Focalplane
Western Thunderer
Last September we stopped on the way across France to drop off some parts for this 1939 Lagonda V12. Designed by W O Bentley. The owner also has an LG6 and a Riley Two-Narff. I love those four carbs!
Hairy Bikers and Other Petrol Heads
- Thread starter Eastsidepilot
- Start date
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
Focalplane
Western Thunderer
Simon, according to period lubrication charts you should check oiling points as often as every 500 miles! Not exactly what modern manuals suggest.
Mike W
Western Thunderer
I'd love a Lagonda V12, but its really a racing engine and I'm not convinced its practical for the road without modifications. Didn't they have plain big ends with no detachable whitemetal, so when it wore you needed new rods? Think many things like that have been improved on the cars seen on the road today. Good looking engine though. There were not many V12s in 1930s road cars, another being the Rolls Royce Phantom III, which is also hugely expensive to maintain!
On balance I'd settle for an LG6!
Mike
On balance I'd settle for an LG6!
Mike
simond
Western Thunderer
well, I have a V-twin in bits. The Guzzi was making a knocking noise, sounded little-end-ish, but wasn't.
Big end shells.
The Right hand ones (top of picture) are smooth and a little worn, more than I would have expected for a bike that is 43 years old but has only done 28k miles. There is some slight pitting on both shells at 90 degrees to the split line, so area of highest load
The left hand ones (lower and below) are obviously pitted and wrecked.
I'd be interested in opinions regarding the cause of failure.
There is not much smearing which makes me suspect that it is not a lubrication issue, or, at least not a lack-of-lubrication issue.
The pitting is crystalline in appearance, and has significantly affected the bearing clearance - it's at least 0.2 mm oversize. I detected the issue when I was taking the gudgeon pins out. I could feel the play.
Both big ends are on the same crankpin, the pin is unmarked, appears perfect, so it is likely that I am lucky that I caught it when I did - It really did not make an awful bottom-end-clunk, in fact, the noise was much more like pinking.
There is an online guide which suggests corrosion may cause this - given the bike's light usage, and it's lay-up for several years whilst we were in India, it could be condensation-corrosion. There is no white stuff in the oil, it's black/brown and oily
Other possibilities are fatigue failure due to excessive load - well, I don't thrash it, so I'm unsure about that.
Tappets on the other hand, might be a lubrication issue, though again, it is pitting, rather than any obvious wear marks; Left Exhaust, Left Inlet, Right Inlet, Right Exhaust respectively - much pitting of the inlets, the exhausts are less affected. Exhausts are likely to be hotter, and are nearer the oil pump, not that I can see that making a difference.
They are lubricated by oil from the heads coming down the pushrod tunnels and filling the buckets to the hole, and then running down the groove you can see in the Left inlet one, where I guess it drips on the cams. The con-rods have oil-squirt holes which presumably lubricate the bores, piston skirts and camshaft too. All the holes I can see are clear.
I guess now I need to decide whether to replace the shells and tappets (all ordered and on the way) or to bite the bullet, and take the engine completely to bits, which will lead to new main bearings, cam bearings, cam chain and tensioner, and anything else that looks iffy.
If I do the former, and all is well, that would be great, but there are obvious risks.
If I do the latter, there is time and money, and the liklihood of not getting it back together in time for the trip in September.
If I were convinced that it was only a condensation - corrosion - pitting issue, I might be more inclined to take the risk - thorough wash out, new oil and filter, (they were done a year ago, at which point it was just another "clattery Guzzi") and call it a done deal.
what is the opinion of the congregation?
cheers
Simon
Big end shells.
The Right hand ones (top of picture) are smooth and a little worn, more than I would have expected for a bike that is 43 years old but has only done 28k miles. There is some slight pitting on both shells at 90 degrees to the split line, so area of highest load
The left hand ones (lower and below) are obviously pitted and wrecked.
I'd be interested in opinions regarding the cause of failure.
There is not much smearing which makes me suspect that it is not a lubrication issue, or, at least not a lack-of-lubrication issue.
The pitting is crystalline in appearance, and has significantly affected the bearing clearance - it's at least 0.2 mm oversize. I detected the issue when I was taking the gudgeon pins out. I could feel the play.
Both big ends are on the same crankpin, the pin is unmarked, appears perfect, so it is likely that I am lucky that I caught it when I did - It really did not make an awful bottom-end-clunk, in fact, the noise was much more like pinking.
