Liver & Fry's workbench
- Thread starter Liver & Fry
- Start date
Liver & Fry
Western Thunderer
I used Humbrol 27 on both this and the Dia.1 open - It matches the shade used by Rapido on their L&Y liveried gunpowder van quite nicely!
- James
L&Y gunpowder van
Liver & Fry
Western Thunderer
Now, bear with me on this one, for it will be a slow burn, but it was intentionally planned as such to fill the gap in my absence whilst I work on the next module of my PgCert...
Welcome to Part 1 of what I'm dubbing the 'Rainbow Van Trilogy'. It's not quite the Cornetto Trilogy and in theory it should be a tetralogy, but the existence of the 4th vehicle in kit form seems to be but a dream!
In 1906, the L&Y dabbled with the concept of assigning individual liveries to vans built for, and designated to, special traffic; pastel green for fish, pastel blue for butter, pastel pink for meat, white for refrigerator vans and vermillion for gunpowder vans. This was abandoned in 1908 and the food related vehicles gained white, whilst the gunpowder vans gained the standard grey livery.
It is in this latter form that Rapido released an L&Y variant of their "not-quite-mink" gunpowder van. At the time I purchased one simply on the basis that it was a wagon in L&Y livery and it would go with other regionally appropriate vehicles I planned to collect/build.
Then, during the Dia.3 rebuild, it occurred to me - Why don't I backdate the model to the short lived red livery? After all, I have plans for other special liveried vans, so why not add to the ridiculous colour spectrum that will be on display?
And so, in between working on the Dia.3, I slowly began working towards this:
Powsides do a sheet of transfers specifically for the gunpowder vans, including the "To be returned to Wakefield when empty" markings. I have ordered one of these, but I am aware of (and sympathetic to) the difficulties currently faced by them and the delay in service. Unfortunately I am also aware that, occasionally, the quality of some of the finer decals can be lost, with parts rubbing off before arrival. As such, you'll note I removed the main transfers, but kept the "return" notice, alongside the works plate on the solebar and the detail of the raised warning notice on the door. The intention being to paint around these, but with a view to removing and painting over the "return" notice should the powsides decals be suitable upon arrival.
That's where I shall leave things for now, but hopefully that gives you an idea of what's to come. All I'll say is, it's bright!
- James
Welcome to Part 1 of what I'm dubbing the 'Rainbow Van Trilogy'. It's not quite the Cornetto Trilogy and in theory it should be a tetralogy, but the existence of the 4th vehicle in kit form seems to be but a dream!
In 1906, the L&Y dabbled with the concept of assigning individual liveries to vans built for, and designated to, special traffic; pastel green for fish, pastel blue for butter, pastel pink for meat, white for refrigerator vans and vermillion for gunpowder vans. This was abandoned in 1908 and the food related vehicles gained white, whilst the gunpowder vans gained the standard grey livery.
It is in this latter form that Rapido released an L&Y variant of their "not-quite-mink" gunpowder van. At the time I purchased one simply on the basis that it was a wagon in L&Y livery and it would go with other regionally appropriate vehicles I planned to collect/build.
Then, during the Dia.3 rebuild, it occurred to me - Why don't I backdate the model to the short lived red livery? After all, I have plans for other special liveried vans, so why not add to the ridiculous colour spectrum that will be on display?
And so, in between working on the Dia.3, I slowly began working towards this:
Powsides do a sheet of transfers specifically for the gunpowder vans, including the "To be returned to Wakefield when empty" markings. I have ordered one of these, but I am aware of (and sympathetic to) the difficulties currently faced by them and the delay in service. Unfortunately I am also aware that, occasionally, the quality of some of the finer decals can be lost, with parts rubbing off before arrival. As such, you'll note I removed the main transfers, but kept the "return" notice, alongside the works plate on the solebar and the detail of the raised warning notice on the door. The intention being to paint around these, but with a view to removing and painting over the "return" notice should the powsides decals be suitable upon arrival.
That's where I shall leave things for now, but hopefully that gives you an idea of what's to come. All I'll say is, it's bright!
