photo, but forgive me as I know you probably know these things better than I):
Available from Gaugemaster for instance, I bought mine for less than a tenner from a source found on a well known online auction site, and they all come with a simple diagram as to how to attach the wires; it really is simple, Rob.
Now back to those couple of reasons I just mentioned: first, and as Tony alluded to, there simply isn’t enough ‘whack’ from the AC source of the controller - not my Gaugemaster anyhow- to throw say four or five points - so the addition of a CDU provides the extra required to throw them. Second - important to my method of operating the points - they only provide power momentarily such that the solenoids simply cannot burn out (something they’re prone to), no matter how long you depress your button, apply your probe or hold your switch over, as in my case (mine are operated via an ‘ON-ON, centre off’ switches, which spring back to the centre (neutral, if you like) once you release the switch to move the point blades over, and again, are offered in packs of five or so).
If you’re like me, Rob, I prefer piccies to waffle, so here’s a picture of my make shift control panel to make my mention of the above switches (hopefully) a little clearer:
Seen side by side, one of the switches ‘switches’ the power from one track to the other, whilst its immediate neighbour moves the point blades over. For instance, in the above photo, immediately adjacent to the little number 4, is the centre off switch which moves the tie bar, the switch next to it being the ON-ON switch which transfers the current to either route from the crossing. To keep it simple in operation, if the switch that moves the point blades from straight-ahead to diverging is switched ‘downwards’, then the adjacent current direction switch as mentioned is also switched downwards, the opposite procedure being adopted if moving back to straight-ahead. Our techno minded members will probably have kittens reading this, but I like to keep things simple (and in any case, do not possess the required know how!).
Whilst here, I’ll also mention a further benefit I’ve found with Twist-Lok, Rob, which concerns the operating bar(s) which poke through the hole in the point blade. Best of all, Peco provides ‘plenty’ of length so it obviates the worry about having enough to poke through the thickness of base and sub base of baseboard. I used 12mm ply on this layout (overkill!), not bothering with say a cork sub base as before, but in any case, there would have been plenty to penetrate if I’d done so. Incidentally, the operating rod/bar also extends from the base, and as I was using traditional ply top on 2”x1” frame, I found it necessary to remove some from the bottom as well as the top, but if you’re planning on using the deeper baseboard kits, this shouldn’t prove necessary.
Cutting the excess bar was simple: I merely marked the point at which the bar protrudes from the tie bar, then placed it firmly in the jaws of a vice before cutting with a piercing saw (the assembly is robust enough to be removed with a hacksaw if no piercing saw). I started off leaving a little more in case the bar wasn’t long enough to operate the tie bar to be on the safe side as seen here:
however, eventually I ended up cutting slightly below to make it less conspicuous without any ill effects to operation:
I think that’s about all, Rob, and I trust I haven’t made it all sound over complicated, as believe me it isn’t. From positioning and getting it right with minimum effort, to ease of removing and reattaching to aid the fitting of rail/ wiring, it really does aid matters and makes it less of the chore I’ve found their cheaper version to use. Would I use them again, absolutely. Worth the extra money IMHO.
Good luck, whatever you decide.
Jon
Edit: I’ve just noticed your earlier reply, Rob, so you can ignore most of this. I started this post earlier this morning, but with visitors, builders and phone calls interrupting, I’ve only just been able to complete and post. Glad you seem to be opting for them, and I didn’t realise there’s a handy 3D print to assist with future purchases
Jon
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