There is an online guide which suggests corrosion may cause this - given the bike's light usage, and it's lay-up for several years whilst we were in India, it could be condensation-corrosion. There is no white stuff in the oil, it's black/brown and oily
Other possibilities are fatigue failure due to excessive load - well, I don't thrash it, so I'm unsure about that.
Tappets on the other hand, might be a lubrication issue, though again, it is pitting, rather than any obvious wear marks; Left Exhaust, Left Inlet, Right Inlet, Right Exhaust respectively - much pitting of the inlets, the exhausts are less affected. Exhausts are likely to be hotter, and are nearer the oil pump, not that I can see that making a difference.
They are lubricated by oil from the heads coming down the pushrod tunnels and filling the buckets to the hole, and then running down the groove you can see in the Left inlet one, where I guess it drips on the cams. The con-rods have oil-squirt holes which presumably lubricate the bores, piston skirts and camshaft too. All the holes I can see are clear.
I guess now I need to decide whether to replace the shells and tappets (all ordered and on the way) or to bite the bullet, and take the engine completely to bits, which will lead to new main bearings, cam bearings, cam chain and tensioner, and anything else that looks iffy.
If I do the former, and all is well, that would be great, but there are obvious risks.
If I do the latter, there is time and money, and the liklihood of not getting it back together in time for the trip in September.
If I were convinced that it was only a condensation - corrosion - pitting issue, I might be more inclined to take the risk - thorough wash out, new oil and filter, (they were done a year ago, at which point it was just another "clattery Guzzi") and call it a done deal.
what is the opinion of the congregation?
cheers
Simon
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
If the bike has stood for a long length of time then corrosion due to condensation can be an issue especially where it's stored. Big end failure could be, more than likely, down to lack of oil pressure .
If it was my bike Simon I'd be inclined to re-build the motor completely, top to bottom, and fit a new oil pump to make sure.
Wont teach Granny to suck eggs but I always had an oil pressure gauge fitted on my bikes.
Col.
If it was my bike Simon I'd be inclined to re-build the motor completely, top to bottom, and fit a new oil pump to make sure.
Wont teach Granny to suck eggs but I always had an oil pressure gauge fitted on my bikes.
Col.
michael080
Western Thunderer
How old was the engine oil? I think the reason could be a depleted corrosion inhibitor additive.
Michael
Michael
simond
Western Thunderer
Hi Michael,
about a year & a half, but previously, it was been rather longer in the engine, though it leaked out with depressing regularity until I got the rear main seal, and the clutch replaced.
The poor old girl was ignored for rather too long. I’m now paying the price…
I'm also more inclined to think it’s corrosion rather than oil starvation.
If you’re right, or Col is, either way, I’m thinking it still needs to come to bits as the mains and cam bearings need looking at, and maybe replacing, and while I’m at it, cam chain and tensioner.
bummer
Atb
Simon
about a year & a half, but previously, it was been rather longer in the engine, though it leaked out with depressing regularity until I got the rear main seal, and the clutch replaced.
The poor old girl was ignored for rather too long. I’m now paying the price…
I'm also more inclined to think it’s corrosion rather than oil starvation.
If you’re right, or Col is, either way, I’m thinking it still needs to come to bits as the mains and cam bearings need looking at, and maybe replacing, and while I’m at it, cam chain and tensioner.
bummer
Atb
Simon
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Max M
Western Thunderer
The conundrum here is why it affected one set of shells and not the other.
If it was lubrication failure then I'd expect to see signs of overheating which does not appear to be the case here and
would also expect it to affect both b/e shells.
Same argument would also apply for condensation?
If the oil ad done some mileage then perhaps a build up of corrosive elements were active during the lay up?
Final thought is that it is down to poor material and quality control and there is nothing you could have done about it.
I guess you would always wondering about what other gremlins may be lurking inside the motor if you reassemble without further investigation.
I'm with Col and would be inclined to do a full inspection so that you would know the bike is good for many more miles.
If it was lubrication failure then I'd expect to see signs of overheating which does not appear to be the case here and
would also expect it to affect both b/e shells.
Same argument would also apply for condensation?
If the oil ad done some mileage then perhaps a build up of corrosive elements were active during the lay up?
Final thought is that it is down to poor material and quality control and there is nothing you could have done about it.
I guess you would always wondering about what other gremlins may be lurking inside the motor if you reassemble without further investigation.