- James
L&Y gunpowder van
New
Liver & Fry
Western Thunderer
One quirk of the 1906 special traffic liveries seems to be that the roof colour was that of the body. This was seemingly the case for the green fish vans, and I have seen one other model of a red gunpowder van done this way, and so, without any other evidence to contradict this, I am running on the theory that this method of application was used on all five of the special traffic liveries.
As such, the roof on my van (which it turns out is quite easy to remove!) was the first thing to be painted vermillion. I hope you have your sunglasses on standby...
Royal Mail would be proud, I'm sure!
- James
As such, the roof on my van (which it turns out is quite easy to remove!) was the first thing to be painted vermillion. I hope you have your sunglasses on standby...
Royal Mail would be proud, I'm sure!
- James
L&Y gunpowder van
New
Liver & Fry
Western Thunderer
Painting was a slow and intermittent process, taking place over a good few weeks as and when I could.
It needed a few coats as the grey kept showing through and even then, it isn't wholly covered, although as a result it has given a naturally weathered finish when you look closer, so I'm not too unhappy with it!
I masked off the "return" notices in an effort to save them and, at this point, figured I would be leaving them as they are, but plans did change slightly, on several fronts... More on that another time though!
Still looks like a post box...
- James
It needed a few coats as the grey kept showing through and even then, it isn't wholly covered, although as a result it has given a naturally weathered finish when you look closer, so I'm not too unhappy with it!
I masked off the "return" notices in an effort to save them and, at this point, figured I would be leaving them as they are, but plans did change slightly, on several fronts... More on that another time though!
Still looks like a post box...
- James
L&Y gunpowder van
New
Liver & Fry
Western Thunderer
Having gone to the effort of painting the thing, I then decided to perform surgery (I never said I was doing this in logical order...).
The reason being that, whilst the "generic" mink body certainly passes for an L&Y vehicle, the finer details are just a bit too, well, generic. As such, I surgically removed the buffers and filed back the axleboxes:
Before reprofiling the backs of some whitemetal L&Y B3 boxes by MJT/Dart Castings and fitting them accordingly, along with some 51L L&Y buffers:
I even took the opportunity to replace the wheels with some Alan Gibson split spoke examples:
The van now felt a little closer to what it was meant to be representing, and with minimal paint damage! All that was left was the lettering...
- James
The reason being that, whilst the "generic" mink body certainly passes for an L&Y vehicle, the finer details are just a bit too, well, generic. As such, I surgically removed the buffers and filed back the axleboxes:
Before reprofiling the backs of some whitemetal L&Y B3 boxes by MJT/Dart Castings and fitting them accordingly, along with some 51L L&Y buffers:
I even took the opportunity to replace the wheels with some Alan Gibson split spoke examples:
The van now felt a little closer to what it was meant to be representing, and with minimal paint damage! All that was left was the lettering...
- James
L&Y gunpowder van
New
Liver & Fry
Western Thunderer
Did someone say lettering? Well, best I deliver then...
The 'GUNPOWDER VAN" letters are my usual choice of generic alphabet from Fox (but they match nicely!), whilst the L Y and tare numbers are from a HMRS transfer sheet.
You will note that, in the end, I wasn't wholly convinced by the divide between the red and the grey panel that the "return" notice sits on; so, with some artistic license, I decided to line around it to at least make the colour difference look intentional and (kind of) match the numberplate and warning notice that also have a white border. It's not 100% accurate, but then again this is a generic base model. If the Powsides transfers are suitable upon their eventual arrival, I'll redo this corner in red and apply accordingly. But for now, I am happy with it!
I have, momentarily, caught back up with my studies and I am about to take two weeks leave from work, so the next project will be "live" and it'll be business as usual for a bit.
- James
The 'GUNPOWDER VAN" letters are my usual choice of generic alphabet from Fox (but they match nicely!), whilst the L Y and tare numbers are from a HMRS transfer sheet.