I'm with Col and would be inclined to do a full inspection so that you would know the bike is good for many more miles.
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
An even bigger one if you don't re-build it now and have to strip it down again next year !, I'd bite the bullet mate, you'll live to enjoy it all the morebummer
Atb
Simon
I just bit it, £600 for a 70,000 mile service on the Jeep and only £120 of it was labour
....and there 'aint a lot in parts and oil used. !
Overseer
Western Thunderer
I think it could be sulphur in the oil causing the pitting. Either in older engine oil (ie not removed during refining) or from fuel with more sulphur than it should have. With that low mileage I would bet that quite a few years went by between some of the oil changes so it would have remained in contact with the shells (and everything else) longer than was good for the engine. A little condensation and moderately raised temperature produces ideal conditions for the formation of sulphuric acid in the oil. Short runs or even starting and warming up a bit would be worse than not starting it at all or regular use.
I tried not doing a full rebuild on a VW engine once, it worked well until it needed to be completely taken apart a few months later and done again.
simond
Western Thunderer
thank you all for your opinions, thoughts and musings.
It is interesting that there is horrible damage on one set of shells and very little on the other. This potentially could be, as Col suggested, oil starvation if the big chamber inside the big end journal that acts as a centrifuge has filled up with muck - I guess that in itself is a reason to get the crank out. I can't fathom any other plausible reasons for the difference, unless one of the previous owners put a higher compression piston in the left side only...
I still don't believe it was oil starvation, there is no smearing and no signs of overheating.
I think I have concluded that it needs to come to bits as I suggested in my earlier response to Michael.
If the cause is chemical, it is likely that there is damage to the other whitemetalled bearings, so mains, and camshaft bearings. If I'm stripping them, I might as well replace them, I guess. Probably also want to check the cams themselves for damage, none obvious looking down the tappet holes, but that's not close to scientific, so getting the shaft out, and looking at it properly will be a good thing.
If the cause is oil starvation, then I need to clean the inside of the crank, and strip the oil pump, and of course, check the other bearings (and journals) for wear & damage.
In both cases, if the crank comes out, the camchain case and camchain have to come off, it's only a couple more bolts to take the oil pump off and then it is a MotoGuzzi engine kit.
and as nearly everyone suggests, if I'm going to spend my life worrying about it, I might as well just do it. it's only time and money. And if by some miracle, Europe is open for visitors in September, I will not spend the intended trip to Mandello worrying about it.
(funnily enough, a couple of the Guzzi forum contributors thought I'd probably get away with bunging new shells on and putting it back together)
I've stripped as much as I can with the engine in the frame, I now have to take the bike off the engine. Put sump back on, remove seat and nosecone, and jack up the engine. Disconnect rear brake caliper and tie it to the frame, undo back end and remove swinging arm & UJs. Disconnect remaining electrics, remove battery, detach frame rails front and rear and lift bike off engine & gearbox.
Should be in bits by tea-time tomorrow. Not sure where I'm going to store everything, the garage is already full, it's worse than my workbench.
more soon,
ride safe
Simon
It is interesting that there is horrible damage on one set of shells and very little on the other. This potentially could be, as Col suggested, oil starvation if the big chamber inside the big end journal that acts as a centrifuge has filled up with muck - I guess that in itself is a reason to get the crank out. I can't fathom any other plausible reasons for the difference, unless one of the previous owners put a higher compression piston in the left side only...
I still don't believe it was oil starvation, there is no smearing and no signs of overheating.
I think I have concluded that it needs to come to bits as I suggested in my earlier response to Michael.
If the cause is chemical, it is likely that there is damage to the other whitemetalled bearings, so mains, and camshaft bearings. If I'm stripping them, I might as well replace them, I guess. Probably also want to check the cams themselves for damage, none obvious looking down the tappet holes, but that's not close to scientific, so getting the shaft out, and looking at it properly will be a good thing.
If the cause is oil starvation, then I need to clean the inside of the crank, and strip the oil pump, and of course, check the other bearings (and journals) for wear & damage.
In both cases, if the crank comes out, the camchain case and camchain have to come off, it's only a couple more bolts to take the oil pump off and then it is a MotoGuzzi engine kit.
and as nearly everyone suggests, if I'm going to spend my life worrying about it, I might as well just do it. it's only time and money. And if by some miracle, Europe is open for visitors in September, I will not spend the intended trip to Mandello worrying about it.