You will note that, in the end, I wasn't wholly convinced by the divide between the red and the grey panel that the "return" notice sits on; so, with some artistic license, I decided to line around it to at least make the colour difference look intentional and (kind of) match the numberplate and warning notice that also have a white border. It's not 100% accurate, but then again this is a generic base model. If the Powsides transfers are suitable upon their eventual arrival, I'll redo this corner in red and apply accordingly. But for now, I am happy with it!
I have, momentarily, caught back up with my studies and I am about to take two weeks leave from work, so the next project will be "live" and it'll be business as usual for a bit.
- James
L&Y Dia.72 Fish Van
New
Liver & Fry
Western Thunderer
I've certainly started something of an L&Y wagon theme now, and having been thinking about "getting around to it" for sometime, it makes sense to crack on and complete the "rainbow vans" as I've dubbed them.
So which better kit to start with then the one that inspired all of this? A Dia.72 Fish Van, by David Geen.
Now, I'd like to address the elephant in the room. The kit represents the 2nd batch of this type of van, built to a width of 8' rather than 7' 6 1/2" of the originals, and with a "slight different sliding door arrangement". The "narrow" vans are known to have been painted green, but there is uncertainty over whether the 8' wide vans ever did. If so, it's likely only the very first of the batch were. Because I have no real option in terms of kits available, because 5 1/2" in 4mm scale is scarcely noticeable, and because no one can 100% confirm I'm wrong for doing so, this van will be painted green and given an early number from that batch.
With that in mind, here's what I had to work with:
The brass etches are additional parts I acquired from @John Duffy of Scottish Wagon Works in June last year. The chassis etch is for a 10' 6" wheelbase (the Dia.72 is 10') but I hope to use some of the common L&Y underframe parts to create something better than if I solely relied on the whitemetal parts of the original kit.
The first task was to clean the sides and ends of any flash, as well as removing the cast V-hangers, as these will be replaced with brass ones from the etch:
I then began construction of the main body:
And latterly fitted a floor section:
That brings us up to the present where I am about to sit and put together the compensating W-iron units:
I may also take the opportunity to build the second set of units for the Dia.64 Butter Van that is due to be built next.
- James
So which better kit to start with then the one that inspired all of this? A Dia.72 Fish Van, by David Geen.
Now, I'd like to address the elephant in the room. The kit represents the 2nd batch of this type of van, built to a width of 8' rather than 7' 6 1/2" of the originals, and with a "slight different sliding door arrangement". The "narrow" vans are known to have been painted green, but there is uncertainty over whether the 8' wide vans ever did. If so, it's likely only the very first of the batch were. Because I have no real option in terms of kits available, because 5 1/2" in 4mm scale is scarcely noticeable, and because no one can 100% confirm I'm wrong for doing so, this van will be painted green and given an early number from that batch.
With that in mind, here's what I had to work with:
The brass etches are additional parts I acquired from @John Duffy of Scottish Wagon Works in June last year. The chassis etch is for a 10' 6" wheelbase (the Dia.72 is 10') but I hope to use some of the common L&Y underframe parts to create something better than if I solely relied on the whitemetal parts of the original kit.
The first task was to clean the sides and ends of any flash, as well as removing the cast V-hangers, as these will be replaced with brass ones from the etch:
I then began construction of the main body:
And latterly fitted a floor section:
That brings us up to the present where I am about to sit and put together the compensating W-iron units:
I may also take the opportunity to build the second set of units for the Dia.64 Butter Van that is due to be built next.
- James
L&Y Dia.72 Fish Van
New
Liver & Fry
Western Thunderer
Spent the afternoon making up the compensation W-iron units for both the Dia 72 and the Dia.64. The spring carriers were fiddly but surprisingly robust when done and having fitted a test wheelset into one W-iron, they seem pretty effective!
With that, I fitted a set to the floor of the Dia.72:
Followed by buffers and V-hangers, in the classic double V arrangement of the L&Y (or so I've learnt... It's all rather new to me!)
This made me come to a moment of realisation: the kit (or at least the one I've acquired) doesn't include central push rods for operating clasp brakes, despite the diagram in the instructions showing them as part of the brake rigging arrangement. I'll have to go looking for an alternative...
Equally, I have axlebox covers, springs and plain spoke wheels on order, including extras to allow me to do the Dia.64 as well.
Anyway, that's enough for one day! Time to retire...
- James
With that, I fitted a set to the floor of the Dia.72:
Followed by buffers and V-hangers, in the classic double V arrangement of the L&Y (or so I've learnt... It's all rather new to me!)
This made me come to a moment of realisation: the kit (or at least the one I've acquired) doesn't include central push rods for operating clasp brakes, despite the diagram in the instructions showing them as part of the brake rigging arrangement. I'll have to go looking for an alternative...
Equally, I have axlebox covers, springs and plain spoke wheels on order, including extras to allow me to do the Dia.64 as well.
Anyway, that's enough for one day! Time to retire...
- James
L&Y Dia.72 Fish Van
New
Liver & Fry
Western Thunderer
I didn't quite expect things to move like they did - I sat down for an evening to assess what needed to be done regarding the brake gear and by the end I'd ended up putting it together (although I'm inclined to say "bodged").
Clear photos showing the underframe of the Dia.72s are limited, but thankfully the instructions came with the following diagrams to help explain the L&Y double-V brake arrangement:
Using the original whitemetal baseplate as a guide, I drilled two holes in the underside of the wagon for the vacuum and Westinghouse cylinders:
I then used the brake shoe push rods from the SWW etch to craft the missing central push rod:
Assessment of the parts provided and a test fit of the cylinders led me to the realisation there was no way of connecting the Westinghouse cylinder to the crossbar, so my attention turned to the linkage provided for the double-V arrangement:
I never used this, in preference of the brass equivalent which looked finer. However, by cutting one lug off, it would line up perfectly with the end of the Westinghouse cylinder, if the cylinder was positioned at an angle (and lo and behold, the instructions state that the cylinder "hangs at an angle and just clears the axle at that end").
So, this was the ensemble of parts:
And this was what I made of them:
The vacuum cylinder leans at an angle too, to align with its own push rod. However, this matches the side-view drawing supplied.
That was the effort of Monday evening, but I've since painted the underside, as well as the spring carriers for the axles:
The wires on the W-irons are to ensure the holes for the axle keeps stay open.
There is little I can do now until the various parts on order arrive. I have started reading over the Dia.64 instructions to fill the time...
- James
Clear photos showing the underframe of the Dia.72s are limited, but thankfully the instructions came with the following diagrams to help explain the L&Y double-V brake arrangement:
Using the original whitemetal baseplate as a guide, I drilled two holes in the underside of the wagon for the vacuum and Westinghouse cylinders:
I then used the brake shoe push rods from the SWW etch to craft the missing central push rod:
Assessment of the parts provided and a test fit of the cylinders led me to the realisation there was no way of connecting the Westinghouse cylinder to the crossbar, so my attention turned to the linkage provided for the double-V arrangement:
I never used this, in preference of the brass equivalent which looked finer. However, by cutting one lug off, it would line up perfectly with the end of the Westinghouse cylinder, if the cylinder was positioned at an angle (and lo and behold, the instructions state that the cylinder "hangs at an angle and just clears the axle at that end").
So, this was the ensemble of parts:
And this was what I made of them:
The vacuum cylinder leans at an angle too, to align with its own push rod. However, this matches the side-view drawing supplied.
That was the effort of Monday evening, but I've since painted the underside, as well as the spring carriers for the axles:
The wires on the W-irons are to ensure the holes for the axle keeps stay open.
There is little I can do now until the various parts on order arrive. I have started reading over the Dia.64 instructions to fill the time...
- James
Overseer
Western Thunderer
James
The brake gear knitting is looking good. Just wondering about the paint on the rear of the W irons and the spring carriers - I think the paint will stick and stop the springs springing. Bare metal with some graphite works well.
Liver & Fry
Western Thunderer
My logic had been to hide any unpainted brass, but, logically, the two faces in contact will hide one another and I hadn't actually considered this fact despite it now seeming obvious!
I'll look to correct it, thank you!