(funnily enough, a couple of the Guzzi forum contributors thought I'd probably get away with bunging new shells on and putting it back together)
I've stripped as much as I can with the engine in the frame, I now have to take the bike off the engine. Put sump back on, remove seat and nosecone, and jack up the engine. Disconnect rear brake caliper and tie it to the frame, undo back end and remove swinging arm & UJs. Disconnect remaining electrics, remove battery, detach frame rails front and rear and lift bike off engine & gearbox.
Should be in bits by tea-time tomorrow. Not sure where I'm going to store everything, the garage is already full, it's worse than my workbench.
more soon,
ride safe
Simon
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
Probably worth getting genuine quality shells from a Guzzi specialist Simon, some after market parts can be doubtful these days especially those from the other side of Russia !
I know your probably not in the mood for a re-build but I'm getting itchy fingers talking about this, I did enjoy a nice engine strip and re-build back when.......
Col.
I know your probably not in the mood for a re-build but I'm getting itchy fingers talking about this, I did enjoy a nice engine strip and re-build back when.......
Col.
simond
Western Thunderer
hi Col,
I didn't want to have to do it, but realistically, it's a valuable bike, I've had it for over thirty years, and a bit of TLC is well overdue. My only concern is that I am way out of practice - I've built quite a few engines over the years, A series BLMCs mostly, so something as agricultural as a Guzzi should hold no fears!
The shells are ordered from Gutsibits, I hope they're ok, everything else they've supplied over the years has been fine. I expect they are on the kitchen worktop already! Prices are also there or thereabouts, and they have stock, mostly. The tappets arrived yesterday, they are not polished, they appear to be nitrided, matt black slightly "porous" finish.
I hope the mains are ok, because they would be about £350 (and are not in stock), the tappets and shells were £300.
Haven't checked cam bearings yet, camchain about £70.
It was loads cheaper back when...
I didn't want to have to do it, but realistically, it's a valuable bike, I've had it for over thirty years, and a bit of TLC is well overdue. My only concern is that I am way out of practice - I've built quite a few engines over the years, A series BLMCs mostly, so something as agricultural as a Guzzi should hold no fears!
The shells are ordered from Gutsibits, I hope they're ok, everything else they've supplied over the years has been fine. I expect they are on the kitchen worktop already! Prices are also there or thereabouts, and they have stock, mostly. The tappets arrived yesterday, they are not polished, they appear to be nitrided, matt black slightly "porous" finish.
I hope the mains are ok, because they would be about £350 (and are not in stock), the tappets and shells were £300.
Haven't checked cam bearings yet, camchain about £70.
It was loads cheaper back when...
Focalplane
Western Thunderer
Just had a quick scan and may not have covered everything but is it possible that during the India layup one bearing was in the oil and the other was dry?
I believe in the saying that an engine should be started up and driven regularly all year, no winter lay ups. When I left my classic Range Rover unused for a couple of months even the tires would complain for a few miles until they remembered they were supposed to be round. Yes, I do believe that cars (and bikes) have instincts!
I believe in the saying that an engine should be started up and driven regularly all year, no winter lay ups. When I left my classic Range Rover unused for a couple of months even the tires would complain for a few miles until they remembered they were supposed to be round. Yes, I do believe that cars (and bikes) have instincts!
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
Does make you wonder about combustion engines sometimes. I've been looking at some aircraft rescues on YouTube of late, one inparticularly, was a '45 Lockheed PV2 Harpoon which had spent it's civilian life as a fire bomber, stood for 16 years without turning a prop.
They spent 10 months preparing it for flight which one would expect the oil was drained completely and replaced, that's fine but as Simon has found out things corrode and I would feel a bit nervous of flying an aircraft out on engines that have not been taken apart and checked after all that time.
Well they flew it out successfully to it's new home where it will be restored for display flying.
Col.
They spent 10 months preparing it for flight which one would expect the oil was drained completely and replaced, that's fine but as Simon has found out things corrode and I would feel a bit nervous of flying an aircraft out on engines that have not been taken apart and checked after all that time.
Well they flew it out successfully to it's new home where it will be restored for display flying.
Col.
simond
Western Thunderer
hi Paul,
no, not possible.
The engine is a 90 degree v-twin. Both big ends are on the same journal, which appears to be in perfect condition, there’s probably 40 or 50mm between the big end nuts at BDC and the oil.
I think the bad do was running it occasionally and not changing the oil often enough. Fingers crossed the mains will be ok.
Atb
Simon