- James
Sorry, but that Westinghouse brke cylinder is just plain wrong! So far as I am aware, these things were always ridgidly mounted to the underframe - remembering that they "push" whereas a vac pan "pulls". Of course if someone can prove me wrong with a photo, I will graciously retreat to eat my hat ... Otherwise, I think they always look like this:-
Overseer
Western Thunderer
I doubt any hat eating will be required. I was too concerned about the paint to really look at the position of the Westinghouse cylinder.
The Westinghouse cylinder should always be mounted horizontally. The pushrod usually connects to a horizontal fulcrum beam with a second rod connecting to an arm on the transverse operating rod. I would expect the cylinder to be mounted so only the lower half is visible behind the solebar. These photos might help, although Westinghouse only fitted, no vacuum to complicate things. @J_F_S 's photo looks like it is a post WW2 NSWGR wagon installation so maybe a bit modern for the van James is building.
I have also attached a pdf of an 1880s wagon GA drawing which shows a typical layout well. Although the wagon illustrated was never built thousands of the same underframe were built in the thousands.
The Westinghouse cylinder should always be mounted horizontally. The pushrod usually connects to a horizontal fulcrum beam with a second rod connecting to an arm on the transverse operating rod. I would expect the cylinder to be mounted so only the lower half is visible behind the solebar. These photos might help, although Westinghouse only fitted, no vacuum to complicate things. @J_F_S 's photo looks like it is a post WW2 NSWGR wagon installation so maybe a bit modern for the van James is building.
I have also attached a pdf of an 1880s wagon GA drawing which shows a typical layout well. Although the wagon illustrated was never built thousands of the same underframe were built in the thousands.
Liver & Fry
Western Thunderer
I confess I was about to start quoting the line from the instructions which states it was hung at an angle. However, I have just spotted a c*ck up on my end that has majorly exacerbated the angle it sits at. I'm currently on a train to London, but later I'll attempt to correct it and will explain myself then...
Thank you both for highlighting it. I dont claim to be an expert and I'm always happy to learn from my mistakes!
- James
I suspect you have noticed that the operating crank for the Westo cylinder should point towards, rather than away from the wagon floor. As it currently is, the cylinder is pushing the brake 'off' rather than 'on'. I expect when you correct that, the cylinder will be horizontal. Kit instructions are often less than helpful if you don't know the protoype inside-out!
Liver & Fry
Western Thunderer
Precisely that! And I've spent the day bugged by it! But, it's better to know and be able to correct it, than not...
- James
L&Y Dia.72 Fish Van
New
Liver & Fry
Western Thunderer
Westinghouse cylinder aside, last night I fitted the wheelsets and clasp brake shoes:
Just need to sort the axleboxes as I didn't have time last night to do so!
- James
Just need to sort the axleboxes as I didn't have time last night to do so!
- James
L&Y Dia.72 Fish Van
New
Liver & Fry
Western Thunderer
Right, let's try that again, shall we?
Ironically, upon arriving home from London this evening, I found a copy of "Lancashire and Yorkshire Wagons Volume 2" through my letterbox, having ordered it for information on another potential project.
It has answered a question; the Westinghouse cylinder did indeed hang at a slight angle, in the opposite direction to the angle I had put on:
Of course, I have realised the error that led to me arranging it how I did (see above) and so, with a bravely placed cut, some filing and re-drilling of the mounting hole, I've reconfigured the Westinghouse cylinder to suit:
Hopefully folk will agree it looks better and will accept my apologies for my previous ignorance on the matter!
I still need to sort those axleboxes...
- James
Ironically, upon arriving home from London this evening, I found a copy of "Lancashire and Yorkshire Wagons Volume 2" through my letterbox, having ordered it for information on another potential project.
It has answered a question; the Westinghouse cylinder did indeed hang at a slight angle, in the opposite direction to the angle I had put on:
Of course, I have realised the error that led to me arranging it how I did (see above) and so, with a bravely placed cut, some filing and re-drilling of the mounting hole, I've reconfigured the Westinghouse cylinder to suit:
Hopefully folk will agree it looks better and will accept my apologies for my previous ignorance on the matter!
I still need to sort those axleboxes...
- James